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Militarysta

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Everything posted by Militarysta

  1. Militarysta

    The Leopard 2 Thread

    Nice promo of the Rheinmettal Leopard 2. In this case polish Leopard 2PL: Leopard 2PL in english was describe in this exelent site: http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/09/updates-on-pt-16-and-leopard-2-pl.html ============ Now in polish military press im publishing article about Leopard-2 estimatous protection and it's modernisation. Conclusion propbly will not be suprising - Leopard 2A0-A4 was very good protected against soviet erly and middle 80's ATGMS and KE rounds. My own estimatous (based on multiple sources - some public open some not) is giving Leopard -2A0-A4 sucht protection level: 450-500mm RHA vs KE up to 860mm RHA vs HEAT Since 96 tank from 6 btach (2A4) protection was improved but it's difficult to estimatous. What is funny - I have very strong evidence that in 1994 german special armour (thick as Leopard-2A4 front) was able to stop LKE I (DM43) round from 2000m, so whit circa 640-700mm RHA penetration (@60. plate)... Helenic Leopard-2A6HEL whintstand 28 shots from 120mm APFSDS... etc.
  2. About tank guns and amunition, hope it will be interesting topic :-) In penetration data I will base on russian sources -they are ussaly most credible (the best). I will ussaly give value for monolith steel plate slopped on 60@ - it's the best scenario for APFSDS penetrator. In sucht scenario (slopped on 60@ plate) penetration value can be bigger at even 17-20% then on 0.degree plate - this is caused by "asymmetry loads back surface" of the plate): First: M829 M829A1 M829A2 M829A3 M829A4 M829: DOI: 1985 penetration at 2km, on plate slopped by 60@: 540-560mm RHA: M829A1 DOI - 1989 (in some sources - 1988) penetration: at 2km, on plate slopped by 60@: circa 700mm RHA this round was to weak to overcome T-80U and T-80UD and T-72B m.1989 whit Kontakt-5 ERA, what was "suprisly" discover on tests in circa 1994. The same story was whit DM43 prototypes.. M829A2 DOI - 1992 penetration: at 2km, on plate slopped by 60@: circa 740mm RHA Fist US round whit composite sabot. (lack good photos) insted of this: KE-W so M829A1 but whit WHA penetrator, and KEW-E3 so M829A2 whit WHA long rod. M829A3 DOI - 2003 penetration: at 2km, on plate slopped by 60@: propably circa 800mm RHA, but is not sure value, round devleoped to everpas heavy ERA but whit unkown result M829A4 DOI -2016 :-) penetration - no idea It's very interesting round data link is for APFSDS round?! I have a hypothesis... Ok so it have data link to be programmed, it is said to be capable to defeat 3rd generation heavy ERA (Relikt, Knife, etc.) and active protection systems (hard kill). It seems that focus is primary on defeating heavy ERA. But then again, why do you need to program just a long rod fired by a big gun? There are few options: - Gudining the round, - Precursor, - "Intelligent" control over propelant charge ignition (dependant on propelant temperature, environment temperature, gun service life, range to target etc.) And truth to be told hypothesis that there is some sort of precursor in the rod is the only hypothesis that makes sense. Control over propelant charge ignition is not needed and probably not possible at all with current technology, besides the M829A4 (and all newer US ammo types for 120mm smoothbore) use insensitive propelant charges. And it is nowhere mentioned in any document avaiable for public. Guiding the rod to target? Perhaps possible from technical point of view, but why? Again it was nowhere said that FCS for M1A2SEPv3 have ability to guide any type of rounds. And manouvering of the rod during flight means loss of a lot of energy, even if this manouvering would be done to "cheat" the APS for example. So perhaps the option is to somehow use a precursor that is "fired ahead" of the main rod. So how the rod designs looks like here? The rod is made from two segments, the "precursor" and the main rod behind it. How they are connected? it might be some sort of polymer, glue that can be weakened by heat and the release precursor, and during flight rods heat up pretty nicely. The precursor can also be relased based on a simple difference of speed between it and the main rod, and main rod can be slowed down by some sort of additional fins (aerodynamic breaks) released at specific point programmed by FCS. In such case precuros would initiate ERA and the main rod would have a clear way to main armor of the target. How to cheat APS tough? Counting that precursor will be qualified by APS as threat and APS will be initiated, creating a time gap in APS reaction so it won't be able to counter the main rod? Possible yes, but then there is question, if APS will just not ignore the precursor, and this might happen, now of course there is a question how dangerous is precursor itself? For a MBT or vehicle with similiar levels of protection, for it's front it won't be dangerous in most cases, sides? If they do not have any addon armor, very possible. For lightweight platforms, yeah precursor also will be dangerous. Of course these are only hypothesis, and we will see if other nations will also design APFSDS rounds with data link. Then we might get closer to the truth. Right now, treat it as food for thoughts. of course this data link coud be placed only for security resons, as one person on TankNet had wrote: :-) ps. prefragmentet APFSDS during flying exist now, as smal-scale models and test object:
  3. Mostly like Valyron said - in polish terrain condition and whit polish army structure - Spike is mucht better.
  4. Militarysta

    StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

    I will - Polish industry is sick. If somebody had claimed that Revolution AMAP armour + old special armour will give values beyond 2A5 and on par whit 2A7 but the same person/instytute haven't idea that armour pacage B and D is competly diffrent and in polish 2A4 is "B" it's mean that somebody shoud be layoff... :/
  5. Thanks. To be honest I had mucht more but all in polish and mostly in paper: Publication lists for sucht instytution: General Tadeusz Kościuszko  Military University of Land Forces
  6. Polish FragOut! edition whit my article about Javelin vs Spike (page 52) https://fragout.uberflip.com/i/1055276-frag-out-magazine-22-pl/0? In polish but it may be intresting for users here. Whole is based on Javelin and Spike test in Poland - both system are offered in "Pustelnik" program for new "light" ATGM for WOT forces and for Army.
  7. Militarysta

    Polish Armoured Vehicles

    Firstly - Strong Europe Tank Challenge - polish platoon take a part in this competition. http://11ldkpanc.wp.mil.pl/pl/101_2295.html (Through these two days the soldiers of 34 Armoured Cavalry Brigade from Zagan performed the most important competition of the competition. It was carrying out activities platoon in offensive and defensive operations. As a platoon conducting defensive operations have earned the highest number of points, ranking the first place. However, during the attack they gave way only to the best platoon in Germany. Galery: http://11ldkpanc.wp.mil.pl/pl/4_1057.html nice photos from there: Today will be known winner od the Strong Europe Tank Challenge
  8. Militarysta

    Polish Armoured Vehicles

    Well 2PL modernisation is in progres. Despite fact that polish industry had obvious problem whit absorb german know-how in some areas (and PCO thermal camras factory is "stuck") there are some serious doubts about some Rheinmettal components for 2PL when 2PL faild some tests in Poland. Unfortunatly polish army had more problems then tanks - decapitated HQ by political cleansing, completly stupid military movment to estern border, creating new forces (terytorial forces -wanabe comando seal spetznaz killer ASGay), dying naval, only very small number operational F-16 and junky MiG-29 and Su-22 whit seriously safety incidents (toxis air conditionig in pilot mask, not working K36 etc). More or less polish army is fucked mostly by politicians who are trying to incarase PA numbers but whit constans $ level - ok it's 1,98-2% GDP but whole Poland made GDP like circa germans Bavaria Land... Tank, firearms, ATGMS etc are less important then whole system, and this in Poland have cancer :/ - mostly by political manual steereing by completly idiots who firstly where afraid about "army loyalyty" in relatio to new "Law and Justice" (PiS) goverment in Poland (since 2015), so they just decapitayted HQ by retired ca 70% generlas and then they had started to manually reform Polis Army and military industry. What is completly faild in both aspects. One very simple example - in Poland where 34 Arm. Tk. Bde on Leopard 2A5 tanks in Żagań City (western border - close to L2A5 rebuild base in Poznań City and whit big trening ground whit modern trening center). All in one place whit 15 miles near 10 Tk Bde (On. 2A4 Leopards). Two batalion in 34 bde, all after OPEVAL and certificated in NATO. New MOD and PM in 2015 had decide that "estern border is not protect against Russian attack" and they had decide to move whole brigade to Warshaw (where was in deep reserve 1 Tk Bde) . In Warshaw (Wesoła city) ther is no infrastructure, nor trening ground for more then one regiment. And teh put whole Tk. Bde... And of course it's not just "moving" but forming 1 Warsaw Tk Bde on new tanks. The result is dismount 34 Tk. Bde and 1 Tk Bde is not forming on Leo2A5 still. Maybe in 2020 tehy will be redy for opeval. But im doubt. Of course the whole general staff protested so Law and Justice MOD just retired whole general staff... And this is only one SMALL example of how fucked is polish army now. Other example - Polish PGZ military industry - since 2015 the had five diffrent GM and CEO and whole upper menagment where changed six time in complete personal composition! During only 3 years!. And of course - those all GM's and CEOs and managment where not experts - they just Law and Justice party members or brown nose close to the Kaczyński (Law and Justice chief) or MOD or PM. Really whe have here more seriously problems then only Leopard 2A4... :/
  9. Militarysta

    Polish Armoured Vehicles

    Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division. Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer Rafał Mniedło:
  10. I don't see pictures. Generally I can't see ictures hosted there -what's the reson?
  11. Militarysta

    Polish Armoured Vehicles

    My translation of the first sentense from the middle paragraph for nromal language for users here: "Was developed and manufacured full welding aluminia line, was bought CNC center, it was preapared full equipment for Hitfist 30P production line."
  12. Militarysta

    Polish Armoured Vehicles

    Yes, many t(h)anks! - Those are this old photos from NowaTechnika Wojskowa Magazine. The turret zitadele is welded in Poland i ZM Bumar Łabędy. Whit Al alloys. For me is unkown source of Al plates, but there are welded in ZM BŁ.
  13. Militarysta

    Polish Armoured Vehicles

    Nope :-) Hitfist 30P is made of aluminum and welding is in Poland. In NTW where photos from Bumar factory from welding turret. I had posted them on DFI many years ago. If I found them I will post it here.
  14. Militarysta

    Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!

    No idea, most of them are taken from Bauman book (2006 Moscow) and they are put ther based on "unkown" criteria. Thats the problem whit, in theory realible sources. Whit polish WITU is the same - sometimes they put something shamefully mistaken but generally it's good source.
  15. Militarysta

    Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!

    Ok, so I should correct this tabel in case M833, Mathos proofs convinced me. How about DM13 and DM23? @Methos?
  16. Well known APC Rosomak in Afgan. version armour: Orginally it was israeli but after that it was produced by polish company "Mikanit": http://www.mikanit.com.pl/produkty/oslony-balistyczne.html Now, we know patent draws and description: Composition: 2 mm HHS + air + 6,7 mm HHS + 5 mm composite + 5 mm composite + 5 mm composite + 3,5 mm HHS + 35 mm air gap + 3,5 mm HHS + 5 mm composite + 5 mm composite + 3,5 mm HHS + 35 mm air gap + 20 mm aluminium + 5 mm aluminium. There is possibility that layout could be 4+3 (composite) and single composite layer can have up to 6mm thick and single HHS layer can have 4mm thickness. Layers can be separate up to 45mm. Accoding to manufacurer this armour can protect against ATGM and RPG's up to 500mm RHA penetration. Whole armour is combat proven in Afganistan - there are known some "Rosomak" whit 3x RPG's hits diretly in to this armour - no penetration at all, no engine damage.
  17. Militarysta

    Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!

    BTW - Im not sure DM-13. In green book (Bauman 2006 Moscow) is 220mm/60@ but IMHO it could be overestimated. From the other side - some other polish Autors found in british archves that "unkown" german 120mm KE was able to penetrate 450mm steel from 1km in late 70's... so maybe..
  18. Militarysta

    Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!

    My resume that what we known (or not) on one picture:
  19. Militarysta

    APC/IFV armor in details

    No idea, on polish side (factory) it's totall ban for photos and talks about this armour. What is again nonsense couse there are open public reserchees papers whit simmilar solutions for light APC But OK, no talk at all
  20. Militarysta

    APC/IFV armor in details

    Ok, it's not my problem to be honest. As I know finish MoD want's to not public armor photos before whole delivery will be ended but somebody on finish exibition day just make photos ant put it in to net. And now is hot phone between factory and MoD who put this in public. Even funny, but for example in Poland posting this photos can be very problemfull, despite fact that they are "somwehere" on the net.
  21. Militarysta

    APC/IFV armor in details

    Ceramic tiles on aramid fibers. More or less this BMP-2FIN is higly immune to 30mm 2A42 whit 3UBR10
  22. Militarysta

    APC/IFV armor in details

    @Wiedzmin
  23. Militarysta

    Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!

    1984, Leopard 2 in soviet report: As we can see - Soviet assume Leopard 2 armour in 1984 on 400-450mm vs KE and 550-600mm vs HEAT
  24. Militarysta

    APC/IFV armor in details

    Sorry but polish manufacurer this armour is fucken angry about those photo in net. Can You erase it before polish Lubawa SA will contackt your local gestapo? Regards, J. ps. anyway the problem is about your MoD not polish manufacurer, but still - this photos made some peoples mad
  25. Militarysta

    Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!

    I can explain a lot here ;-) 3BM31 and 3BK31M was attempd to incarase penetration in HEAT round without changing working method of cumulative warhed. Now in west we have SC whit 10-12 and even mor CD penetration. In the end of the 80's it was impossible so choosen operation method was diffrend. Precursor in BK31M is just normal precursor - nothing to do here exept that in some sources this precursor have abilitiest to work like in HOT3/PARS so beeing lunched in to target before main round part had optimum stand-off distance. In other - just slinding to have bigger distance. Main charge - here is funny - axuilary cone (second charge) was to just incarase armour penetration. This SC was ignit first and milisecond after ignit was first (main) SC - two jets where joined together and become one long "super jet". Wery sophisticated idea but dead end. Just googled pdf: 23 RD INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON BALLISTICS TARRAGONA, SPAIN 16-20 APRIL 2007 STUDY ON TANDEM SHAPED CHARGES TECHNIQUE Huang zhengxiang 1 , Zhang xianfeng
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