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Sturgeon's House

The 6.8 SPC Haters Club


Sturgeon

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  • 2 weeks later...

Derp. I was wondering why everything said 4 months old and folks seemed hot to trot about the AR...

 

Derp. Derp. Derp. Derp.

 

 

Yeah. I wasn't able to get in on the AK-47 goodness. Mostly because I don't strongly identify with the Kalashnikov. Yeah. It's a great design, robust and ubiquitous in any theater of modern warfare. The AK-74 is pretty much all anyone could ask for in a weapon that you want to arm LOTS of guys with. And in the 1970s and 1980s it was the COOL gun to arm bad guys with in any movie since everyone knew how much better it was than the M16.

 

As I've mentioned before, a couple wars in the Middle East, an influx of variable quality AKs into the American civilian market and the ARevolution has taken the shine off the AK and it no longer has the sex appeal it once possessed. But there isn't anything inherently wrong with it as a weapon.

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Derp. I was wondering why everything said 4 months old and folks seemed hot to trot about the AR...

 

Derp. Derp. Derp. Derp.

 

 

Yeah. I wasn't able to get in on the AK-47 goodness. Mostly because I don't strongly identify with the Kalashnikov. Yeah. It's a great design, robust and ubiquitous in any theater of modern warfare. The AK-74 is pretty much all anyone could ask for in a weapon that you want to arm LOTS of guys with. And in the 1970s and 1980s it was the COOL gun to arm bad guys with in any movie since everyone knew how much better it was than the M16.

 

As I've mentioned before, a couple wars in the Middle East, an influx of variable quality AKs into the American civilian market and the ARevolution has taken the shine off the AK and it no longer has the sex appeal it once possessed. But there isn't anything inherently wrong with it as a weapon.

 

AR-15s are cheaper and quicker to make, actually, and more fully take advantage of modern production techniques. That's part of what I find so endearing about the AK. :)

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So we get less recoil and more "force" out of the same basic weapon just because H&K sprinkled Teutonic fairy dust on it? Why AREN'T you writing about this? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

Also, I want a damn parody article about the Bundeswehr adopting the Dreyse needle-gun or something similarly redonkulous. I mean if TFB uses filler like shooting Easter candy or the infamous "Hey, what is this gun?" articles, then there isn't any reason why we can't get a belly full of laughs (while also maybe learning something).

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Not to be a Philistine, but I am a fan of the P90 and do not think that it needs some crazy boost in power to be effective.

 

In essence, I believe that the kinetic hand weapon has ended it useful life, and that the P90 represents a useful departure point from a logistics chain point of view because it can be chambered in pistols - and I class kinetic weapons as defensive envelop weapons.  600 extra FPS in a P90 is not needed.  It handles engagements at under 200 meters now. 

 

The P90 and 5.7 pistols are the weapon used by soldiers for clearing buildings, guard duty, snap shooting in the initial contact phase of combat, and for other work in the 200 meter defensive envelope.  They are not the power of the unit.  Imagine a German squad in WW2 where the MG42 was the core, and half the squad would be lugging Panzerfausts around.

 

Create a basic squad format that looks like this:

 

Grenadiers x6

Marksman x1

GPMG x1

Rockateer x1

 

Each P90 carrier has 1 load for the GPMG, 2 rocket grenades for the Rockateer, and 5 kilos of advanced rifle grenades (10 grenades each).  As a defensive weapon the P90 is used for immediate suppression of enemy in close contact.  The rifle grenades rain hate down on the enemy from 30 to 300 meters.  The GPMG, Marksman, and Rockateer are for engagements up to 800 meters.  From 200 meters to the horizon advanced delivered weaponry take care of business.

 

 

This is not to say everyone is not correct about the P90 being a bit weak.  But the above squad can for at least five minutes land as much explosives as a battery of 60mm mortars on an enemy.  And unlike the 60mm team their first grenade is off in the first thirty second of contact.

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I don't mind the P90, but suggestions of using it and similar weapons as the primary kinetic energy infantry small arms are... Radical, certainly.

The truth is, the P90 and the MP7 both have atrocious ballistics; while they can technically kill you at 200m, it doesn't take very much at all to stop them from doing so. The aim of those weapons is admirable; I think the pursuit of smaller, lighter infantry weapons designed for 200m/300m/400m combat is reasonable, but you have to meet requirements first. I don't think either the 5.7 or 4.6 do. 5.56 does, and it's not the smallest thing that could, so the 4.6 and 5.7 may represent going "too far" in the right direction.

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My theory is radical, but untested except by special forces, who of course choose their battlefields carefully and use training to get the best from their weapons.  I propose it merely as a route to look into.  

 

That sort of thing is clearly something to consider, but I think there are still necessary requirements for infantry rifles. The bayonet analogy is helpful, but you can only push it so far. At the end of the day, the rifle is still relevant as a suppression device, if not as a casualty-producing machine.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have awful opinions, but if you want something roughly the size of a P90 to put out something close to rifle while still fitting into a pistol, wouldn't .22 Spitfire be a workable solution, if not a better decision than 5.7x28? 3.25g @ 820m/s is quite a bit better than what the FN round is capable of anyway.

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I think if you're goung that small, you substantially do not want to be .22 cal anymore.

If you think about it, all this discussion is exactly what was being thrown around in the late Fifties and the Sixties with SPIW. Each rifleman gets a grenade launcher, and is armed with a pissweak caliber that means his rifle is pretty much just a flat-shooting SMG with better penetration and lighter ammunition.

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