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Bronezhilet

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7 hours ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

Have you guys seen footage of the behavior of the Palestinians, and the bullshit Hamas is supposed to be doing to incite this?  You guys act like Isreal is the only side doing questionable things, and you are basing it on info coming out from a press with a blatant bias and basically terrorist scum openly calling for the destruction of Isreal?  

 

The Palestinians could have peace, anytime they want, all they have to do is stop being terrorists scum and actually sit down with an honest desire for peace, and they would get it. Isreal would be happy to not have a bunch of assholes waiting with baited breath to murder their people, on their borders. 

 

It seems kind of ironic, that a bunch of Euro nations who sat back, or aided the Nazis in rounding up, robbing, and murdering 6 million Jews, now castigate the country the Jews who survived, created to defend themselves from it happening again, are now attacking Israel for defending themselves from their neighbors who are openly calling for the same solution the Nazis used. 

 

Oddly, maybe not a coincidence, antisemitism and Jew murders are on the rise again in Europe,  but hey, it's cause they're the evil ones right, not the assholes who send people, including kids, to blow themselves up for "to stop the Zionist oppression!"

Killing protesters armed with armor peircing rocks and assault Molotovs is now Hamas fault? 

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Everyone please behave or I will have to use the belt.

What I do not understand about this event is that Hamas has tried provocative acts in the past.  If this was truly Hamas trying to bait the Israelis into a lethal over-reaction, which I grant is possible, then why did the Israelis chomp on the bait?

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5 minutes ago, Collimatrix said:

Everyone please behave or I will have to use the belt.

What I do not understand about this event is that Hamas has tried provocative acts in the past.  If this was truly Hamas trying to bait the Israelis into a lethal over-reaction, which I grant is possible, then why did the Israelis chomp on the bait?

The main question is though...

 

Will it be an AP-API-HE-T belt or a AP-AP-HE-T belt?

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13 hours ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

Have you guys seen footage of the behavior of the Palestinians, and the bullshit Hamas is supposed to be doing to incite this?  You guys act like Isreal is the only side doing questionable things, and you are basing it on info coming out from a press with a blatant bias and basically terrorist scum openly calling for the destruction of Isreal?  

 

Jeeps, 

 

To be clear, I fully support Israel on this one which is why if you go back and reread my post to Zuk you'll see that i focused on the messenger and the delivery.

 

I know that these days there's really not a lot of subtlety to most online shit flinging, but in this case it really was just about me calling out a jackass for being a jackass. I don't particularly care whether a jackass is on my side or the other, I'm still going to call them out for being a jackass!

 

Really, I'm much more likely to call out jackasses I happen to share a position with because them spouting their jackass bullshit inherently weakens a position I believe in.  It's for the same reason that I'll smile and say that's nice to some frothing at the mouth special ed field trip escapee engaging in a rousing harangue for the other side. They are doing more damage to their own position than I ever could, so it's in my best interest to let it continue.

 

Just like gun owners by and large police themselves when they see unsafe behavior and et cetera. It's obviously better for us to handle it in house where it doesn't become one more anecdote aimed squarely at separating us from our rights.

 

 

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1 hour ago, roguetechie said:

 

Jeeps, 

 

To be clear, I fully support Israel on this one which is why if you go back and reread my post to Zuk you'll see that i focused on the messenger and the delivery.

 

I know that these days there's really not a lot of subtlety to most online shit flinging, but in this case it really was just about me calling out a jackass for being a jackass. I don't particularly care whether a jackass is on my side or the other, I'm still going to call them out for being a jackass!

 

Really, I'm much more likely to call out jackasses I happen to share a position with because them spouting their jackass bullshit inherently weakens a position I believe in.  It's for the same reason that I'll smile and say that's nice to some frothing at the mouth special ed field trip escapee engaging in a rousing harangue for the other side. They are doing more damage to their own position than I ever could, so it's in my best interest to let it continue.

 

Just like gun owners by and large police themselves when they see unsafe behavior and et cetera. It's obviously better for us to handle it in house where it doesn't become one more anecdote aimed squarely at separating us from our rights.

 

 

 

 

Yeah I got that part, and maybe I'm dense, but I just didn't see what he said was that bad.  I don't see the arguments against his side as being very clever either.  

 

7 hours ago, Bronezhilet said:

The main question is though...

 

Will it be an AP-API-HE-T belt or a AP-AP-HE-T belt?

120mm canister

 

6 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

Everyone please behave or I will have to use the belt.

What I do not understand about this event is that Hamas has tried provocative acts in the past.  If this was truly Hamas trying to bait the Israelis into a lethal over-reaction, which I grant is possible, then why did the Israelis chomp on the bait?

 

 

Maybe the crowd looking like fire wielding Zombies trying to invade had them a little trigger happy. I can't find the link, and frankly just don't give enough fucks about this, but a large chunk of the dead was supposed to be from actual terrorist groups.  But yeah the evil Zionist are just crazed killers like the legacy media is portraying it, this is the one in a million story they've gotten right this year! 

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If this shit was black & white simple, it would have been sorted long ago.....Neither side can claim complete innocence in this issue.  

 

External parties supporting one side or the other exclusively, while applying obvious double standards, can never help of course.

 

PS - & then there are the bible-bashers to consider too.  :rolleyes:

 

PPS - @Mighty_Zuk  This is not personal or even an attack on Israel, I'd say just the same if this were my government's policies at work rather than yours (this should be pretty bloody obvious based on my posts here to date).

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8 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

Everyone please behave or I will have to use the belt.

What I do not understand about this event is that Hamas has tried provocative acts in the past.  If this was truly Hamas trying to bait the Israelis into a lethal over-reaction, which I grant is possible, then why did the Israelis chomp on the bait?

Because sometimes you have to act even though you know this is what your adversary wants.

This has been a lose-lose situation for Israel from the very beginning. There was no possible way to turn this around.

 

First, it's important to understand in what cases the IDF uses the following methods:

1)Arrest.

2)Tear gas.

3)Rubber bullets.

4)Water cannons.

5)Live ammo to maim.

6)Live ammo to kill.

 

=====================================================================

 

1)Ideally, every infiltration attempt is handled by quick response units who are geared to make an arrest, even if the infiltrator is armed. In most cases they are armed, albeit usually not for the intent of killing, but that's a topic for another debate. BUT, you cannot make an arrest when there are another 20 people nearby who can assault the soldiers. This is why throughout these protests, the number of arrests has been very low. I think only 2 or 3 incidents.

 

2)Tear gas is used at any range within the buffer zone. 

 

3)Rubber bullets are very limited in their range. These sand berms are located maybe 20-30 meters from the fence. Many times going to several hundred meters. Thus normally they would only be effective against people who are already at the fence. However, they almost never go to the fence alone. These are coordinated efforts of usually dozens of men. Firing rubber on them becomes ineffective as the rate of fire is very low, and their lethality is substantially increased. When you only have a couple sharpshooters in a position and the border is rushed by 50-something people, you may not have the time to load 50 rubber bullets before it turns into a life threatening event. Thus although they are used, they are not enough in many cases.

 

Spoiler

gaza1.jpg

 

4)Range is even more limited, and they're used almost exclusively to put out tire fires. 

 

5)Used against those who enter too deep into the buffer zone, which used to be 300m but was reduced to 100m to reduce casualties, and those who pose a high threat to soldiers - Slingshots, firebombs (aka molotovs), IED kites. 

 

6)Used only against those who are breaching the fence, those who already breached, and those who pose an immediate threat - any sort of firearm, explosive devices (IEDs, pipe bombs, grenades) etc.

 

=====================================================================

 

There's also the question of why shoot to kill infiltrators anyway instead of just sending quick reaction forces to try and catch them. The answer to that would be.... Google maps. 

 

This one is from 2014 and shows a simple map of tunnels coming out from the Gaza strip, but it illustrates my point fairly well:

Spoiler

1753960-46.jpg

 

There are villages, towns, and cities located so close to the Gaza strip that you could get to them from the fence in just a couple minutes' walk. Sa'ad in this picture less so, but Nahal Oz, Kfar Aza, and the largest of them Sderot, a city of 25,000 people, are only less than a kilometer from the Gaza border. It's even frequent for houses in Sderot to be hit with machine gun fire. When you have population centers about half a mile away from the border, and a quarter of a mile from your position, you don't take risks.

 

Even a single man carrying a knife that gets past the border fence, past the soldiers, and into one of these, could cause a massacre. Most men, however, who tried to infiltrate, weren't holding kitchen knives. They were packing firearms and grenades.

 

So when Hamas say they're going to breach the border and murder as many people as they can, well even if it's just propaganda talk to rile up the people, you gotta take them seriously, because even if they do live up to their word, they don't lose. It's still a victory for them because they need not only international support, but inner support. It's why they also decided to take the hit and admit 50 of the dead were theirs - They need to show the locals they're men of actions, whether or not that number is real or made up. And that sort of action is not viewed nicely in Israel.

 

=====================================================================

 

Some cases were reported and went viral, of fire that seemed grossly unjustified, such as the man running with a tire about a month ago, or more recently the doctor that was shot in the leg (I think that even though he was very close to the fence, it's unjustified as doctors are frequently brought there to drag away the injured). But in the end the guys holding these rifles are just normal human beings, and whose judgement and circumstances we do not know. My take from this is that overall there needs to be some more transparency, that some incidents probably should have been avoided entirely, but in a very general sense I think the IDF handled it in the closest way to optimal that it could, given its circumstances.

 

 

@roguetechie My sincerest apologies for writing this. Just try to ignore it, please.

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2 hours ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

 

 

Yeah I got that part, and maybe I'm dense, but I just didn't see what he said was that bad.  I don't see the arguments against his side as being very clever either.  

 

No the arguments against aren't clever at all, on that I definitely agree.

 

any time they get a chance to catch a significant number of the active terrorist group members in the open where they can kill them is a good thing all around.

 

I have no issues separating my dislike for individuals from my support for or against a cause. 

 

Israel's choosing to handle this right now is also perfectly understandable and a great choice. The Saudis have kinda given them a green light, they have a president in the US who has their backs, Syria is kinda busy at the moment, and Iran is too...

 

They've done a great job at doing this at a time when it's most likely to be accepted as a fait accompli by people outside of their borders.

 

And morally, they did the most reasonable people can expect them to by reaching out one last time with stern warnings about the consequences of rejecting their overtures.

 

I don't honestly see how it's even a question of who is in the right on this one, and I think it sucks for Israel that they get called the devil no matter what.

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I think that the situation in Israel is kind of like some of the cop shootings in the states. 

 

Hear me out. 

 

Cop gets in a situation and ends up shooting someone. Say that person had a weapon on them. The media blasts the officer for killing a poor defenseless ethnic person.

 

Except then, you put the same media types through a shoot/no shoot scenario, and they end up blasting literally everything that even slightly spooks them. 

 

My point is, it's easy for people in the US to point fingers and shake heads at the horrible acts that are portrayed from media sources. But if we had that kind of situation so close to home, I don't know if our response would be so different. Especially if they deal with this day in and day out for decades.

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In a slight change of pace.

 

Cougar kills biker, injures second in attack near Snoqualmie, Washington.

 

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/1-dead-1-injured-in-cougar-attack-near-north-bend/281-555709031

 

http://www.thenewstribune.com/latest-news/article211511844.html

 

The two men were mountain biking when they were attacked before noon, according to the Sheriff's Office.

 

Responders found the cougar standing over the body of the man killed, KIRO 7 reported. Officers with the state Fish and Wildlife Department are tracking it.

 

...

 

According to the map, this attack took place about two or three miles from where I used to live. 

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1 hour ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

Ouch. That's scary. 

 

Buddy of mine went down hard descending down a fireroad in fort Collins. When the dust cleared , a cougar was staring at home from the side of the trail.

Sometimes Humans aren't the top of the food chain in the short term. somewhat scary when it happens.

 

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7 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

So when Hamas say they're going to breach the border and murder as many people as they can, well even if it's just propaganda talk to rile up the people, you gotta take them seriously, because even if they do live up to their word, they don't lose.

 

That would be the point where my sympathies for the Palestinian cause would evaporate.....But right now, Israel needs to show more restraint, maybe make some concessions, you know, for the sake of peace and all that.

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Update: Fish and Wildlife officers tracked down and euthanized the cougar.

 

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/crews-responding-to-report-of-mountain-lion-attack-near-north-bend/752771730

 

Ddmxbm0UwAAZu-4.jpg

 

The 31-year-old man said he and a friend were mountain biking in the Lake Hancock forest area at about 11 a.m. Saturday when they realized they were being chased by the big cat.

"So they stopped and they made a lot of noise, said Myers, ''which is exactly what we counsel people to do."

But then the attack took a tragic turn.   

"The two victims then took a minute and were catching their breath about this amazing, incredibly scary event that just occurred," he said, "and suddenly the victim who's now in Harborview was attacked again by this cougar. It latched onto his head."

The man who managed to escape watched his friend run.  The cougar chased after him and killed him.

 

...

 

Wildlife officials say that at 100 pounds, the cougar was a big cat, a male, 3-4 years old.

They are hoping the necropsy will provide the answers they need to figure out why the encounter turned deadly.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Donward said:

Update: Fish and Wildlife officers tracked down and euthanized the cougar.

 

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/crews-responding-to-report-of-mountain-lion-attack-near-north-bend/752771730

 

Ddmxbm0UwAAZu-4.jpg

 

The 31-year-old man said he and a friend were mountain biking in the Lake Hancock forest area at about 11 a.m. Saturday when they realized they were being chased by the big cat.

"So they stopped and they made a lot of noise, said Myers, ''which is exactly what we counsel people to do."

But then the attack took a tragic turn.   

"The two victims then took a minute and were catching their breath about this amazing, incredibly scary event that just occurred," he said, "and suddenly the victim who's now in Harborview was attacked again by this cougar. It latched onto his head."

The man who managed to escape watched his friend run.  The cougar chased after him and killed him.

 

...

 

Wildlife officials say that at 100 pounds, the cougar was a big cat, a male, 3-4 years old.

They are hoping the necropsy will provide the answers they need to figure out why the encounter turned deadly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's crazy cause it doesn't look that big! Pound for pound, Cats are worse than canines I think. We see Mountain Lions all over the Rural parts of Marin, I spend a lot of time in these places working, I've never seen one, but they have been seen on two properties we service. One left a deer carcass on the front lawn of a Ranch house, on a small, semi-working ranch near Nicasio reservoir. 

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8 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 

That would be the point where my sympathies for the Palestinian cause would evaporate.....But right now, Israel needs to show more restraint, maybe make some concessions, you know, for the sake of peace and all that.

 

Can you give any examples? It's easy to talk from afar, but if you can give me an example of HOW to be more restrained without increasing the risk to troops and nearby civilians on the Israeli side, and WHAT sort of concessions could be made, then we could talk.

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Easy.....How about not shooting until they actually breach the fence, and closing a few illegal settlements as an act of good will?  

 

Sending some of your world class medical personnel in to fix the damage you've done would be a bloody good idea too.  

 

Ending the illegal siege of Gaza couldn't hurt either.

 

The list of things that Israel could do is endless.....But murder is easier, or so it seems.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Easy.....How about not shooting until they actually breach the fence?

 

Sounds great. Doesn't work. A guy goes on a rampage on the street. Should you shoot him right away before he can do any damage, or only after he stabbed you 3 times in the face, 12 times in the chest, and performed a pagan ritual on your body?

 

 

Quote

And closing a few illegal settlements as an act of good will?  

 

How do you think Gaza became what it is today? A few settlements were shut down, their residents compensated and relocated, all their property was given for free to Gazans (agricultural equipment, technology, and the necessary infrastructure to create and run a product-centric economy as a kickstart), and they became an independent, autonomous region 100% free of Israelis. Long story short they messed it all up, destroyed all the infrastructure they were given almost immediately, elected a terrorist organization for a government, cancelled all further elections, started several wars, declared themselves uninhabitable by 2020-ish, and now they also cut off the only line of supplies they had.

 

Yeah, I don't think disbanding settlements in unilateral moves, i.e outside any agreements, is going to work either.

 

Quote

Sending some of your world class medical personnel in to fix the damage you've done would be a bloody good idea too.  

 

Been there, done that. Anything else?

 

Quote

Ending the illegal siege of Gaza couldn't hurt either.

 

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's illegal. By all means, it is very much legal. 

But I want to hear you out on this. What could the Palestinians benefit from the removal of the blockade?

 

Quote

The list of things that Israel could do is endless.....But murder is easier, or so it seems.

 

Not as easy as sitting comfortably at home and clicking away on your keyboard some nonsense commentary about how those who act, should behave. Why don't you pick up a rifle, go to a conflict zone, finish a tour, and only then brag about how humane you are.

 

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8 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Easy.....How about not shooting until they actually breach the fence, and closing a few illegal settlements as an act of good will?  

 

Sending some of your world class medical personnel in to fix the damage you've done would be a bloody good idea too.  

 

Ending the illegal siege of Gaza couldn't hurt either.

 

The list of things that Israel could do is endless.....But murder is easier, or so it seems.

 

 

 

 

Where's your list for the Palestinians or are you OK with their tactics?

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16 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Easy.....How about not shooting until they actually breach the fence

So basically instead of selective killing you straight up advocate mass murder? Because you and I both know that if the border is breached, people are going to rush in en masse. At which point you say the Israelis are allowed to gun them down. And I'm pretty sure a couple of rifles won't be enough. You'd need to machine gun them down.

 

I wonder how the English would react if Scotland and Northern Ireland would employ the same tactics against England over the whole EU issue. I'm willing to bet they won't go "Oh I'm so sorry, we'll stay in the EU, or you can leave the UK to join the EU.".

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Have to concede, I didn't think that idea through very well at all.  :unsure:

 

It's just such a miserable bloody mess, it depresses me, I remember my dad trying to explain it to me in 1973, I was really worried for Israel at the time.  Over the years the situation changed and I've found my sympathies tilting toward the Palestinian cause, backing the underdog I guess.  A friend then became actively involved in the Palestinian cause and found herself coming under Israeli fire, which didn't do much for my opinion of the IDF.

 

As for how England might react under similar circumstances.....Who knows?  But I'm pretty confident such issues will be resolved around a table, rather than with live fire.  Maybe Israel should give that option another try, but with the understanding that they will actually need to make some tangible concessions?

 

Meanwhile the horror continues:  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestinian-on-fire-gaza-protests-street-israel-living-conditions-fathi-harb-sheikh-radwan-a8361221.html?amp

 

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