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Hope that doesn't go through. Better just buy new, NATO-standard tanks. I remember when converting more T-55's became more expensive than buying a complete Namer. Don't do that mistake guys. Make the investment.

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On 29.8.2017 at 10:55 AM, Xoon said:

Damian called it the PT-91M2. 

And a link he posted: https://katowice.tvp.pl/33765287/bum...zacji-twardego

 

 

According to what I have read/heard, this isI the PT-17, the PT-91M2 is another tank. I.e. this is a new version of the PT-16 mainly meant as export option and to show that Bumar Łabędy can make tanks (so when the Polish government decides to develop a tank, they are more likely to choose Bumar instead of a foreign company).

 

The PT-92M2 is supposed to be a modernization of the T-72M1 tanks operated in Polish Army, its a budget modernization only - this means adding new ERAWA ERA (some people talk about ERAWA-3, some mention currently existing ERAWA-2 ERA), new thermal sights and a laser warning system. That would mean it's actually worse than the PT-91M despite the name.

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On 30.08.2017 at 3:05 PM, SH_MM said:

The PT-92M2 is supposed to be a modernization of the T-72M1 tanks operated in Polish Army, its a budget modernization only - this means adding new ERAWA ERA (some people talk about ERAWA-3, some mention currently existing ERAWA-2 ERA), new thermal sights and a laser warning system. That would mean it's actually worse than the PT-91M despite the name.

 

PT-91M2 is almoust exatcly ctrl+c/ctrl+v this what I suggest here:

https://we.tl/zj6Yrq288z

(my article from 9/2015 for downloade for free - beta version so comenst under images are BS)

 

PT-91M2 is this what is needed by PolishArmy:

 

1) New gun from Konstrukta (2A46MS)

2) New sabilisation (EPS-97 Albatross or Ukrianian 2E42M  -teh same as in Bulat's)

3) New or refresh FCS (new SAVAN or polish Drawa-TGA)

4) APU

5) Soft-kill Obra-3

6) SOD (system obserwacji dookrężnej) - double thermal/day cameras whit 360 degree around turret

7) slat/bar armour

8) maybe ERAWA-3 (so polonisated Knive/Duplet)

 

About prices - valuse form Malaysian contract from 2002-2004:

EPS stabilisation -  130k EURO
SKO SAVAN-15 + Vigy 821k EURO // or Drawa TGA - 1,2 mln PLN
125mm 2A46MS  - 110k USD
turret  non-retractile bearing - 60k Euro
ERAWA complet  (142k PLN)
Obra-3 23,75k USD
etc

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New SPH Krab (Crab) in short videoclip.

Crews says that they are wery wery suprise ho god is K9 chassis whit hydropneumatic torsion - it's really good ant stabilisatin time after shoot is very short.

First 24 SPH's will be in service until december.

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Very very good video from polish SPH Krab:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B07EVig2xQ8FdDZSWWVoeXdhVFk/view

 

(this video will be removed soon IMHO couse it is inner Polish Army video for artilery unit and there is to mucht shown in term C3 and BMS...)
so enjoy it or copy to another serwer  ;-)

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I've met one pole.

 

A helicopter mechanic who came to the U.S. in the 80's. 

 

Fun guy. also,  stupidly smart.  As in "things you thought were dumb, he knew loads about".

 

Ended up working with him.  learned more about keeping helos flying in those eight months than two years of school.

 

Just like working with Russians and tanks.Or Brits and Small arms.  Somethings just click. 

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Apparently Poland is developing a new MBT. I am not entirely sure if they already have chosen any contractors/partners, but the Polish website Defence24.pl has published articles/interviews with representatives from different European defence companies.

 

According to Rheinmetall's Otmar Schlutheis, if Rheinmetall was chosen as the main contractor/partner to develop the new tank, it would be "Polish", despite the projections from the company suggesting it to be based on Rheinmetall's ideas and Rheinmetall's concepts, while being fitted with technology from Rheinmetall (that's essentially the output of Google Translator). The Polish industry still should be involved.

Core work would still be carried out in Germany by Rheinmetall, but they would integrate Polish-made components if desired. The production of the whole tank or only a limited amount of components could be outsourced to Poland

 

http://www.defence24.pl/703490,nowy-czolg-dla-polski-oparty-na-rozwiazaniach-rheinmetall-defence24pl-tv

 

 

 

BAE Systems is suggesting a lighter tank. Mobility and situational awareness would matter more than armor protection. The lower weight would enable the tank to operate in all terrain conditions. Aside of passive armor, the BAE proposal includes active protection systems to protect the vehicle. Transfer of technology is offered.

 

http://www.defence24.pl/703506,bae-systems-przyszly-czolg-bedzie-lekki-i-mobilny-defence24pl-tv

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Quote

Poland to upgrade T-72 tanks and Dana SPHs

Remigiusz Wilk - Jane's Defence Weekly
13 December 2017
 

Poland’s Armament Inspectorate has begun a market analysis on the possible upgrade of the T-72M1/M1D tank.

“We want to modernise the T-72,” Deputy Defence Minister Bartosz Kownacki told the Gazeta Polska Codziennie daily on 8 December. “Upgrading a tank costs around PLN4 million (USD1.1 million). We have 300 such vehicles, so the contract will be for over PLN1 billion.”

The 18-month analysis will be followed by a formal procedure.

The plan is to upgrade existing second-line tanks to a new standard and use them as an interim solution before a new generation tank is introduced.

New 125 mm ammunition is planned to increase the upgraded T-72’s anti-tank capability.

Bumar-Łabędy, part of Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa (PGZ), unveiled the PT-91M2 modernisation package for the T-72 at the MSPO defence exhibition in September.

The upgraded tank is equipped with new generation ERAWA reactive armour and additional rear cage armour. It is armed with a Slovak-produced 2A46MS125 mm/L46 gun with a modernised automatic carousel loader and fitted with the SAVAN-15 fire control system. Additional ammunition has been relocated inside the hull.

The driver’s seat is equipped with a PNK-72 Radomka night vision driver sight and KDN-1 Nyks day/night rear camera. Optional equipment includes a TKN-3Z night vision sight for the commander and SOD 360-degree observation system already installed In the M120K Rak self-propelled mortar.

The PT-91M2 features a reinforced suspension and upgraded Cx mechanical transmission with an 850-hp S-12U engine. The tank has steel tracks with rubber pads and an auxiliary power unit.

Jane’s has also learned about plans for wz. 77 Dana 8x8 wheeled 152 mm self-propelled howitzers (SPHs) to be upgraded in 2018–20.

Poland plans to retain the 152 mm gun instead of replacing it with a NATO standard 155 mm howitzer.

The main focus of the modernisation will be to upgrade the Tatra T-815 VT Kolos chassis and SPH gun recoil and electro-hydraulic elevation system to reduce the time needed between the first and last shot.

 

http://www.janes.com/article/76333/poland-to-upgrade-t-72-tanks-and-dana-sphs

 

Seems like PT-16 and PT-17 demonstrattors are not liked by the Polish military, instead the PT-91M2 will be introduced (as upgrade of old T-72 tanks).

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No idea, but it might be the same ammo already in use with the PT-91. The old T-72 tanks might still be fitted with the old 2A46(-1) gun, which has a lower pressure limit than the 2A46M(S) (e.g. 5,100 bar vs 6,500 bar according to Fofanov).

However the development/introduction of a newer APFSDS type should also be an option.

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Hello back ;-)

 

I) Polish Leopard 2PL program have one year delay couse two polish factories (ZM Tarnów and PCO)  where unable to take technology from German Rheinmettal in propper time. So not 2020 but 2021 as DOI for 2APL.

 

II) Polish T-72M1 and PT-91 will be modernisated. At least 223 PT-91 and ~120 T-72M1. So 6 batalions (polish Tk.Bn have 58 tanks in 4 companies - eacht 14 tanks + 2 tanks in Bn.HQ)  Sevral facts:

 

1) Base upgrade for polish T-72M1 will be almoust the same as russian T-72BA.  After that tanks will be upgrade to other wariat - common whit PT-91. So firstly - deep rebuild whit new APU, night vision (Liswarta nad Radomka from PCO), Deugra, modernisated AZ, newo fuel system, new electric system, new consoles for all tan crew members, new smoke charges and Obra-3, and other minor changes. After this T-72M1 will be obligatory upgraded to PT-91 standard.   

2) All tanks will have new ERAWA-2 whit two type casettes - heavy and light (aluminia alloys). No Knive/Duplet will be introduced couse weight reson and fact that in "light" version of Knive there was no diffrent protection then in ERAWA-2. Of course heavy Duplet is better but due to weight reson it's imposible to put it on PT-91 or T-72M1. And light version is  on par whit K5 and  lest's say  - not so good in two areas as ERAWA-2. Including tanderm warhed :)))    So upgreaded ERAWA will stay whit PT-91 and T-72M1 couse ist still good solution. What funny - Knive wasttested in Poland and ERAWA-3 will be based on it, but whole problem is whit obligatory heavy ERA casettes for Knive/Duplet - in this (heavy...) solutions is hidden Kive/Duplet effetivnes.

3) Polish factory give polish MoD sevral option for modernisation. Base level (rebuild only) will cost circa 1,1mln USD and after this we have sevral options whit many diffrent components including FCS from France, Turkey or Israeli, 2A46MS from Slovakia, thre diffrent stabilisation system (mostly EPS) and new turret ring. Of course there are many options. Rumors says that middle version (Savan-15, 2A46MS, EPS Albatross, new turret ring, etc) will cost like combat Rosomak M1M so circa 13mln PLN so circa 3,82mln USD per tank. The most advanced version is like PT-91M2+ whit new power-pack whit new engine and ESM.

Before june polish MoD will chose what range of modernisation and in what cost will be done. Propably wole program for at least ~350 tanks will be asigned on MSPO2018. 

 

 

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On 13.12.2017 at 8:07 PM, Ramlaen said:

Any idea what the new ammunition will be?

 

Yes.

As short term solution:

APFSDS "Ryś" whit Plansee rods:

ISzA78I.png

 

As long-term solution - new 125mm APFSDS whit composite sabot and rod lenght equal to cira ~58cm. The problem is that polish amunition industry is looking composite sabot for 125mm on short list stays: USA whit it's "black project" for 125mm, France and one more partner. This long-term solution is IMHO not very sure... 

 

 

 

 

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Well mamy people here  propably had remember trials when 4x shoot DM33A1 fails against PT-91M armour (Whit ERAWA-2) armour from 600m distance:

Some trials in pdf:

WSTĘPNA ANALIZA ZJAWISKA RYKOSZETOWANIA WYDŁUŻONYCH PENETRATORÓW POCISKÓW KINETYCZNYCH

CVbZUM1.jpg

 

 

Well it's seems that at leat 91-94 polish PT-91 (build in 90s) and all Malaysian PT-91M have new armour in turret and in hull. 

Accoding to manufacurer PT-91M have 500mm RHA vs KE on turret at 30. Hull the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Andrei_bt said:

well there are well known photos showing the same STB hull as T-72A

 

Yes, and we don't know WHAT batch of  PT-91 is showing this photo05d40ae2415a1.jpg:

 

And this:

 

6f85bb4dff805.jpg

 

743984d56dfa8.jpg

 

 

02bd2d667df19.jpg

 

Cluou: Polish PT-91 was menufacured in sevral batched whit diffrent armour filter acoding to multiple polish sources:

www.obrum.gliwice.pl/upload/downloads/spg/204/14-CHODKIEWICZ.pdf (2004)

(notice mr Karol Chodkiewicz was general enginer of PT-91 tank):

a1265dcbbe25a.gif

 

Older source (phd Wiśniewski) mantioned about CAWA2 armour (ceramics-steel) for hull and new turret.

And manufacurer polish matrial claims:

Quote

W celu zwiększenia zdolności obronnej czołgu zastosowano pancerz kompozytowy w wieży i płycie czołowej kadłuba oraz


pancerz reaktywny(...) W ściankach części odlewu wieży znajdują się wkładki kompozytowe zwiększające odporność pancerza na
przebicie pociskami pancernymi

What literally means: To incarase tank protection in takn was used composite armour in turret and hull front plate and aditional reactive armour (...) In parto of turret cast are placed composite inserts to incarease armour protection against penetration by AP rounds

 

PT-91 was introduced to Polish Army in 1993 and produced in sucht batch:

58 tanks between 1994 and 1996

58 tanks in 1997

7 tanks in 1998

33 tanks in 1999

50 tanks in 2000

20 tanks in 2001

7 tanks in 2002

48 malaysian tank in 2005-2009

 

And minor and major changes was:

1st batch - PT-91 -  92 tanks (new tanks)

2th btach  was PT-91M  introduced in half 1997 - 27 tanks: (new tanks)

3th bath after 1998 to PT-91M1 - 113 tanks (rebuild T-72M1)

4th "export" bath between 2004-2009 48 tanks  - but whit turret produced erlyer

 

So back to the point - PT-91 had 4 production bathes when one (3th after 1998 - 113 tanks) where just rebuild T-72M1 for cost resons,  part of the  1st bath (1994-1996) was like T-72M1 (and this bath photos we have) bath 4th (Malaysian) have definetly changed to ceramic inserts turret and hull armour (confirm in manufacurer sources) but...turret for this part where produced before 2000 :) So basicly -there was some armour change in 90's. based on CAWA2 armour 

 

ps. turret:

6aa97689294fb.jpg

Again wery old photo from erly 1990s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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