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8 hours ago, Zadlo said:

Not any important constructions in AFVs are made in Poland use aluminium. But ERAWA-1 version for Malaysian PT-91M uses casettes made of aluminium.

In our case we're going more to use technology of non-iron metal alloys casting than to weld constructions made of aluminium or titanium.

For example, new composite armor from LUBAWA uses titanium casettes which are casted.

 

All I want to add in here, for my two cents, is that manufacturing cassettes for armor is substantially less complex than welding together large complex assemblies of aluminum or titanium. That said, cast titanium is certainly an... *interesting* choice from LUBAWA.

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On 10/14/2018 at 1:49 PM, SH_MM said:

 

. The construction of the turret isn't extremely complicated, but it is made of aluminium - if you take a look at the Polish arms industry, you'll notice that they don't actually make use of any aluminium constructions in their armored fighting vehicles.

 

Nope :-)

Hitfist 30P is made of aluminum and welding is in Poland.

In NTW where photos from Bumar factory from welding turret. I had posted them on DFI many years ago. If I found them I will post it here.

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I've got the photos:

 

EbBuMVg.jpg

GH0jZ08.jpg

LxGNUHs.jpg

OYyYH9t.jpg

 

I thought the turret is made in Italy and only mated with the hull in Poland. The website from Bumar Łabędy says: "The HITFIST-30P combat turret is a combat compartment for two persons and is manufactured in collaboration with Oto Melara s.p.a. The turret is furnished with the 30 mm ATK Mk 44 automatic cannon with a dual-feed chain system of ammunition. The additional weapon installed in the turret is the coupled coaxial machine gun of UKM-2000C make." - http://bumar.gliwice.pl/production/strefa-militarna/uzbrojenie/wieza-bojowa-hitfist-30p/?lang=en

 

I understood this as "made in Italy and fitted with the Polish components by Bumar Łabędy", but maybe I was wrong. What alloy is it made of?

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Yes, many t(h)anks! - Those are this old photos from NowaTechnika Wojskowa Magazine.

 

The turret zitadele is welded in Poland i ZM Bumar Łabędy. Whit Al alloys. For me is unkown source of Al plates, but there are welded in ZM BŁ.

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According to Bumar the aluminium part of HITFIST-30p is welded in Gliwice since 2006 - 2008.

And maybe even they have welded the one for unmanned HITFIST-OWS prototype.

 

tTjZMIt.png

 

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1 minute ago, Zadlo said:

According to Bumar the aluminium part of HITFIST-30p is welded in Gliwice since 2006 - 2008.

And maybe even they have welded the one for unmanned HITFIST-OWS.

 

tTjZMIt.png

 

My translation of the first sentense from the middle paragraph for nromal language for users here:

"Was developed and manufacured full welding aluminia line, was bought CNC center, it was preapared full equipment for Hitfist 30P production line."

 

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And furthet details about these cast titanium cassettes?  The polish ERA does seem quite a sensible solution, so it would be intetesting to see what they are up to now.

 

(Polish ERA tends to use a high brisance explosive, which is great for defeating the tip of a Shape charge jet, but relies on the cassette assembly to stop bullets from detonating the ERA).   it kinda reminds me of a flak jacket with a layer of high explosive glued to the back!

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:10 AM, Militarysta said:

Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division.

Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer  Rafał Mniedło:

 

FrbfhLU.jpg

 

62uvLvQ.jpg

 

FA09IRJ.jpg

 

FignHJB.jpg

 

KjPGswU.jpg

 

EngEsqu.jpg

 

x5BX8lI.jpg

 

IoHkfUc.jpg

 

q5VKfCQ.jpg

 

0nbN82w.jpg

 

 

 

 

Really very nice fotos from Leopard 2 A4. It is a pitty that this tank cannot withstand a possible threat of today. The Polish Army needs some upgrade to more than the Leopard 2 A5 they also have in use and not a downgrade to the PL version!

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3 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

Really very nice fotos from Leopard 2 A4. It is a pitty that this tank cannot withstand a possible threat of today. The Polish Army needs some upgrade to more than the Leopard 2 A5 they also have in use and not a downgrade to the PL version!

 

Well 2PL modernisation is in progres. Despite fact that polish industry had obvious problem whit absorb german know-how in some areas (and PCO thermal camras factory is "stuck") there are some serious doubts about  some Rheinmettal components for 2PL when 2PL faild some tests in Poland.  

 

Unfortunatly polish army had more problems then tanks - decapitated HQ by political cleansing, completly stupid military movment to estern border, creating new forces (terytorial forces -wanabe comando seal spetznaz killer ASGay),    dying naval, only very small number operational F-16 and junky MiG-29 and Su-22 whit seriously safety incidents (toxis air conditionig in pilot mask, not working K36 etc). More or less polish army is fucked mostly by politicians who are trying to incarase PA numbers but whit constans $ level - ok it's 1,98-2% GDP but whole Poland made GDP like circa germans Bavaria Land... Tank, firearms, ATGMS etc are less important then whole system, and this in Poland have cancer :/ - mostly by political manual steereing by completly idiots who firstly where afraid about "army loyalyty" in relatio to new "Law and Justice" (PiS) goverment in Poland (since 2015), so they just decapitayted HQ by retired ca 70% generlas and then they had started to manually reform Polis Army and military industry. What is completly faild in both aspects. 

One very simple example  - in Poland where 34 Arm. Tk. Bde on Leopard 2A5 tanks in Żagań City (western border - close to L2A5 rebuild base in Poznań City and whit big trening ground whit modern trening center). All in one place whit 15 miles near 10 Tk Bde (On. 2A4 Leopards). Two batalion in 34 bde, all after OPEVAL and certificated in NATO.  New MOD and PM in 2015 had decide that "estern border is not protect against Russian attack" and they had decide to move whole brigade to Warshaw (where was in deep reserve 1 Tk Bde) . In Warshaw (Wesoła city) ther is no infrastructure, nor trening ground for more then one regiment. And teh put whole Tk. Bde...  And  of course it's not just "moving" but forming 1 Warsaw Tk Bde on new tanks. The result is  dismount 34 Tk. Bde and 1 Tk Bde is not forming on Leo2A5 still. Maybe in 2020 tehy will be redy for opeval. But im doubt.

Of course the whole general staff protested  so Law and Justice MOD just retired whole general staff...  And this is only one SMALL example of how fucked is polish army now.

 

Other example - Polish PGZ military industry - since 2015 the had five diffrent GM and CEO and whole upper menagment where changed six time in complete personal composition!  During only 3 years!. And of course - those all GM's and CEOs and managment where not experts - they just Law and Justice party members or brown nose close to the Kaczyński (Law and Justice chief) or MOD or PM. 

 

Really whe have here more seriously problems then only Leopard 2A4... :/

 

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:10 AM, Militarysta said:

Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division.

Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer  Rafał Mniedło:

 

Nice photos! Thanks!

 

How many BRM-1Ks are in service? Are there any plans to modernize them? With some upgrades (thermal sight, digital signal processing for radar), it would be a decent recon vehicle.

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1 hour ago, heretic88 said:

 

Nice photos! Thanks!

 

How many BRM-1Ks are in service? Are there any plans to modernize them? With some upgrades (thermal sight, digital signal processing for radar), it would be a decent recon vehicle.

 

22 BRM-1K and 16 BPsV. And all of them are currently modernized by WZM from Poznan - at least 5 vehicles are after that. 

 

The modernized version received:

- new optoelectronic head ZIG-T-2R

- SR HAWK (V)RE battlefield surveillance radar

- IR binoculars JIM LR

- Radmor RRC-9311 AP, AN/PRC-150(C), AN/PRC-117G and AN/PRC-152A radios

- Honeywell TALIN 5000

- MIMIC mine detector

- AP4C and DPO NBC detectors

- SSP-1 OBRA-3 LWR

- Berberys-C multispectral camouflage

- new passive night-vision vehicle devices

 

Spoiler


DSC06894-e1504662212415-1140x641.jpg

 

 

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Ho ho ho Merry x-mas

 

T-72M1 durability and relability

 

All based on "CONSIDERATION OF WEAPON SYSTEMS AVAILABILITY IN EARLY OPERATION PhASE"

Analiza przebiegu wprowadzania elementów systemu uzbrojenia do eksploatacji wykona-


no na przykładzie czołgu PT-91 Twardy. Zebrano informacje eksploatacyjne z okresu 3 lat i 2
miesięcy w warunkach garnizonowych dla 144 czołgów użytkowanych do szkolenia żołnierzy.

Translate: PT-91 Twardy tank, during 3 yers and 2 months for 144 tanks.

 

W okresie obserwacji (1174 dni) czołgi uszkodziły się łącznie 510 razy ze średnim czasem


napraw 27 dni. Zmienność uszkadzalności mieściła się między 1 a 14 uszkodzeniami, ze średnią
liczbą uszkodzeń ponad 3 uszkodzenia przypadające na jeden obiekt.
Uszkodzenia były zgłaszane jako uszkodzenia gwarancyjne i uznano reklamacje dotyczące
364 uszkodzeń, skąd można wnioskować, że ok. 71% uszkodzeń było uszkodzeniami wczesnymi
pochodzącymi z fazy produkcyjnej, a pozostałe miały inne podłoże niż błędy procesu produkcyj-
nego

 

During trials period (1174 days) we had 510 PT-91 falitures whit avarage time to repair 27 days.  Avarage faliture ratio was 3 per tank but during trials it was between 1 to 14 for eacht tank.

Important: falitures under factory warranty  was in number ca 364 so up to 71%. All was procedure due to factory production. 

Translation from english for normal users here: up to 71% falitures was cased by non-existin quality control in Bumar-łabędy and fucked up production process.

 

Summary in one table:

JNNUjeb.jpg

 

And compare  old Leopard 2A4 and PT-91:

(black - Leopard2A4 white - PT-91)

 

9jYPPn6.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Merry Christmas everyone!

 

Regarding polish T-72 reliability... Was there any difference between domestic and export models? Just asking this because according to old hungarian tankists, there were problems with polish built tanks. One example, a hungarian colonel's memoirs:

 

"A szovjet gyártmányú T-72-esekkel elmentünk több mint kétezer km-t, mire elkezdtek beégni a porlasztócsúcsok, 3-4 ezer km után pedig a turbófeltöltő csapágyai kibuktak a 25 ezres fordulattól. Utána elhasználódtak a bolygóműves kihajtás átömlő furatai, melyek a sok tengelykapcsolót meg egyebeket működtetik. Szóval összességében megbízhatóak voltak. Viszont a lengyel gyártmányú T-72-esek, melyekkel Tatán a negyedik zászlóaljam volt felszerelve, pocsék módon voltak szerelve, 50 kilométert sem mentek el, ha a gyári szerelőbrigád nem végzett rajtuk javítást."

....

"Használtunk csehszlovák gyártmányú T-72-ket is. Végszerelésükben lényegesen jobbak voltak, mint a lengyelek, de gyengébb minőségűek, mint az eredeti szovjet. A csehszlovák kocsik ugyanis hibridek voltak - az előmelegítő román, az üzemanyagtartály magyar, a Gödöllői Gépgyárból, az optika keletnémet, Jena-Zeiss, a motor lengyel."

 

Translation:

Soviet built T-72s ran more than 2000km, when the injector heads began to seize, after 3-4 thousand kilometers the bearings of the turbocharger (obviously not turbo - my correction) began to fail due to 25.000 rpm. Later, the planetary transmission's (oil) outlets began to wear out, which controlled the clutches and other devices. All in all, they were reliable. On the other hand, the polish built T-72s, my 4th battalion on Tata was equipped with,  were terribly badly built, they didnt even ran 50 kilometres unless the factory's mechanics didnt perform repairs on them.

...

"We used czechslovak built T-72s too. They were remarkably better built than polish, but still weaker than the original soviet. Czechslovak tanks were hybrids - pre heater romanian, fuel tanks hungarian from Gödöllő Machine Factory, optics east german, Jena-Zeiss, engine polish."

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On 3/18/2018 at 9:59 PM, Andrei_bt said:

ERA is another product.

 

> necroposting

CAWA is not ERA, it's classic non-metallic armor which was created for whole T-72 family. 

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Quote

 

During trials period (1174 days) we had 510 PT-91 falitures whit avarage time to repair 27 days.  Avarage faliture ratio was 3 per tank but during trials it was between 1 to 14 for eacht tank.

Important: falitures under factory warranty  was in number ca 364 so up to 71%. All was procedure due to factory production. 

Translation from english for normal users here: up to 71% falitures was cased by non-existin quality control in Bumar-łabędy and fucked up production process.

 

 

If so, maybe it's a problem of T-72M manafacture (upgrede) in Poland?

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18 hours ago, heretic88 said:

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

Regarding polish T-72 reliability... Was there any difference between domestic and export models? Just asking this because according to old hungarian tankists, there were problems with polish built tanks. One example, a hungarian colonel's memoirs:

 

Translation:

Soviet built T-72s ran more than 2000km, when the injector heads began to seize, after 3-4 thousand kilometers the bearings of the turbocharger (obviously not turbo - my correction) began to fail due to 25.000 rpm. Later, the planetary transmission's (oil) outlets began to wear out, which controlled the clutches and other devices. All in all, they were reliable. On the other hand, the polish built T-72s, my 4th battalion on Tata was equipped with,  were terribly badly built, they didnt even ran 50 kilometres unless the factory's mechanics didnt perform repairs on them.

...

"We used czechslovak built T-72s too. They were remarkably better built than polish, but still weaker than the original soviet. Czechslovak tanks were hybrids - pre heater romanian, fuel tanks hungarian from Gödöllő Machine Factory, optics east german, Jena-Zeiss, engine polish."

 

Well hard to wirte for patryotism resons but indeed - polish made T-72M1 alway was theriblle quality. Polish Army in 80's had the same problem - soviet made T-72M1 was quite OK, polish ones - Jusus fuckin Christ!  - like in pdf linked in my previous post. All is depend on non-existinq quality controll in Bumar-Labędy. And big hurry whit running up T-72M1 production in Poland.

 

BTW - funny quiz for you guys - how many producktion lines T-72M1 was in socjalyst Poland? :)

And which components where banned by Soviets for productioon in Poland?

:)

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Well, not just T-72s... We had similar experiences with T-55s too. On the other hand, polish built T-34s were excellent, probably the best...

We usually sent air defense stuff (ZSU-23-4, 2K12 Kub, 2K11 Krug, etc) for capital repair to poland, and the quality of maintenance works was always excellent. Strange that Bumar Labedy was an exception,  when other polish manufacturing/maintenance plants were capable of first class work...

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The photos of the Leopard 2 PL from Valryon show that the chassis is still kept at the Leopard 2 A4 configuration. That add-on armour on the turret looks to be more for all-around protection against RPG and not so much against frontal HEAT protection. The total weight of that vehicle would be interesting to know. Has anybody some figures?

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@Gun Ready 2PL should weigh around 59 tons. Can't go beyond 60t because you need to reinforce the suspension. And this is where it gets expensive. Also armor inserts probably won't be replaced(because of the weight limitation) so sadly overall protection is not going to be that great. 

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@Valryon  with your estimation the add-on armour of the 2PL is just 4 tons as the 2A4 is 55 tons. So the Hungarian Army did the better choice with the 2A7+ having protection as the 2A5 at the turret, frontal protection at the chassis as the Danish 2A5 and mine protection. All this with less than 64 tons. Of course this is a much more expensive solution and can be done only by the OEM in a new built tank but is best for the threat of today and tomorrow! Congratulations to the Magyars.

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24 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

Hungarian Army did the better choice with the 2A7+ having protection as the 2A5 at the turret, frontal protection at the chassis as the Danish 2A5 and mine protection. All this with less than 64 tons. Of course this is a much more expensive solution and can be done only by the OEM in a new built tank but is best for the threat of today and tomorrow! Congratulations to the Magyars.

Yes, we'll pay for this with 400 hours of overtime :D 

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