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The "Toxn Is Wrong About Hog Hunting" Thread

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Here is for talking about how Toxn is wrong about hog hunting. Let's begin. ;)
 

 

I'm all for hunting a cape buffalo with a 37mm, but for the fact that you'd ruin the meat, hide and horns (which is hella wasteful).

 

The problem with machinegunning the animals is that you're not delivering aimed shots. You're sure as fuck not doing it from a helo. So some of the hogs are going to get 5 bullets into the vitals and die instantly, and some are going to get a few in the wrong place and limp away to die of sepsis while you and your buddies fly home to jerk off and post youtube videos.

 

For elephant culling we use helicopters, but we also use large-bore rifles or dart guns loaded for instant death (as a by-the-by, an elephant tranq dart will kill a man within seconds). So you're targeting individuals rather than a group, and taking them out one by one. Elephants also make easier targets than hogs by dint of being, you know, fucking enormous.

Who told you that you could not aim a machine gun?

Also, I don't understand, how is the vital hit probability for a machine gun somehow lower than it is for an AR-15, both being fired from helos? Given that helicopter hunting is useful for culling pigs for a variety of reasons (including that you can follow the group more easily, and also drive them into other hunters on the ground), precisely which weapon would you recommend them use instead?

Why are you under the impression that they DON'T target individuals when hog hunting? Of course they do, especially sows.

 

I think you forget that we also have a long tradition of mass hunting to feed our love of biltong and venison. This means hundreds of animals taken in a single night, all by a small group of hunters backed up by what amounts to a mobile slaughter-house. And all with bolt guns.

 

Try again.

 

Not sure how this is relevant.

 

I'm glad that you've retreated to using me as johnny foreigner here. Please feel free to trot out the yoeman farmer argument next, or defend the livelyhood of all the poor, struggling smallholdings that just need the obviously superior solution I'm objecting to to make it through the winter.

 

It's inefficient for the reasons I described above: because you aren't making aimed shots, aren't apportioning shots equally and (potentially) aren't using a calibre suitable for the job. It's going to result in some dead animals, some wounded animals who will die later and some who will walk it off and come back next week.

 

I'm not saying that pest control is clean or neat. Farmers here poison and trap here too. But I'm saying that there should be an obligation to do a good job and at least try to minimise suffering. This means using the most efficient methods (which this isn't), doing your best not to cause gratioutous harm (which this doesn't) and trying to extract as much value from the carcasses as you can (which this doesn't).

 

I think it is time you drop this, as your need to argue has brought you to defending something that everyone with a pulse can see is silly.

 

 

Hey buddy, if you'd listened you'd have noticed that I said "I don't even feel comfortable telling these guys how to hunt, given the destruction those pigs can cause, so I don't know where you get off doing so". Not YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO BECAUSE SOMETHING SOMETHING JINGOISM.

The reasons you described above:
 

-Not taking aimed shots, wrong.

-Aren't apportioning shots equally, wrong.

 

-Aren't using a caliber suitable for the job, wrong. (How in fuck is .308 Winchester not adequate for pigs?)

So, Tox, please tell me who in this virtual room said "NOPE, THERE'S NO OBLIGATION TO DO A GOOD JOB AND REDUCE SUFFERING, LET'S CAPTURE ALL THE PIGS AND GLEEFULLY TORTURE THEM TO DEATH"? Because this is getting ridiculous, you're tilting at some version of me that bathes in the blood of the innocent or something, cut it out.

"Everyone with a pulse can see is silly", you mean everyone with a cozy apartment who's never fired a gun or dealt with animal control, much less hogs.

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Are you going to include the rest of the conversation?

 

Edit: Since Sturgeon is being unaccountably weird about this, here is the conversation to date:

 

https://www.full30.com/video/d0f043e7965d4ecf4c3ac35c5ea9d47b

 

Hunting pigs with belt-fed MGs and thermal imagers, lol.

 

Pigs are an invasive species and yes they must be controlled. But I have ethical issues as a hunter with a bunch of rich fuckers - LOL - using a machine gun and helicopters to hunt animals. 

 

I have a problem period with rich hunters blowing out windows and killing pets in our neighborhood while I was growing up.

 

It sounds silly and excessive to most folks until you realize that hogs literally destroy people's livelihood here in Texas:

 

fuu8pg.jpg

 

 

 

Even passing that helicopter hunting bill didn't help much.

 

Oh no, I get it. The environmental issue of feral livestock like pigs is clear. 

 

whyyakbwasinvented.jpg 

 

using 6.8 too, ew 

 

Oh dear god the 6.8 wankery in that video.

You know someone's super rich when they're rolling around with night vision and 6.8 SPC rifles.

 

Also, "85% of the power of a .308" my ass.

 

i wouldnt mind the 85% number if he was shooting at like wild flocks of cinder blocks, hey that ryhmes, and not you know, living things that you just might want a efficent wound pattern round and arent like to be engaging at super dooper long range 

 

We don't have "hog hunting" to speak of in Washington and I have no experience with it. When they shoot the pigs, are they good to eat? Are they safe to eat? Or do they just let the animals rot?

 

I know with bear hunting, you have to be careful about Trichinosis. I assume with feral hogs, there's also this same risk.

 

Stay tuned for more...

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Huh? No, why? We know where we're at.

We're not the whole audience (unless you thought this was a PM). Show the punters some context.

 

Edit: Adding said context now. Freaking quote limits...

 

 

If you feel like roasted 30 odd fresh carcasses peppered in lead fragments in the space of a day be my guest.

But pork is pork. And pork is love. Pork is life

 

I'm trusting that our Ten gallon hunk Alex will provide more details. Or anyone else who is familiar. 

 

To me it seems a waste of good pork. But maybe wild hogs aren't tasty or something.

 

Like i said. Its more about the logistics than anything

Military grade weapons are best to get the bastards to Fuck off. But they tend to ruin the meat alot more and kill more than you could hope to cook

Bor hunting is different. And typically done for sport rather then curling a out of control speices of dicks on legs

 

Dude, hogs make a ranch look like a World War I battlefield. They are incredibly destructive - and I mean incredibly.

Whether you eat them or not, they simply gotta die.

And the worst part: Even with Texans in helicopters and with machine guns, night vision, suppressors giving out tours to ruthlessly massacre these animals with what is - I admit - a fairly creepy amount of glee, their population is still growing rapidly.

 

The creepy glee is the most lip curling aspect for me. 

 

Seconded - gotta love when all the ethical hunting arguments go straight out the window in favour of inflicting cruelty for its own sake.

 

As for the increasing population, you have to remember that pigs are smart as fuck and omnivorous to boot. A smart generalist animal capable of breeding in litters is damn near impossible to remove from an area altogether so long as it doesn't face competition from another animal like itself.

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I think framing what we perceive of the subject helps, because several different people are going to look at "aerial automatic hunting"  and are each going to envision it in several different ways. Someone may think about the heli scene from Full Metal Jacket, just some guy firing indiscriminately at groups of animals. Other people may be seeing it as someone carefully putting the rounds down on individual targets with degrees of success.

 

I've been watching videos, looking up different methods, and checking on businesses that hire out their services and do hunting tourism, and haven't made up my mind on what the trends point to.

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I think the difference in opnion comes down to 'hunting' vs 'pest control.'  Also, ranchers may not give a shit about the cruelty aspect, but that does not come across as a clean hunt to me, and that makes the optics of it pretty awful.  Everything that I've been exposed to in hunting ethics says you want a clean kill.  Also wounded hogs are fucking dangerous to anything around them.

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I think the difference in opnion comes down to 'hunting' vs 'pest control.'  Also, ranchers may not give a shit about the cruelty aspect, but that does not come across as a clean hunt to me, and that makes the optics of it pretty awful.  Everything that I've been exposed to in hunting ethics says you want a clean kill.  Also wounded hogs are fucking dangerous to anything around them.

 

Apparently this is why baying the hogs is becoming illegal in certain areas. They've killed and maimed lots of dogs.

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More:

 

 

Southwest USA has javelina.  I'm not sure how much they compete with the feral pigs.  They are quite a bit smaller, and it occurs to me that feral pigs might not have their full compliment of parasites, etc.

 

I do know that javelinas have some of the raddest looking dentition:

javelinaclosedsideview.JPG

 

I love those interlocking canines.

 

 

I think the larger pigs also get a better deal in terms of predation, as only apex predators can tackle them.

 

I would expect the real test to be in observing what happens when ranges overlap.

 

 

Also, I should mention that the clear solution to the hog problem is to introduce spotted hyenas.

 

 

Erm, they are clearly doing it for population control reasons. And I challenge you to go up in a helo at night with a suppressed machine gun and shoot for an hour and not come back with a smile on your face.

Sure, having that much fun while killing animals is a tad creepy, but let's not get into "hunters are heartless sociopaths" territory, here.

 

 

They're not doing anything to help the brand, then. Because spraying down a bunch of animals from a helo falls pretty squarly into sociopathic territory as far as I'm concerned.

 

If they wanted to do animal control then there are a bunch of other ways to go about it - up to and including hiring full-time hunters to eliminate herds.

 

 

...They ARE full-time hunters.

"Spraying down animals from a helo" is sociopathic? Where does it say that in the DSM?

If you mean because they enjoy it, well, congrats, you've literally described every hunter on Earth.

 

 

I.. I just wanted to know if they harvested the feral pig bacon...

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Quotepocalypse continues:

 

 

Every hunter on earth enjoys indiscriminate slaughter? You're painting a pretty fucking sick picture here, dude.

 

 

You don't have to be comfortable with it, but hunting is a kind of slaughter.

You want to whine about how horrible it is, how sociopathic hunters must be, then be my friggin guest.

Meanwhile, people have farms and ranches to protect out here, and they can't kill the pigs fast enough to protect them. If the folks in the field with rifles and such enjoy what they do, well, I don't have to like how gratuitous it may be, but I can respect their job and understand why.

 

 

Dude, flip your propaganda switch to the off position to a second and re-assess. I'm South African. Nearly every adult male I know hunts - either every once in a while or regularly. My country makes a goodly chunk of its money from farming and hunting, and I was trained by ecologists who advocate for commercial hunting as a means of preserving wildlife. So don't put words in my mouth regarding the ethics and utility of hunting (which is to say: fuck off). 

 

My problem with the specific scenario we're describing is that damn near all of the hunters I know would be aghast at it. It is unethical, because it wounds rather than kills. It is indiscriminate. It is unsporting. To these people (again, a large number of persons in my acquaintance) what you're describing would be viewed in the same light as a catholic priest detailing how he got into the business to diddle kids.

 

Even viewed as animal control it is inefficient, crude and inexact. And, again, would be viewed as unethical for all the reasons described above. Far better here to deploy traps, poison (carefully), biocontrol or damn near anything other than blazing away from the animals on high with weapons of insufficient killing power.

 

So, in short: get the fuck off your high horse about this, and stop pretending that I'm arguing with you because I don't understand the fundamental issues or something. This thing is retarded, and no regard for the need to control wildlife or secure farming livelyhoods is going to serve as a fig leaf for such stupidity and cruelty.

 

 

Toxn your a fag. Pigs are dicks. And guns are fun

 

 

Fuck "ethics" and "sporting" when it comes to culling an invasive species. Kill them in the most efficient way possible as fast as possible. My personal favorite method has become setting a large trap. You can get 5-6 in there and then dispath them with a head shot. 308 vaporizes a hog head at 10 yards.

And yes you can eat them, however when you kill 25 or 30 you are only realistically going to bring back a few. Generally grab a sow that weighs under 100 pounds if you want good eating:

http://i68.tinypic.com/1679vs6.jpg'>http://i68.tinypic.com/1679vs6.jpg

 

 

Which is it, Tox, is it cruel and unsporting, or is it efficient and indiscriminate? Seems like you can't make up your goddamn mind.

"It's unethical because it wounds rather than kills!" "They should be poisoning them instead!" This really proves to me that you've NEVER had to do animal control in your life. Poisoning is the fucking poster child of a culling method that's indiscriminate, cruel, and that wounds, not delivering a clean kill.

And guess what, genius: They CAN'T poison them because these are CATTLE RANCHES. You might as well slaughter all the cattle and roll up shop and move to Hawaii. Not to mention all the potential collateral wildlife damage from a poisoning campaign big enough to adequately cull hogs.

So get your head out of your ass, stop projecting, and stop acting like people who are solving problems you've got not even the slightest familiarity with are sociopaths.

 

 

I don't understand what your reasoning is, here. He never said either of those things excluded each other, and has some reasonable points that different hunting methods are better than others.

 

I did some reading on this years ago when I first heard about it, and these are the methods I've read about specifically:

 

Snaring and trapping: Argued by the Texas Animal Damage Control Service as the most effective methods that account for over half of the culling of the boar population. At this point, it seems to be property owners' preferred method due to effectiveness.

 

Fencing: There's no way to measure effectiveness that I've seen carried out on this, but there are suggested fencing techniques that seem to work. This is one of those "Evidence of absense" cases until someone compares properly fenced property to non. This one obviously carried logistical nightmares due to terrain and land size, too. This has an added effect though of keeping farm hogs on farms, as one of the most common cited reasons for their stable-to-growing populations are escaped pigs (the other being illegally introducing them to new environments).

 

Aerial Hunting: Still debated on its usefulness. It's seen as a way of monitoring herds and being able to give chase, but killing an animal is really hard, and flying a plane/helicopter to allow for accurate shooting is really hard. The former requires a well-placed shot, and as any GC will tell you, there are animals that you can pump rounds into all day and not reduce their lifespan too much. Flying a plane carries the same restrictions as it always does vis a vis weather, lack of vision in dense terrain, and requiring ground parties to coordinate with. Then there's the issue of flying well enough to not freak out a pack or being able to give someone a good enough shot (which is why they seem to recommend things like shotgun slugs over any other kind of weaponry). The TADC puts this as much less effective than trapping and snaring, and more useful than traditional hunting or baying.

 

Poisoning: Currently, there are no approved methods of poisoning hogs. Some methods are being trialed while certain chemicals are being tested and developed. The most promising methods involve taking advantage of their digging instincts to poison things like potatoes to specifically target the hogs.

 

Hunting itself is apparently not helping the overall problem greatly. There's nothing to say it hasn't helped individuals protect their property by diverting the population, but what I've read says hunting needs to cull around 50-70 percent of the hog population per year to properly address the problem, but hunting has overall done around maybe 20% per year. It's not ineffective, but it's obviously not the single solution. There are low-cost, high-payout options in animal population control that can result in a better long-term solution. Hell, Kansas and Arkansas outlawed forms of hog hunting due to cases of people illegally introducing more of these hogs into the environment.

 

 

Since I started the ball rolling, the issue is using a belt-fed machine gun to hunt. It is something that is generally considered outside of the norm in regards to hunting. Another stunt that I see is people using bait around a bunch of Tannerite in order to make a bomb to blow up multiple little piggies.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhC3Ln1ITug

 

Toxn isn't supporting the pigs here and I certainly am not. They're invasive species and should be exterminated. I just don't think that this policy is aided by a bunch of rich guys cackling with glee because it is legal to use unusual means to kill wild pigs. 

 

 

Great comparison of the different methods. Based on what the guys around here and more west that I've talked to have said, a combination of trapping and hunting (both aerial and ground) is really the only way to keep the populations in check. Hunting these critters isn't enough, but that's not exactly an argument against doing it!

 

 

Seems to me that pointing a gun at an animal and pulling the trigger is as discriminate as it gets. Using an automatic weapon helps ensure a cleaner kill when shooting from a vehicle - which as you note is useful. As for cruelty, every hunt is cruel to some degree, and every hunter tries to mitigate the cruelty as much as possible. Those who don't probably don't get asked back. As for helicopter hog hunting being "unsporting", they likely don't give a damn about that. The hogs need to die, "sporting" doesn't really enter into it, except in a humane sense, and for it being efficient - that's the whole bloody point.

 

Why did I outline a dichotomy... I dunno, it was 4 in the morning. I think what I was getting at is, is this a ruthless, efficient killing method, or a laborious, cruel exercise in sociopathy? Maybe that's not the picture Tox thought he was painting, but he's sure used the word "sociopathic" enough to give me that impression. I guess what I'm saying is, slaughtering cattle with a captive piston gun is ruthless, efficient, unsporting (in the sense that it's easy), but it's also highly ethical and not at all cruel or unsporting (in the sense that it's disrespectful of man's relationship with animals/wildlife). Poisoning them would be cruel, and largely unethical (and Tox's suggestion of this kinda shows just how little he's familiar with animal control, I think - nobody who'd actually seen a poisoning would think it was a good solution for this problem, or particularly ethical and tasteful). 

 

 

The idea that a 7.62mm machine gun is somehow inadequate for pig hunting and causes unnecessary suffering is a bit beyond me.

 

Yeah, they're having fun with it... Literally every hunter does this, even native ones (actually, I reckon ESPECIALLY native ones, that whole "respect for mother earth" shtick Hollywood pushes is largely a fiction). I think it's funny that shooting pigs with an M240L is unethical and sociopathic according to Tox, but I reckon he'd think hunting cape buffalo with a $500,000 double gun was just peachy (it would be much more ethical - and more tastefully restrained for that matter - to hunt them with a 37mm AT gun).

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Nearly there:

 

 

With flechette rounds hopefully

 

 

Sturg, you're projecting again. 7.62 or 6.8 Gerp or even 5.56 or Thuddy-Thuddy is perfectly fine with me. 

 

I don't care about the optics or the night vision or thermals since this reducing an invasive species. If you were to use those devices to hunt deer or elk, I'd be upset, but sure use them on hogs. I'm cool with that because they are nocturnal feeders.

 

It's hunting with a machine gun that is a bit unusual.

 

 

Why

Its just more efficent in every way to cull an invasive speicies with.

 

 

Unusual, yes, but how does that make it unethical? That's Tox's argument, unless I've grossly misunderstood him.

 

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the machine gun here is more efficient than a few other options that I can think of. But, I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest and not in Texas so I have to demure a bit since I don't have actual experience in the field.

 

 

It's the Fair Chase argument. And it is one of those subjective things. 

 

https://www.boone-crockett.org/huntingEthics/ethics_fairchase.asp?area=huntingEthics

 

Romantic idealization aside, American hunting is just an animal control technique that the government has outsourced to private contractors who - usually - pay for that privilege. For the most part, hunters over the past century have cleaned up their collective act in regards to public perception.

 

 

The problem on the ethical side is the assumption that automatic means more effective. I don't have any real data to prove it being more effective, but anecdoatally If I said "automatic hunting" to my drinking buddy Game Commisioner next door, he'd start raving about all of the angry, bullet-riddled animals from semi-auto he's had to deal with here (illegal in PA, mind you) and at his previous job in Utah. Animals aren't guaranteed to go down just because a bunch of bullets hit them. That, and it's a big part of tourism hunting, which through no instance can I recall it ever having been a positive influence anywhere in the world, especially since there are cases of illegally translocating these animals for hunting purposes.

 

Until I see that automatic aerial hunting is as efficient, or more, than what wildlife agencies recommend, it can be an overall hindrance to efforts.

 

 

Yes, but hog hunting IS an animal control technique. That's the whole point.

 

 

Hunting tourism is a huge boon to African conservation efforts, where have you been?

Pigs don't need help being translocated. They need help being dead. You could consider using a machine gun to do this "gratuitous", but it works, and the idea that it's inadequate and therefore unethical is ridiculous.

You want to kill one animal surely? Yep, break out the accurized bolt gun. That's not applicable to hog hunting, where you have to kill as many as possible.

 

 

Don't mind me. Just killing hogs with a MAC 10:

 

1zmo0av.jpg

 

 

 

I nailed a bunch of them in the pack, but this was the only one in the "worth eating" zone.

I also did it from the back of a moving truck which was, dare I say it, pretty cool.

 

 

Haven't read anything on it, I'll take a look. I've only heard of it in the sense of shooting endangered species, and people performing illegal actions to introduce problematic animals to different areas. I was saying it was illegal to translocate them, as in moving them in order to make it worse. It's not a method to fix a problem, it's a method to intentionally make it worse.

 

And if you make peace with the ethic points, that's fine. It's just something we disagree on until I see evidence that automatic aerial hunting specifically has been an overall useful  part of the conservation effort.

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Done:

 

 

Not gonna lie, I couldn't care less about the different between a feral hog being taken out with a shot from a run of the mill .243 Winchester bolt gun to the neck, or a pack of them being strafed by an A-10C with a full HEI loadout and maximum Hydra rocket pods.

What I do care about however is the thread topic.

 

 

Not saying I've seen a feral hog taken out with artillery, but I've seen very similar...

 

 

The artillery was self propelled?

 

 

Bolded and enlarged for emphasis. Read what I write if you're going to piss all over it.

 

 

I regret only being able to upvote this once.

 

I was joking about introducing hyena, but biocontrol really is one of the few ways to deal with this sort of problem permanently. Hunting et al is just a management technique.

 

 

How is it inefficient? In the big scheme of things, ammo is cheap.

Also, you can't really poison large enough numbers of hogs without threatening your own livestock and game. That would be why it's not recommended to do so.

I'm pissing all over it because you're sitting over there in South Africa acting like you know what's best for ranchers over here in Louisiana and Texas. It's bullshit. You have no freaking idea what pigs can do to a ranch, and how hard they are to successfully cull. I don't own a ranch, so I don't live that life either, but I've seen it firsthand at least, and I'm also not the one telling these guys "you're doing it all wrong!"

It's time for you to get off this hobbyhorse. Pest control is not pretty business, not if you trap them, not if you shoot them, not if you poison them.

 

 

Given the handwringing ranchers in Eastern Washington and Idaho have over wolves being introduced I can imagine how hyenas would go over.

Still. I like how you think!

 

 

I'm all for hunting a cape buffalo with a 37mm, but for the fact that you'd ruin the meat, hide and horns (which is hella wasteful).

 

The problem with machinegunning the animals is that you're not delivering aimed shots. You're sure as fuck not doing it from a helo. So some of the hogs are going to get 5 bullets into the vitals and die instantly, and some are going to get a few in the wrong place and limp away to die of sepsis while you and your buddies fly home to jerk off and post youtube videos.

 

For elephant culling we use helicopters, but we also use large-bore rifles or dart guns loaded for instant death (as a by-the-by, an elephant tranq dart will kill a man within seconds). So you're targeting individuals rather than a group, and taking them out one by one. Elephants also make easier targets than hogs by dint of being, you know, fucking enormous.

 

 

I think you forget that we also have a long tradition of mass hunting to feed our love of biltong and venison. This means hundreds of animals taken in a single night, all by a small group of hunters backed up by what amounts to a mobile slaughter-house. And all with bolt guns.

 

Try again.

 

 

I'm glad that you've retreated to using me as johnny foreigner here. Please feel free to trot out the yoeman farmer argument next, or defend the livelyhood of all the poor, struggling smallholdings that just need the obviously superior solution I'm objecting to to make it through the winter.

 

It's inefficient for the reasons I described above: because you aren't making aimed shots, aren't apportioning shots equally and (potentially) aren't using a calibre suitable for the job. It's going to result in some dead animals, some wounded animals who will die later and some who will walk it off and come back next week.

 

I'm not saying that pest control is clean or neat. Farmers here poison and trap here too. But I'm saying that there should be an obligation to do a good job and at least try to minimise suffering. This means using the most efficient methods (which this isn't), doing your best not to cause gratioutous harm (which this doesn't) and trying to extract as much value from the carcasses as you can (which this doesn't).

 

I think it is time you drop this, as your need to argue has brought you to defending something that everyone with a pulse can see is silly.

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I just want him to admit he doesn't like people using machine guns for hog hunting because they're nontraditional, not for any real ethical reasons.

 

You are a weirdo, dude. I guess we should all be pretty glad you're not religious (I think?), as you'd be the sort to go around trying to argue that protestants are idol-worshipers by dint of not accepting the transubstantiation doctrine or something.

 

Again, I would have a lot less problems with this scene if it involved good shot placement and a calibre considered more than suitable for the job (folk here pretty much start at .308 and work their way up). Can you honestly say that these yahoos, shooting from an unsteady platform as they are, are making the sort of good placement shots that you want for reliable killing with their 6.8s?

 

I would honestly have a lot fewer problems if they were using an M2 or something (I don't even know how you'd organise a decent expanding tip for that), as it would make the placement a lot less problematic for the sort of shooting they're doing. Or else using something like .375 H&H and doing their best to hit behind the forequarters.

 

But yeah, I also have a visceral problem with the idea of this type of helicopter culling, in pretty much the same way I'd have a visceral problem with a dude hosing a deer down with .22LR and leaving the carcass to rot. It just screams 'bad hunt' to me. So I'd want a lot of assurance that the folk doing it are taking the best possible course that they can in the circumstances (efficiency, discrimination etc.), rather than just indulging themselves in what would otherwise be condemned as bad practice simply because they can. The original video provides precisely no reassurance on that front.

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Here is for talking about how Toxn is wrong about hog hunting. Let's begin. ;)

 

 

Who told you that you could not aim a machine gun?

 

Aim as in 'hit a palm-sized spot on the animal's flank'? No, you can't really do that. Certainly you can't from the side of a helo.

Also, I don't understand, how is the vital hit probability for a machine gun somehow lower than it is for an AR-15, both being fired from helos? Given that helicopter hunting is useful for culling pigs for a variety of reasons (including that you can follow the group more easily, and also drive them into other hunters on the ground), precisely which weapon would you recommend them use instead?

 

Dealt with above.

Why are you under the impression that they DON'T target individuals when hog hunting? Of course they do, especially sows.

 

 

Not sure how this is relevant.

 

Because it directly counters your assertion that bolt guns wouldn't cut it for this sort of work.

 

Hey buddy, if you'd listened you'd have noticed that I said "I don't even feel comfortable telling these guys how to hunt, given the destruction those pigs can cause, so I don't know where you get off doing so". Not YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO BECAUSE SOMETHING SOMETHING JINGOISM.

 

Go on, tell me how non-judgy we are when regarding the circumstances of others. You pointing out my distance from events is simply a plea to ignore my arguments without regard to their merits.

The reasons you described above:

 

-Not taking aimed shots, wrong.

 

"aimed"

-Aren't apportioning shots equally, wrong.

 

Tell me again how they are making sure to strike their mark here.

 

-Aren't using a caliber suitable for the job, wrong. (How in fuck is .308 Winchester not adequate for pigs?)

 

Weren't we specifically talking about 6.8? In any case, wouldn't .308 be considered marginal for the larger boars?

So, Tox, please tell me who in this virtual room said "NOPE, THERE'S NO OBLIGATION TO DO A GOOD JOB AND REDUCE SUFFERING, LET'S CAPTURE ALL THE PIGS AND GLEEFULLY TORTURE THEM TO DEATH"? Because this is getting ridiculous, you're tilting at some version of me that bathes in the blood of the innocent or something, cut it out.

 

1. You do bathe in blood, as is required by our ancient laws.

2. Yes, we're arguing about you now, rather than the nimrods on the chopper. Don't project here.

"Everyone with a pulse can see is silly", you mean everyone with a cozy apartment who's never fired a gun or dealt with animal control, much less hogs.

 

Strange how so many of our little clan are coming out of the woodwork on this one. Are you really blind to the idea that people who aren't effete apartment-dwellers might find the whole thing sort of disgusting? Is it really only two sides here: the know-nothings and the mature adults? Because it doesn't seem that way to me, at least not in this case.

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Can I also mention that Alex looks even more Dexter-like (somehow) in that photo? I'm thinking we might have to either ban him from posting hunting shots or start a 'secret deleted scenes from the TV show' thread for fun and profit.

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You are a weirdo, dude. I guess we should all be pretty glad you're not religious (I think?), as you'd be the sort to go around trying to argue that protestants are idol-worshipers by dint of not accepting the transubstantiation doctrine or something.

 

That's collimatrix, actually.

 

Again, I would have a lot less problems with this scene if it involved good shot placement and a calibre considered more than suitable for the job (folk here pretty much start at .308 and work their way up). Can you honestly say that these yahoos, shooting from an unsteady platform as they are, are making the sort of good placement shots that you want for reliable killing with their 6.8s?

 

They are hogs, not elephants. I consider .223 to be perfectly acceptable, and 6.8 a bit gratuitous (just because it's expensive).

On the ground? Yeah, as much as porker hunters in Europe can on running animals with Blasers and Aimpoints. In a helo, well, much less accurate, of course, but again we're talking more population control than hunting. The helos are useful for certain things, and ethical kills are still the norm. After all, hard for a hog to outrun a chopper.

 

 

I would honestly have a lot fewer problems if they were using an M2 or something (I don't even know how you'd organise a decent expanding tip for that), as it would make the placement a lot less problematic for the sort of shooting they're doing. Or else using something like .375 H&H and doing their best to hit behind the forequarters.

 

Um... OK. I'm the weirdo. Whatever.

 

But yeah, I also have a visceral problem with the idea of this type of helicopter culling, in pretty much the same way I'd have a visceral problem with a dude hosing a deer down with .22LR and leaving the carcass to rot. It just screams 'bad hunt' to me. So I'd want a lot of assurance that the folk doing it are taking the best possible course that they can in the circumstances (efficiency, discrimination etc.), rather than just indulging themselves in what would otherwise be condemned as bad practice simply because they can. The original video provides precisely no reassurance on that front.

 

Well, as previously mentioned, this is pest control. Obviously, they should do the best they can, but at the end of the day you gotta kill those hogs or else.

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