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LoooSeR

ATGMs and RPGs for infantry - a thread for rebels around the world to choose their ATGM supplier.

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Seems like the Islamic State suffers no lack of 9M131 Metis-M missiles, three of which seen in use in Deir ez-Zor. 

1shIfaq.jpg

 

Syrian bought a lot of ATGMs before 2011, almost all of which are Soviet/Russian or Chinese systems.

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Belarus and Jordan companies BelOMO and JADARA showed this - "Nashab-quatro". 4 RPG-32s as remote-controlled weapon stations.

Er2Zfop.jpg

 

Similar system, that possibly was an inspiration for this QUADROKILL STRNG - "Shershen"

90539_900.jpg

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One question about ATGMs is interesting for me - when tank designers will figure out how to protect tanks roof well enough, how will ATGM designers respond to that? Simply increasing warhead power will not work well, as i am speaking about infantry AT systems.

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Top attack may be a passing fad.  From what I have read, defending against explosively formed penetrators is similar to defending against shaped charges.  Only EFPs have much less penetration than traditional shaped charges.  Effective defense can therefore be fairly light to retrofit to existing vehicles.  You just need to dish out the money to actually do it.

 

Maybe ramjet-propelled long rod penetrators will come into style.

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Top attack may be a passing fad.  From what I have read, defending against explosively formed penetrators is similar to defending against shaped charges.  Only EFPs have much less penetration than traditional shaped charges.  Effective defense can therefore be fairly light to retrofit to existing vehicles.  You just need to dish out the money to actually do it.

 

Maybe ramjet-propelled long rod penetrators will come into style.

Hate to ruin your boner for kinetic missiles, because damn are they cool:

 

https://youtu.be/JCmSs6hXWoU

 

But they're also obscenely bulky compared to anything with HEAT in the tip.

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Hate to ruin your boner for kinetic missiles, because damn are they cool:

 

https://youtu.be/JCmSs6hXWoU

 

But they're also obscenely bulky compared to anything with HEAT in the tip.

 

Still smaller than a malkara.

 

KE ATGMs would also have gigantic minimum ranges where they haven't gotten up to speed enough to punch through armor.

 

LOSAT and the CKEM were both solid fuel rocket powered.  You might be able to get the size down to something reasonable with a ramjet or air augmented rocket.  Tsiolkovsky equation and Isp and all that.

 

Mayyybe a liquid-fueled rocket, but the history of liquid-fueled rockets in ordnance is not a happy one.  I spoke to a Lockheed Martin employee who had some secondhand stories about old Soviet ICBM silos from expat employees there.  Scary shit; oxidizer tank would spring a leak, someone would get a face-full of the stuff and all they would find left of the guy would be his dentures and glasses.

 

But that's the nature of the armor/arms race.  If you force the other guy to use a new weapon that can still kill you, but is bulkier, more expensive and less practical, that's still a win.

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Still smaller than a malkara.

 

KE ATGMs would also have gigantic minimum ranges where they haven't gotten up to speed enough to punch through armor.

 

LOSAT and the CKEM were both solid fuel rocket powered.  You might be able to get the size down to something reasonable with a ramjet or air augmented rocket.  Tsiolkovsky equation and Isp and all that.

 

Mayyybe a liquid-fueled rocket, but the history of liquid-fueled rockets in ordnance is not a happy one.  I spoke to a Lockheed Martin employee who had some secondhand stories about old Soviet ICBM silos from expat employees there.  Scary shit; oxidizer tank would spring a leak, someone would get a face-full of the stuff and all they would find left of the guy would be his dentures and glasses.

 

But that's the nature of the armor/arms race.  If you force the other guy to use a new weapon that can still kill you, but is bulkier, more expensive and less practical, that's still a win.

 

Given what little I know about ramjets, I'm not sure you could make them work well at all given the need to boost them up to speed and the scaling problems associated with airflow. But then a few (big) AAMs have ramjets, so... maybe?

 

A fuckoff-big solid penetrator has some major advantages in terms of not being stopped by active defences of any sort, so there is that. Plus, you know, the cool factor.

 

My feeling on the most realistic way forwards is that you might see some approaches which specifically rely on swarms of smaller rockets rather than a single big 'un. This has the advantage of allowing you to fiddle with things like formation and timing a bit, as well as rendering active defences moot by dint of saturation. Another approach might be to run the multiple charge concept to its endzone in the same way that a few LRP ideas were supposed to do - by having your missile spit out multiple warheads just before impact and line them up into a train. This makes interception harder (first warhead in the train is a shield or disposable) and allows you to hit the same place multiple times while still leaving time for flyer plates to get out of the way and so on.

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   Swarms of missile are unlikely to exist in near future, electronics and guidance systems are not up to task. Probably 2 missiles max, with 1 being "bait" for APS and second Kornet-like as main punch. 

 

   I suspect that majority of anti-tank-specialized ATGMs would not be possible to carry around. They would be mounted on lightly armored cars, light tracked chassis or similar. 

 

   Other ways to deal with tanks will get more attention, if APS and jammers will become real problem. 

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