Jump to content
Sturgeon's House

StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

A Dingo 2 of the Belgian army was hit by a pressure-activated IED consisting of about 30 kg explosives. The vehicle was part of a German-lead convoy, several German vehicles narrowly missed the IED be

So, did anyone else post pictures of the Marder 2 before? My friends went to Koblenz and took these pictures:   They asked about the penetration of DM33, but apparently it's still being

Technical analysis/evaluation of the VJTF 2023 configuration of the Puma has been finished at the WTD 81. Note the hull mounted cameras/thermal imagers for 360° coverage, mounted at the corners of the

Alright, here is the story of 8.8cm KwK 43 L71 on heavy tanks, per Doyle and Jentz:


-The first attempt to put a KwK 43 on a tank was actually a proposal from Porsche from early 1942.  They would use a modified VK 45.01(p) (Porsche tiger).  Initially this was supposed to be a very straightforward modification of the Porsche tiger, simply with a new turret from Krupp to accommodate the larger armament.  However, the concept evolved, and at some point someone decided the thing ought to have sloped armor.


-The modified turret design somehow evolved from the familiar tiger I turret into an early iteration of the rounded-front tiger II turret (the one we erroneously call the "porsche turret" even though it's a Krupp design).  No trace of the intermediate stages has been discovered.  The final design that would be used on some early tiger IIs shared no components with previously designed turrets, and was one of Krupp's earlier attempts to design a turret with low frontal area.


-As usual, Dr. Porsche couldn't help himself and kept adding more modifications to the design.  He particularly seems to have relished designing alternative power trains.  Here is one iteration, the Porsche Type 180, recognizable to players of World of Tanks under the somewhat fictionalized designation VK 45.02A:




Note the insane suspension design.  The road wheels are sprung with torsion bars, but not normal, sane torsion bars that live in the hull.  Each pair of road wheels shares a torsion bar, slung in those pods underneath the road wheels.  They are sprung against the wheels by a mind-bendingly complicated system of cams and levers.  A small number of jagdtigers were made with this suspension system, as it reduced the man-hours from boring holes in the hull side plates for internal torsion bars; an operation that only the Germans have ever had problems with.


Note also that, despite having the transmission, drive sprocket and engine all in the rear hull and having external suspension, the good people at Krupp have not seen fit to extend the turret basket to the floor of the hull.  There's at least a foot of additional space they're not using FOR NO REASON AT ALL.


-Henschel started design of an improved Tiger that was called VK 45.02 in late 1942.  This evolved into the production tiger II via a long and convoluted route.  Per Doyle and Jentz, even from an early stage the turret design of this tank was essentially the same as for the Porsche designs, with the sole difference being that the turret traverse gear was designed to work with the Henschel drivetrain rather than the Porsche one.



Tiger I turret with KwK 43 is not mentioned at all in my sources, but I have been unable to obtain the ones where it is.  Perhaps it was a proposal for an in-line change or retrofit, unrelated to the main thrust of tiger II development.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Swedish army was fooled by the rumours of GERMAN ENGINEERING QUALITY too and bought a ZF electromechanical gearbox for the strv m/42, primarily because it was light and the army was desperately trying to save a few kilograms, and because there were no Swedish tanks heavier than 10 tons at the time and there was no time to develop a new gearbox domestically.


The thing turned out to be so fucking unreliable that the army suspected sabotage and started an investigative commission which asked some very pointed questions to the ordnance department (who had ordered it) and Landsverk (who built the tank) and sent an investigator to Germany to see if prisoners of war were fucking shit up. It took years and three or four iterations to sort the problems out and bringing the gearbox up to an acceptable level of reliability. In October 1944 the 3rd Armored Regiment at Strängnäs reported that 51 out of 89 strv m/42's with the ZF gearbox were unserviceable. Many of the moving parts in the gearbox were found to be made of materials completely inappropriate to the conditions they were supposed to work in, and tended to break or overheat after tens of kilometers on the road. Eventually the problem was mostly solved by replacing parts with Swedish-manufactured ones of higher quality and adjusting the lubrication several times, but the problem wasn't really solved until late 1944/early 1945.


(mostly) Actual quotes from the sales engineers:

- "oh we're using it in our SIXTY TON TIGER"

- "the magnetic plates are basically eternal, they'll last forever" (actually made of garbage quality steel full of dross, broke early and often)

- "electromagnetic gearboxes are the future, within three or four years they'll be the only gearbox used on new tanks" (said in 1942)

- "Sweden is the only country we're exporting these to, the design is actually classified you know"

- "well, we can't leave any guarantees that our gearboxes will work a fixed number of kilometers or anything, but we're convinced you'll be satisified with them"

- "we promise on our good reputation as a high quality engineering firm that these gearboxes will be good"


Fucking scammers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting information, rehanxue.


Just so everyone is clear, the picture I posted above was not the series production panther transmission.  That is a proposed upgrade that was, at most, experimentally trialed.


Which is a pity; from what renhanxue is saying, it sounds like the war could have been over faster if they had.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Right. The designation for the ZF gearbox for the m/42 was 6 EV 75, IIRC. Meanwhile the army studied captured T-34's in Finland and was like "well, clearly a purely mechanical gearbox is possible, can we please get one like on the T-34 instead of these hydraulic and electromagnetic things?". Then Volvo eventually designed such a gearbox (which I suspect was inspired by the one on the T-34) called VL 420 which was used on the pvkv m/43 TD (same chassis), and a few years after the war all the remaining m/42's with ZF's electromagnetic shit were also refitted with the VL 420, ending the ZF design's miserable existence for good.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Similar Content

    • By Monochromelody
      Disappeared for a long period, Mai_Waffentrager reappeared four months ago. 
      This time, he took out another photoshoped artifact. 

      He claimed that the Japanese prototype 105GSR (105 mm Gun Soft Recoil) used an autoloader similar to Swedish UDES 19 project. Then he showed this pic and said it came from a Japanese patent file. 
      Well, things turn out that it cames from Bofors AG's own patent, with all markings and numbers wiped out. 

      original file→https://patents.google.com/patent/GB1565069A/en?q=top+mounted+gun&assignee=bofors&oq=top+mounted+gun+bofors
      He has not changed since his Type 90 armor scam busted. Guys, stay sharp and be cautious. 
    • By LostCosmonaut
      Backstory (skip if you don't like alternate history junk)
      The year is 2239. It has been roughly 210 years since the world was engulfed in nuclear war. Following the war, the United States splintered into hundreds of small statelets. While much knowledge was retained in some form (mostly through books and other printed media), the loss of population and destruction of industrial capability set back society immensely.
      Though the Pacific Northwest was less badly hit than other areas, the destruction of Seattle and Portland, coupled with the rupturing of the Cascadia Subduction Zone in 2043, caused society to regress to a mid-19th century technology level. However, in the early 2100s, the Cascade Republic formed, centered near Tacoma. The new nation grew rapidly, expanding to encompass most of Washington and Oregon by 2239. The Cascade Republic now extends from the Klamath River in the south to the Fraser River in the north, and from the Pacific roughly to central Idaho. Over time, the standard of living and industrial development improved (initially through salvaging of surviving equipment, by the late 2100s through new development); the population has grown to about 4.5 million (comparable to 1950 levels), and technology is at about a 1940 level. Automobiles are common, aircraft are less common, but not rare by any means. Computers are nonexistent aside from a few experimental devices; while scientists and engineers are aware of the principles behind microchips and other advanced electronics, the facilities to produce such components simply do not exist. Low rate production of early transistors recently restarted.
      The current armored force of the Cascade Republic consists of three armored brigades. They are presently equipped with domestically produced light tanks, dating to the 2190s. Weighing roughly 12 tons and armed with a 40mm gun, they represented the apex of the Cascade Republic's industrial capabilities at the time. And when they were built, they were sufficient for duties such as pacifying survivalist enclaves in remote areas. However, since that time, the geopolitical situation has complicated significantly. There are two main opponents the Cascade Republic's military could expect to face in the near future.
      The first is California. The state of California was hit particularly hard by the nuclear exchange. However, in 2160, several small polities in the southern part of the state near the ruins of Los Angeles unified. Adopting an ideology not unfamiliar to North Korea, the new state declared itself the successor to the legacy of California, and set about forcibly annexing the rest of the state. It took them less than 50 years to unite the rest of California, and spread into parts of Arizona and northern Mexico. While California's expansion stopped at the Klamath River for now, this is only due to poor supply lines and the desire to engage easier targets. (California's northward advanced did provide the final impetus for the last statelets in south Oregon to unify with the Cascade Republic voluntarily).
      California is heavily industrialized, possessing significant air, naval, and armored capabilities. Their technology level is comparable to the Cascade Republic's, but their superior industrial capabilities and population mean that they can produce larger vehicles in greater quantity than other countries. Intelligence shows they have vehicles weighing up to 50 tons with 3 inches of armor, though most of their tanks are much lighter.

      The expected frontlines for an engagement with the Californian military would be the coastal regions in southern Oregon. Advancing up the coastal roads would allow California to capture the most populated and industrialized regions of the Cascade Republic if they advanced far enough north. Fortunately, the terrain near the border is very difficult and favors the defender;

      (near the Californian border)

      The other opponent is Deseret, a Mormon theocratic state centered in Utah, and encompassing much of Nevada, western Colorado, and southern Idaho. Recently, tension has arisen with the Cascade Republic over two main issues. The first is the poorly defined border in Eastern Oregon / Northern Nevada; the old state boundary is virtually meaningless, and though the area is sparsely populated, it does represent a significant land area, with grazing and water resources. The more recent flashpoint is the Cascade Republic's recent annexation of Arco and the area to the east. Deseret historically regarded Idaho as being within its sphere of influence, and maintained several puppet states in the area (the largest being centered in Idaho Falls). They regard the annexation of a signficant (in terms of land area, not population) portion of Idaho as a major intrusion into their rightful territory. That the Cascade Republic has repaired the rail line leading to the old Naval Reactors Facility, and set up a significant military base there only makes the situation worse.
      Deseret's military is light and heavily focused on mobile operations. Though they are less heavily mechanized than the Cascade Republic's forces, operating mostly armored cars and cavalry, they still represent a significant threat  to supply and communication lines in the open terrain of eastern Oregon / southern Idaho.

      (a butte in the disputed region of Idaho, near Arco)
      As the head of a design team in the Cascade Republic military, you have been requested to design a new tank according to one of two specifications (or both if you so desire):
      Medium / Heavy Tank Weight: No more than 45 tons Width: No more than 10.8 feet (3.25 meters) Upper glacis / frontal turret armor of at least 3 in (76mm) LoS thickness Side armor at least 1in (25mm) thick (i.e. resistant to HMG fire) Power/weight ratio of at least 10 hp / ton No more than 6 crew members Primary armament capable of utilizing both anti-armor and high explosive rounds Light tank Weight: No more than 25 tons Width: No more than 10.8 feet Upper glacis / frontal turret armor of at least 1 in thickness Side armor of at least 3/8 in (10mm) thickness Power/weight ratio of at least 12 hp / ton No more than 6 crew members Primary armament capable of utilizing both anti-armor and high explosive rounds  
      Other relevant information:
      Any tank should be designed to operate against either of the Cascade Republic's likely opponents (California or Deseret) The primary heavy machine gun is the M2, the primary medium machine gun is the M240. Use of one or both of these as coaxial and/or secondary armament is encouraged. The secret archives of the Cascade Republic are available for your use. Sadly, there are no running prewar armored vehicles, the best are some rusted hulks that have long been stripped of usable equipment. (Lima Tank Plant ate a 500 kt ground burst) Both HEAT and APFSDS rounds are in testing. APCR is the primary anti-armor round of the Cascade Republic. Either diesel or gasoline engines are acceptable, the Cascade Republic is friendly with oil producing regions in Canada (OOC: Engines are at about a late 1940s/early 50s tech level) The adaptability of the tank to other variants (such as SPAA, SPG, recovery vehicle, etc.) is preferred but not the primary metric that will be used to decide on a design. Ease of maintenance in the field is highly important. Any designs produced will be compared against the M4 Sherman and M3 Stuart (for medium/heavy and light tank), as these blueprints are readily available, and these tanks are well within the Cascade Republic's manufacturing capabilities.  
    • By Sovngard
      Meanwhile at Eurosatory 2018 :
      The Euro Main Battle Tank (EMBT), a private venture project intended for the export market.

    • By Alzoc
      Topic to post photo and video of various AFV seen through a thermal camera.
      I know that we won't be able to make any comparisons on the thermal signature of various tank without knowing which camera took the image and that the same areas (tracks, engine, sometimes exhaust) will always be the ones to show up but anyway:
      Just to see them under a different light than usual (pardon the terrible pun^^)
      Leclerc during a deployment test of the GALIX smoke dispenser:
      The picture on the bottom right was made using the castor sight (AMX 10 RC, AMX 30 B2)
      Akatsiya :


      A T-62 I think between 2 APC:




      Cougar 4x4:


  • Create New...