Tanks guns and ammunition.

[Mighty_Zuk]

16 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

MM is dutch and two people?

And they both hate Damian.

[FORMATOSE]

Going to the 24/7 supermarket in Israel be like :

 

[Ramlaen]

Ruag compact 120mm gun brochure.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/4056872/Compact-120-Tank-Gun-Brochure

[rob89]

Some questions for the experts about autocannons.

 

Is the new Rheinmetall 35mm x228 Wotan a derivation of the Rh 503 (and therefore linked to the Bushmaster III 35/50 family)?

 

and, in this case, is it possible to expect a future evolution in a 50mm Wotan / Supershot, with the same interchangeability's characteristics ?

 

What could be an estimated value of muzzle velocity and the penetration capability of APFSDS of the 50mm Supershot ?

(Williams in his 2013 addenda to the "Rapid Fire" book wrote about 140mm RHAe@1500m@90°)

 

thank you in advance

 

PS : a thread about modern/future autocannons and the implications of their evolution could be very interesting 

 sorry if if already exists and I missed it 

 

[butcher]

On 6/3/2018 at 4:30 AM, Vicious_CB said:

Any idea why ze germans chose a HEAT shaped design?

My version: they tried to reduce parasitic mass of windshield compared to cone-shaped design. Such design affects less on axial fragment spray.

Also spike design provides higher aerodinamic static stability margin compared to cone design, so you can make fins smaller or reduce fin count or move center of gravity to the base by adding base fuze, there are lot of factors.

On 6/3/2018 at 4:30 AM, Vicious_CB said:

I cant imagine the shape is properly optimized to punch through concrete like the other HE rounds are designed to do.

From penetration point of view all projectiles look same, they all have solid, ~1 caliber head if you remove windshield.

[Bronezhilet]

Shape stabilisation increases drag though, and increasing drag together with lowering mass is a double whammy for your deceleration numbers. Although I haven't checked if the increase in Mv offsets the increase in drag.

[Xlucine]

4 hours ago, Bronezhilet said:

...and increasing drag together with lowering mass is a double whammy for your deceleration numbers.

 

Unless you're using the parasitic mass savings to carry a bigger warhead, or a better (e.g. multi-mode) fuse

[FORMATOSE]

British L27 CHARM 3 APFSDS

 

[Ramlaen]

https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/land/4963-xm1147-amp.html

Quote

Northrop Grumman's XM1147 Advanced Multi Purpose (AMP) 120mm cartridge is the next generation high explosive multipurpose round for the ABRAMS M1A2 main battle tank (MBT). The round, when fielded, will replace four rounds currently in inventory (M830, M830A1, M908 and M1028).

Still as Orbital ATK (Orbital ATK became Northrop Grumman's fourth business sector, named Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems, mid last year), the company was awarded a U$16 million contract with options for the first phase of development for the 120mm AMP, XM1147 High Explosive Multi-Purpose with Tracer cartridge. This new tank ammunition will provide ABRAMS crews a multi-purpose round that gives greater mission flexibility and main-gun capability through a single munition for multiple engagement scenarios.

AMP is designed to retain performance of these rounds against primary target sets which include light armor, bunkers, personnel and obstacle reduction/rubbling. The round also adds new capabilities which include antipersonnel airburst out to 2km as well as the ability to breach reinforced concrete walls up to 8in thick with direct and oblique impacts on the wall target.

AMP is compliant to HERO (Hazard of Electromagnetic Radiation to Ordnance) and has the first fully HERO compliant primer. The round also is E3 compliant and has been tested to withstand Electromagnetic Environments, Electromagnetic Pulse and Personnel Electrostatic Discharge.

The AMP warhead also has several advancements in soldier safety. These include an insensitive munition ring that separates the fuze from the warhead at elevate temperatures to prevent warhead detonation in the event of fire. AMP is compliant with STANAG4385 and 4493 requirements. It is interoperable with 120mm smoothbore cannons.

Performance data shows a muzzle velocity of 1,150 metres/second with a range beyond 2,000 metres.

Northrop Grumman expects to begin production in early 2020 as the development is on track with developmental test and evaluation and subsequently, Milestone C approvals to occur at end of year 2019. The company has established a specialised factory at American Ordnance in Iowa that will support production quantities for foreign military or direct commercial sales as early as 2021; and has done initial design work for a scalable (105mm) AMP cartridge.

 

 

[Vicious_CB]

But can it still defeat a T-55 turret? Needing to only take 1 round would greatly reduce the logistics burden the next time we go into Syria. 

 

[SH_MM]

Defeating the ~80 mm thick side armor of the T-55 ≠ being able to defeat the frontal armor of the T-55.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Plus Syria has plenty of T-72 AND is likely to start taking in modern russian gear as soon as they stabilize.

[Collimatrix]

7 hours ago, SH_MM said:

Defeating the ~80 mm thick side armor of the T-55 ≠ being able to defeat the frontal armor of the T-55.

 

The hull sides are 80mm, the turret sides are ~115mm thick.  But I agree; it's a far cry from being able to defeat the front of the turret, which is 200mm thick, or the glacis, which is even tougher.

 

115mm of armor penetration probably corresponded with the thickest concrete wall they thought they would be shooting this thing at.

[Vicious_CB]

13 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

 

The hull sides are 80mm, the turret sides are ~115mm thick.  But I agree; it's a far cry from being able to defeat the front of the turret, which is 200mm thick, or the glacis, which is even tougher.

 

115mm of armor penetration probably corresponded with the thickest concrete wall they thought they would be shooting this thing at.

 

Thats disappointing, you would think they would try to put something like a hardened tungsten in the nose cap to increase penetration since its supposed to replace the current HEAT rounds in service. Is the estimated penetration enough to go through modern IFV frontal armor at least? 

[Lord_James]

6 hours ago, Vicious_CB said:

 

Thats disappointing, you would think they would try to put something like a hardened tungsten in the nose cap to increase penetration since its supposed to replace the current HEAT rounds in service. Is the estimated penetration enough to go through modern IFV frontal armor at least? 

 

What is M829A3? 

[Vicious_CB]

Correct me if Im wrong but doesnt US TTPs dictate to use HEAT on personnel carriers due to the increased after armor effects?

[Lord_James]

2 hours ago, Vicious_CB said:

Correct me if Im wrong but doesnt US TTPs dictate to use HEAT on personnel carriers due to the increased after armor effects?

 

And this is where the new HE comes in, what the sabot won’t mangle, will most likely have thin enough armor that HE will fuck it up pretty bad. The M2 on top of the turret can mess up light vehicles, too. 

 

Basically, if the armor is too thin for the sabot to produce enough fragments, the HE will probably be able to get through it no problem. 

[SH_MM]

 

In the early 1990s, Rheinmetall worked on intelligent munitions for its 105 mm rifled guns and 120 mm smoothbore guns, designed to deal more effectively with helicopters. Two types were in development: a saboted sensor-fuzed rounds with a range of up to 5,000 meters (in case of the version for the 120 mm smoothbore gun) and a muzzle velocity of 1,100 m/s. A second type of saboted ammunition relied on laser-guidance, also providing a range of 5,000 meters and a muzzle velocity of about 1,100 m/s. Both seemed to have HE/fragmentation warheads, but this isn't confirmed.

[Gun Ready]

7 hours ago, SH_MM said:

 

In the early 1990s, Rheinmetall worked on intelligent munitions for its 105 mm rifled guns and 120 mm smoothbore guns, designed to deal more effectively with helicopters. Two types were in development: a saboted sensor-fuzed rounds with a range of up to 5,000 meters (in case of the version for the 120 mm smoothbore gun) and a muzzle velocity of 1,100 m/s. A second type of saboted ammunition relied on laser-guidance, also providing a range of 5,000 meters and a muzzle velocity of about 1,100 m/s. Both seemed to have HE/fragmentation warheads, but this isn't confirmed.

 

Is the right in the photo the laser guided one?

[Vicious_CB]

On 2/19/2019 at 6:46 PM, Lord_James said:

 

And this is where the new HE comes in, what the sabot won’t mangle, will most likely have thin enough armor that HE will fuck it up pretty bad. The M2 on top of the turret can mess up light vehicles, too. 

 

Basically, if the armor is too thin for the sabot to produce enough fragments, the HE will probably be able to get through it no problem. 

 

It seems all these fancy new programmable HE-MP marketing are implying they can replace HEAT against medium and light AFVs. Heres the IMI Hatzav being tested against the side of M-60 turret and against a G*vin. Im not sure if DM11 is being touted as having this capability as well, though I dont see why it shouldnt be able to do the same things as Hatzav and AMP.

 

 

[Vicious_CB]

Why does this design exist? The only advantage over HE-AB that I can think of is a more consistent frag pattern. 

 

 

[Ramlaen]

Much larger payload of pellets for catching flying targets.

[Vicious_CB]

7 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

Much larger payload of pellets for catching flying targets.

 

Is the current 5" Naval gun supposed to be use against aerial targets?  I think it specifically stated KE-ET was developed to counter small high speed craft. Anyway I find these non-HE frag rounds interesting, basically reviving black powder age technology. I dont think its a good idea to give up the M1028 Canister, I think theres something to be said about not having to lase and program a round in a react to contact situation. According to Nicholas Moran, there were issues with engaging targets that were closer than the 30m arming distance of the 120mm HEAT rounds in Iraq instead relying the blast/overpressure to kill the target. I wonder if pellets from the canister round would even spread out from the wadding at that distance. 

 

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2005/garm/wednesday/macmillan.pdf

[Ramlaen]

Yes the Mk45 is able to shoot at aerial targets.

 

The arming distance of XM1147 is much closer than 30m based on that video.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Ramlaen

[LoooSeR]

Zvezda says that this is "secret" shell, so possibly they showed "Telnik" programmable HE-Frag.

   It is kind of... not very good. Amount of frag damage at such distance is rather low, IMO.