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StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

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1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

The problem with these tests is that they don't provide enough data - or at least the excerpts posted only - about the range. While all tests were conducted at a range of 285 meters (35 meters distance to the velocity measuring device and from there 250 meters to the target), the propellant charge has been altered numerous times and ranges from 4.4 to 5.8 kilograms for the KE/38 mm round (120 mm DM13 projectile) in order to simulate different combat distances.

I found them a little bit confusing and perhaps a little too little detail as well.


1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

As the muzzle velocity is apparently 1,470 m/s going by the older source, the simulated range seems to vary from 0 meters to more than 3 kilometers distance. At approximately ~1,000 to 1,200 meters distance, the 38 mm APFSDS seems to have a ballistic perforation limit of roughly ~320 mm steel armor (300 mm steel at 70-80° = no penetration, but plug failure of the steel armor). Interessting (and concering) is the result of the tests against the 50 mm steel plate with a projectile velocity of ~1,400 m/s at 35 meters (overall impact velocity = comparable to 1,000 m distance?): even at 9.2° slope from the horizontal, the steel plate could be penetrated. That kind of proves that the British criticism of the highly sloped upper hull plates of the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams was correct.

I think the diameter of the penetrator matters with this kind of test though:

Velocity also matters and I think having a thicker projectile means some kind of "overmatch" could take place, for both of these DM13 works quite well.

The Brits might've been right, but I think there's more to it than what we can see from these tests.

In any case, there's a good reason why Germany upgraded the UFP of leopard 2s (only on 2A7Vs but, some earlier versions for other countries had it too).

Odd that the US hasn't done the same.


Still think it's a more efficient layout than what the Challenger 1/2 use.


edit: you can also see in that research paper that the hardness of the target plate matters, if the leopard 2 had a HHA hull roof that might've increased the protection by quite a bit.


1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

That doesn't sound right. The Marder 2 was required to protect against 30 mm APFSDS rounds at the frontal arc, which 120 mm of steel armor would do by themselves. How did he measure the base armor, when it is covered by add-on armor modules?

OK, so I asked him again, he said it was 12cm total with the add-on, I thought it was odd too (I probably misunderstood).

More info: roof was 26mm over crew compartment, add-on on LFP was 80mm + 5-10mm of air + 30-40mm base armour.

UFP was 30-40mm base + 5-10mm air + 50mm add-on.


So, I was mistaken and it was 120mm total, excuse me.



edited the wording, don't want my German friend to go all 1939 on me :P

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In other news, Iron Fist - Light has been selected for the Australian Boxer purchase. 




Australia plans to contract Rheinmetall to integrate Iron Fist on the Lance turrets being used on the 121 of the Block II (improved reconnaissance vehicles) Australia is buying under the Land 400 Phase 2 program.”

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Solid choice, although I imagine the turret roof become rather cluttered... smoke grenade launcher, commander's sight (with slaved MG?), situational awareness system, hatches and APS on that tiny roof?


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