TokyoMorose Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 8 hours ago, Zadlo said: Not any important constructions in AFVs are made in Poland use aluminium. But ERAWA-1 version for Malaysian PT-91M uses casettes made of aluminium. In our case we're going more to use technology of non-iron metal alloys casting than to weld constructions made of aluminium or titanium. For example, new composite armor from LUBAWA uses titanium casettes which are casted. All I want to add in here, for my two cents, is that manufacturing cassettes for armor is substantially less complex than welding together large complex assemblies of aluminum or titanium. That said, cast titanium is certainly an... *interesting* choice from LUBAWA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/14/2018 at 1:49 PM, SH_MM said: . The construction of the turret isn't extremely complicated, but it is made of aluminium - if you take a look at the Polish arms industry, you'll notice that they don't actually make use of any aluminium constructions in their armored fighting vehicles. Nope :-) Hitfist 30P is made of aluminum and welding is in Poland. In NTW where photos from Bumar factory from welding turret. I had posted them on DFI many years ago. If I found them I will post it here. SH_MM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I've got the photos: I thought the turret is made in Italy and only mated with the hull in Poland. The website from Bumar Łabędy says: "The HITFIST-30P combat turret is a combat compartment for two persons and is manufactured in collaboration with Oto Melara s.p.a. The turret is furnished with the 30 mm ATK Mk 44 automatic cannon with a dual-feed chain system of ammunition. The additional weapon installed in the turret is the coupled coaxial machine gun of UKM-2000C make." - http://bumar.gliwice.pl/production/strefa-militarna/uzbrojenie/wieza-bojowa-hitfist-30p/?lang=en I understood this as "made in Italy and fitted with the Polish components by Bumar Łabędy", but maybe I was wrong. What alloy is it made of? Militarysta 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Yes, many t(h)anks! - Those are this old photos from NowaTechnika Wojskowa Magazine. The turret zitadele is welded in Poland i ZM Bumar Łabędy. Whit Al alloys. For me is unkown source of Al plates, but there are welded in ZM BŁ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadlo Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 According to Bumar the aluminium part of HITFIST-30p is welded in Gliwice since 2006 - 2008. And maybe even they have welded the one for unmanned HITFIST-OWS prototype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Zadlo said: According to Bumar the aluminium part of HITFIST-30p is welded in Gliwice since 2006 - 2008. And maybe even they have welded the one for unmanned HITFIST-OWS. My translation of the first sentense from the middle paragraph for nromal language for users here: "Was developed and manufacured full welding aluminia line, was bought CNC center, it was preapared full equipment for Hitfist 30P production line." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadlo Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 And additionally photos from MSPO 2012 Spoiler SH_MM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 And furthet details about these cast titanium cassettes? The polish ERA does seem quite a sensible solution, so it would be intetesting to see what they are up to now. (Polish ERA tends to use a high brisance explosive, which is great for defeating the tip of a Shape charge jet, but relies on the cassette assembly to stop bullets from detonating the ERA). it kinda reminds me of a flak jacket with a layer of high explosive glued to the back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted October 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division. Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer Rafał Mniedło: Karamazov, Scolopax, Serge and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Ready Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 On 10/20/2018 at 9:10 AM, Militarysta said: Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division. Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer Rafał Mniedło: Really very nice fotos from Leopard 2 A4. It is a pitty that this tank cannot withstand a possible threat of today. The Polish Army needs some upgrade to more than the Leopard 2 A5 they also have in use and not a downgrade to the PL version! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 Life is cruel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted October 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Gun Ready said: Really very nice fotos from Leopard 2 A4. It is a pitty that this tank cannot withstand a possible threat of today. The Polish Army needs some upgrade to more than the Leopard 2 A5 they also have in use and not a downgrade to the PL version! Well 2PL modernisation is in progres. Despite fact that polish industry had obvious problem whit absorb german know-how in some areas (and PCO thermal camras factory is "stuck") there are some serious doubts about some Rheinmettal components for 2PL when 2PL faild some tests in Poland. Unfortunatly polish army had more problems then tanks - decapitated HQ by political cleansing, completly stupid military movment to estern border, creating new forces (terytorial forces -wanabe comando seal spetznaz killer ASGay), dying naval, only very small number operational F-16 and junky MiG-29 and Su-22 whit seriously safety incidents (toxis air conditionig in pilot mask, not working K36 etc). More or less polish army is fucked mostly by politicians who are trying to incarase PA numbers but whit constans $ level - ok it's 1,98-2% GDP but whole Poland made GDP like circa germans Bavaria Land... Tank, firearms, ATGMS etc are less important then whole system, and this in Poland have cancer :/ - mostly by political manual steereing by completly idiots who firstly where afraid about "army loyalyty" in relatio to new "Law and Justice" (PiS) goverment in Poland (since 2015), so they just decapitayted HQ by retired ca 70% generlas and then they had started to manually reform Polis Army and military industry. What is completly faild in both aspects. One very simple example - in Poland where 34 Arm. Tk. Bde on Leopard 2A5 tanks in Żagań City (western border - close to L2A5 rebuild base in Poznań City and whit big trening ground whit modern trening center). All in one place whit 15 miles near 10 Tk Bde (On. 2A4 Leopards). Two batalion in 34 bde, all after OPEVAL and certificated in NATO. New MOD and PM in 2015 had decide that "estern border is not protect against Russian attack" and they had decide to move whole brigade to Warshaw (where was in deep reserve 1 Tk Bde) . In Warshaw (Wesoła city) ther is no infrastructure, nor trening ground for more then one regiment. And teh put whole Tk. Bde... And of course it's not just "moving" but forming 1 Warsaw Tk Bde on new tanks. The result is dismount 34 Tk. Bde and 1 Tk Bde is not forming on Leo2A5 still. Maybe in 2020 tehy will be redy for opeval. But im doubt. Of course the whole general staff protested so Law and Justice MOD just retired whole general staff... And this is only one SMALL example of how fucked is polish army now. Other example - Polish PGZ military industry - since 2015 the had five diffrent GM and CEO and whole upper menagment where changed six time in complete personal composition! During only 3 years!. And of course - those all GM's and CEOs and managment where not experts - they just Law and Justice party members or brown nose close to the Kaczyński (Law and Justice chief) or MOD or PM. Really whe have here more seriously problems then only Leopard 2A4... :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretic88 Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 On 10/20/2018 at 9:10 AM, Militarysta said: Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division. Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer Rafał Mniedło: Nice photos! Thanks! How many BRM-1Ks are in service? Are there any plans to modernize them? With some upgrades (thermal sight, digital signal processing for radar), it would be a decent recon vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadlo Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 1 hour ago, heretic88 said: Nice photos! Thanks! How many BRM-1Ks are in service? Are there any plans to modernize them? With some upgrades (thermal sight, digital signal processing for radar), it would be a decent recon vehicle. 22 BRM-1K and 16 BPsV. And all of them are currently modernized by WZM from Poznan - at least 5 vehicles are after that. The modernized version received: - new optoelectronic head ZIG-T-2R - SR HAWK (V)RE battlefield surveillance radar - IR binoculars JIM LR - Radmor RRC-9311 AP, AN/PRC-150(C), AN/PRC-117G and AN/PRC-152A radios - Honeywell TALIN 5000 - MIMIC mine detector - AP4C and DPO NBC detectors - SSP-1 OBRA-3 LWR - Berberys-C multispectral camouflage - new passive night-vision vehicle devices Spoiler heretic88 and Serge 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valryon Posted December 20, 2018 Report Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) First 3 Leopards 2PL delivered to Bumar Łabędy. Another pic from Tomasz Dmitruk. Edited December 21, 2018 by Valryon Ramlaen, Laviduce, 123 and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted December 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Ho ho ho Merry x-mas T-72M1 durability and relability All based on "CONSIDERATION OF WEAPON SYSTEMS AVAILABILITY IN EARLY OPERATION PhASE" Analiza przebiegu wprowadzania elementów systemu uzbrojenia do eksploatacji wykona- no na przykładzie czołgu PT-91 Twardy. Zebrano informacje eksploatacyjne z okresu 3 lat i 2 miesięcy w warunkach garnizonowych dla 144 czołgów użytkowanych do szkolenia żołnierzy. Translate: PT-91 Twardy tank, during 3 yers and 2 months for 144 tanks. W okresie obserwacji (1174 dni) czołgi uszkodziły się łącznie 510 razy ze średnim czasem napraw 27 dni. Zmienność uszkadzalności mieściła się między 1 a 14 uszkodzeniami, ze średnią liczbą uszkodzeń ponad 3 uszkodzenia przypadające na jeden obiekt. Uszkodzenia były zgłaszane jako uszkodzenia gwarancyjne i uznano reklamacje dotyczące 364 uszkodzeń, skąd można wnioskować, że ok. 71% uszkodzeń było uszkodzeniami wczesnymi pochodzącymi z fazy produkcyjnej, a pozostałe miały inne podłoże niż błędy procesu produkcyj- nego During trials period (1174 days) we had 510 PT-91 falitures whit avarage time to repair 27 days. Avarage faliture ratio was 3 per tank but during trials it was between 1 to 14 for eacht tank. Important: falitures under factory warranty was in number ca 364 so up to 71%. All was procedure due to factory production. Translation from english for normal users here: up to 71% falitures was cased by non-existin quality control in Bumar-łabędy and fucked up production process. Summary in one table: And compare old Leopard 2A4 and PT-91: (black - Leopard2A4 white - PT-91) Molota_477, Xlucine and Laviduce 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretic88 Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Merry Christmas everyone! Regarding polish T-72 reliability... Was there any difference between domestic and export models? Just asking this because according to old hungarian tankists, there were problems with polish built tanks. One example, a hungarian colonel's memoirs: "A szovjet gyártmányú T-72-esekkel elmentünk több mint kétezer km-t, mire elkezdtek beégni a porlasztócsúcsok, 3-4 ezer km után pedig a turbófeltöltő csapágyai kibuktak a 25 ezres fordulattól. Utána elhasználódtak a bolygóműves kihajtás átömlő furatai, melyek a sok tengelykapcsolót meg egyebeket működtetik. Szóval összességében megbízhatóak voltak. Viszont a lengyel gyártmányú T-72-esek, melyekkel Tatán a negyedik zászlóaljam volt felszerelve, pocsék módon voltak szerelve, 50 kilométert sem mentek el, ha a gyári szerelőbrigád nem végzett rajtuk javítást." .... "Használtunk csehszlovák gyártmányú T-72-ket is. Végszerelésükben lényegesen jobbak voltak, mint a lengyelek, de gyengébb minőségűek, mint az eredeti szovjet. A csehszlovák kocsik ugyanis hibridek voltak - az előmelegítő román, az üzemanyagtartály magyar, a Gödöllői Gépgyárból, az optika keletnémet, Jena-Zeiss, a motor lengyel." Translation: Soviet built T-72s ran more than 2000km, when the injector heads began to seize, after 3-4 thousand kilometers the bearings of the turbocharger (obviously not turbo - my correction) began to fail due to 25.000 rpm. Later, the planetary transmission's (oil) outlets began to wear out, which controlled the clutches and other devices. All in all, they were reliable. On the other hand, the polish built T-72s, my 4th battalion on Tata was equipped with, were terribly badly built, they didnt even ran 50 kilometres unless the factory's mechanics didnt perform repairs on them. ... "We used czechslovak built T-72s too. They were remarkably better built than polish, but still weaker than the original soviet. Czechslovak tanks were hybrids - pre heater romanian, fuel tanks hungarian from Gödöllő Machine Factory, optics east german, Jena-Zeiss, engine polish." That_Baka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadlo Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 On 3/18/2018 at 9:59 PM, Andrei_bt said: ERA is another product. > necroposting CAWA is not ERA, it's classic non-metallic armor which was created for whole T-72 family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei_bt Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 Quote During trials period (1174 days) we had 510 PT-91 falitures whit avarage time to repair 27 days. Avarage faliture ratio was 3 per tank but during trials it was between 1 to 14 for eacht tank. Important: falitures under factory warranty was in number ca 364 so up to 71%. All was procedure due to factory production. Translation from english for normal users here: up to 71% falitures was cased by non-existin quality control in Bumar-łabędy and fucked up production process. If so, maybe it's a problem of T-72M manafacture (upgrede) in Poland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 18 hours ago, heretic88 said: Merry Christmas everyone! Regarding polish T-72 reliability... Was there any difference between domestic and export models? Just asking this because according to old hungarian tankists, there were problems with polish built tanks. One example, a hungarian colonel's memoirs: Translation: Soviet built T-72s ran more than 2000km, when the injector heads began to seize, after 3-4 thousand kilometers the bearings of the turbocharger (obviously not turbo - my correction) began to fail due to 25.000 rpm. Later, the planetary transmission's (oil) outlets began to wear out, which controlled the clutches and other devices. All in all, they were reliable. On the other hand, the polish built T-72s, my 4th battalion on Tata was equipped with, were terribly badly built, they didnt even ran 50 kilometres unless the factory's mechanics didnt perform repairs on them. ... "We used czechslovak built T-72s too. They were remarkably better built than polish, but still weaker than the original soviet. Czechslovak tanks were hybrids - pre heater romanian, fuel tanks hungarian from Gödöllő Machine Factory, optics east german, Jena-Zeiss, engine polish." Well hard to wirte for patryotism resons but indeed - polish made T-72M1 alway was theriblle quality. Polish Army in 80's had the same problem - soviet made T-72M1 was quite OK, polish ones - Jusus fuckin Christ! - like in pdf linked in my previous post. All is depend on non-existinq quality controll in Bumar-Labędy. And big hurry whit running up T-72M1 production in Poland. BTW - funny quiz for you guys - how many producktion lines T-72M1 was in socjalyst Poland? And which components where banned by Soviets for productioon in Poland? heretic88 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretic88 Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 Well, not just T-72s... We had similar experiences with T-55s too. On the other hand, polish built T-34s were excellent, probably the best... We usually sent air defense stuff (ZSU-23-4, 2K12 Kub, 2K11 Krug, etc) for capital repair to poland, and the quality of maintenance works was always excellent. Strange that Bumar Labedy was an exception, when other polish manufacturing/maintenance plants were capable of first class work... Valryon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Ready Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 The photos of the Leopard 2 PL from Valryon show that the chassis is still kept at the Leopard 2 A4 configuration. That add-on armour on the turret looks to be more for all-around protection against RPG and not so much against frontal HEAT protection. The total weight of that vehicle would be interesting to know. Has anybody some figures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valryon Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 @Gun Ready 2PL should weigh around 59 tons. Can't go beyond 60t because you need to reinforce the suspension. And this is where it gets expensive. Also armor inserts probably won't be replaced(because of the weight limitation) so sadly overall protection is not going to be that great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Ready Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 @Valryon with your estimation the add-on armour of the 2PL is just 4 tons as the 2A4 is 55 tons. So the Hungarian Army did the better choice with the 2A7+ having protection as the 2A5 at the turret, frontal protection at the chassis as the Danish 2A5 and mine protection. All this with less than 64 tons. Of course this is a much more expensive solution and can be done only by the OEM in a new built tank but is best for the threat of today and tomorrow! Congratulations to the Magyars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretic88 Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, Gun Ready said: Hungarian Army did the better choice with the 2A7+ having protection as the 2A5 at the turret, frontal protection at the chassis as the Danish 2A5 and mine protection. All this with less than 64 tons. Of course this is a much more expensive solution and can be done only by the OEM in a new built tank but is best for the threat of today and tomorrow! Congratulations to the Magyars. Yes, we'll pay for this with 400 hours of overtime Gun Ready 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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