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4 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

The photos of the Leopard 2 PL from Valryon show that the chassis is still kept at the Leopard 2 A4 configuration. That add-on armour on the turret looks to be more for all-around protection against RPG and not so much against frontal HEAT protection. The total weight of that vehicle would be interesting to know. Has anybody some figures?

 

under 60,5t combat weight so ammo, crew, fuel itp

 

About armour:

jKyaX8D.jpg

 

AMAP is very very good, as I wrote - the problem is "weak" (vs KE) old main armour 2A4. 

AMAP is of course not wundersondenpanzerung mady by elfs  - it typical multi layered  NxRA armour and thin ceramis-steel to protect NxRA again small arms and spalls fire. 

And it's seems to be indeed better solutions then "wedge" NERA armour from Leopard 2A5.

Polish reqirments for 2PL where simple - stop Cornet and 3BM59/60. As I know nobody is anoying about first (CE) protection ;-) The problem is whit KE couse to weak (circa 350mm RHA) old main armour -and of course AMAP will not double this protection couse it's to light armour. But definetly 2PL is higly resistant vs old Mango, Vant, and old Swieniec - so AMAP give a lot but propably not enought against 3BM59/60 on typical Polisg fight distance (800m) whit old main armour.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

As far as I understood the integrated modules had not be changed due to lack of money! Correct?

There has been some changes in the L2PL deal so I'm still dreaming about getting "D" armor package.

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51 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

As far as I understood the integrated modules had not be changed due to lack of money! Correct?

 

Making it very very (to!) simple - yes.

But whole think is mucht complicated - having some  budget and 248 Leo-2 Poland will try to build it's own system of suply chain for Leopard 2. 

In theory mones for 2PL will be enought to replace main armour and improve suspension -  even whit changing suspension points in hull lower part.

But including buliding domestic poland abilities to service and suplly chain for polish leopard 2 - there was not enought money to support sevral military industry factories and replaced main armour in  2PL.

 

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On 12/29/2018 at 1:24 PM, Gun Ready said:

The photos of the Leopard 2 PL from Valryon show that the chassis is still kept at the Leopard 2 A4 configuration. That add-on armour on the turret looks to be more for all-around protection against RPG and not so much against frontal HEAT protection. The total weight of that vehicle would be interesting to know. Has anybody some figures? 

 

The modular Evolution armor package from IBD Deisenroth is designed to provide a similar level of frontal protection as the armor arrays used on the Leopard 2A5/2A6/2A7, while also including add-on armor on the sides of turret and hull, an additional module for the hull front, a mine protection plate and a layer of lightweight armor for the roof.

 

The whole upgrade package was designed to stay within a weight of 60 metric tons, when all modules are adopted but nothing else is changed with the tank. That means it offers a cheap upgrade path for even the oldest Leopard 2 tanks without the need for modifying the suspension. The Polish army wanted more changes for the Leopard 2PL (like for example adding an APU), so certain armor elements had to be dropped in favor of staying within the weight limit.

 

There are different configurations of the Evolution package (based on photographs of various prototypes and series production versions), so it is hard to make any definitive statements about how much each armor modules weighs and what level of protection it provides. Some versions include composite armor at the turret bustles, others have slat armor covering the complete rear section of turret and hull, while a third version lacks any sort of armor at the bustle section. Some versions have a flat & box-shaped turret front (like the Leopard 2SG and the proposed variant for Indonesia), while others have a slightly sloped & egdy turret front (Leopard 2PL, series production variant for Indonesia). An explanation could be that the former variant might lack some parts of the frontal armor array.

 

According to marketing material from IBD Deisenroth, the frontal arc of the tank is protected against current 120 and 125 mm APFSDS rounds and large caliber ATGMs without specifying any range or types. Rheinmetall stated in different interviews/advertorials, that the Leopard 2PL's turret would provide a higher level of protection than the Leopard 2A5's turret or the same protection as the Leopard 2A7's turret. Again no statements were made about range, threats and other conditions.

 

Spoiler

Panzerung+AMAP+gegen+RPG.png

 

The side armor modules for the sideskirts have resists penetration by the PG-7VLT (Bulgarian tandem-warhead ammunition for the RPG-7 with 550-600 mm penetration) in tests. A similar shaped armor module with large empty space and a steel plate (claimed to simulate the side hull armor of an unspecified tank) managed to resist penetration by a German-made tandem warhead with 800 mm penetration (simulating the PG-7VR warhead for the RPG-7). Given that the turret add-on armor is thicker (both at the front and sides) than the hull's side armor modules, one could expect a comparable level of protection, unless the armor optimizitations against APFSDS rounds had negative effects on it.

 

 

It is worth noting that AMAP is extremely weight-efficient (if Rheinmetall's marketing claims are correct, the Leopard 2 Evolution has a higher protection level than the Stridsvagn 122B with mine protection kit, while weighing some 4-6 metric tons less - but who knows, marketing people have a tendency to exaggerate), but only because it lowered volume efficiency, is rather expensive and - being a lightweight composite armor - has likely a limited multi-hit capability, which might have been a problem in certain tests based on statements from other forum members.

 

On 12/29/2018 at 4:31 PM, Gun Ready said:

  with your estimation the add-on armour of the 2PL is just 4 tons as the 2A4 is 55 tons. So the Hungarian Army did the better choice with the 2A7+ having protection as the 2A5 at the turret, frontal protection at the chassis as the Danish 2A5 and mine protection. All this with less than 64 tons. Of course this is a much more expensive solution and can be done only by the OEM in a new built tank but is best for the threat of today and tomorrow! Congratulations to the Magyars.

 

The Leopard 2A7+ weighs a lot more than 64 metric tons. The first batch of German Leopard 2A7s has a combat weight of 63.9 metric tons - without the hull add-on modules and without the enhanced roof protection, that all newly built Leopard 2s feature. The weight of these components can be roughly estimated by comparing the Swedish Stridsvagn 122 (62.5 metric tons), which features both these components, to the German (nowadays Polish) Leopard 2A5 at 59.5 metric tons. The Hungarian Leopard 2A7+ likely will weigh 67 metric tons, unless the weight of the armor has been reduced by either modifying its composition or by excluding it from the Hungarian variant.

 

On 12/30/2018 at 12:01 AM, Lord_James said:

Does the 2A6/7 have AMAP+D tech or is it just NERA wedge+D tech like the 2A5? 

 

The Leopard 2A6 of Germany seems to feature turret armor in "D" technology and hull armor in either "C" or "D" technology (depending on what armor array was mounted on each specific converted tank). Export customers might have purchased tanks with newer armor packages (unless KMW decided to not continue improving the armor technology and kept selling 1990s armor to Spain and Greece - the latter country received its first series production 2A6 tank in 2006 or 11 years after Germany adopted the Leopard 2A5). According to Jane's IHS, the Leopard 2A7 features a new generation of passive armor, rumors/speculations say that this would be called "E" or "F" technology.

 

The wedge armor of the Leopard 2 is actually made by the same company as AMAP and even called AMAP in some of their more recent brochures. Originally it was called MEXAS-H ("H" for heavy), but when MEXAS was replaced by AMAP, a lot of old products were renamed. So it is an older version of AMAP (unless IBD has decided to rename all AMAP products as part of their new ProTech and NanoTech product lines).

 

The Swedish office of IBD Deisenroth actually has created a demonstrator for the Swedish army, which replaces the old add-on modules with newer ones; this frees up weight while staying at the same protection level, so that more weight can be invested in side armor against RPGs and in a mine protection kit. It has been called the Stridsvagn 122B Evolution.

Spoiler

143A0E4A514DF554196E94

2012-05-10%20Ravlunda%20173web.jpg

 

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@SH_MM  It seem that you believe that IBD Deisenroth has the only and best armour solutions for Leopard 2 tanks! One may even think you are sponsored by this company to promote their solutions. But let me give some statements:

Rumours in the protection community are saying that IBD reaches the end of the line as Ulf Deisenroth, the brilliant armour developer, passed by in 2015 and his wife and his two daughters want to sell the company (what they partly did with Chempro and ADS to Rheinmetall).

Yes, he did great work for Leopard 2 protection but that's over since the Swedish MBT122 program. The following developments like for Singapore, Evolution, Revolution, Indonesia and Poland had been "poor man" solutions mainly for Rheinmetall and retrofits with a lot of compromises! No development was performed with KMW any more and there might be a reason: KMW developers prooved own protection kits like for A4M Canada, their bridge layer and the AEV 2 Canada for FFG. So, the time of MEXAS and AMAP solutions are definitely gone for new Leopard 2 designs.

The Swedish IBD office does not exist any more and the former employees are spread away, FYI.

 

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15 hours ago, SH_MM said:

The side armor modules for the sideskirts have resists penetration by the PG-7VLT (Bulgarian tandem-warhead ammunition for the RPG-7 with 550-600 mm penetration) in tests. A similar shaped armor module with large empty space and a steel plate (claimed to simulate the side hull armor of an unspecified tank) managed to resist penetration by a German-made tandem warhead with 800 mm penetration (simulating the PG-7VR warhead for the RPG-7). Given that the turret add-on armor is thicker (both at the front and sides) than the hull's side armor modules, one could expect a comparable level of protection, unless the armor optimizitations against APFSDS rounds had negative effects on it.

What is this brand of armor? It can be the same with this?:

Spoiler

BCNR_Gd8WOI.jpg
AGNofwQiNDI.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Gun Ready said:

It seem that you believe that IBD Deisenroth has the only and best armour solutions for Leopard 2 tanks! One may even think you are sponsored by this company to promote their solutions. But let me give some statements:

Rumours in the protection community are saying that IBD reaches the end of the line as Ulf Deisenroth, the brilliant armour developer, passed by in 2015 and his wife and his two daughters want to sell the company (what they partly did with Chempro and ADS to Rheinmetall).

Yes, he did great work for Leopard 2 protection but that's over since the Swedish MBT122 program. The following developments like for Singapore, Evolution, Revolution, Indonesia and Poland had been "poor man" solutions mainly for Rheinmetall and retrofits with a lot of compromises!

 

The Evolution package is not the "only and best" solution; but there are only very few upgrade options and it is among the best. IBD Deisenroth is a large company, the market leader in composite armor solutions in Germany; it is not a company depending on a single product or man to be succesful. Just last years they revealed winning a contract for a new armor kit for the Boxer, their new Smart ProTech armor, that a new NERA kit for the Puma had been qualified and that they started working on turret designs for the MGCS. The company also has started to offer protection analysis (as computer simulation aswell as ballistic tests) for external costumers, recently the armor for Czech Gerlach from Zetor Engineering was tested by IBD Deisenroth. The company has sold tens of thousands of armor kits and keeps making new ones. As for the changes in company lead; that is hardly relevant. It really doesn't matter if a man or his daughters are leading the company or wether it got sold to Rheinmetall (or any other bidder) is irrelevant, tha doesn't affect the performance. Wether Rheinmetall, IBD Deisenroth or any other name is written on the armor doesn't matter.

 

Also note that I specifically mentioned that these are claims made by the manufacturer and that one always should be careful with marketing claims.

 

The reason why the armor provides such a high level of protection per weight, is that it trades higher weight-efficiency for larger volume and a lower multi-hit capability. Tests with the same armor array in the ISL during the late 1970s showed that by increasing the space between certain layers, a 15% increase in protection could be achieved (or at the same protection level, armor weight could be reduced to ~86%) - that is because NERA, NxRA and anti-KE armor arrays designed to shatter the projectile or induce yaw to it, become more efficient when spaced further away. That is why single NERA layers in scientific papers (with usually more than 1,000 mm empty space behind them) can reduce the penetration of shaped charge warheads by massive amounts, leading to a mass efficiency of sometimes more than 20, while actual armor (like Chobham) had a mass efficiency between 2 and 4 against shaped charges. The added space, new materials and better optimizations allow AMAP-SC allows to reach a mass efficiency of 8 to 10. The Leopard 2A5's wedge armor also relies on the same principles as the AMAP add-on modules.

 

Last but not least you are looking two decades in technological advancements.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gun Ready said:

No development was performed with KMW any more and there might be a reason: KMW developers prooved own protection kits like for A4M Canada, their bridge layer and the AEV 2 Canada for FFG. So, the time of MEXAS and AMAP solutions are definitely gone for new Leopard 2 designs.

 

KMW is not developing its own special armor. The Bergepanzer 2 (locally called Taurus) of Canada is fitted with MEXAS, these kits were already purchased during KFOR. The Leguan bridge-layer isn't sold with add-on armor by KMW, it uses a standard Leopard 2 hull. The Leopard 2A7V for the German army will receive add-on armor made by IBD's Greek office (as the hulls are remanufactured there), same happened with the Leopard 2A7+ hulls for Qatar. All current products of KMW rely on armor made by other companies, often GEKE/RUAG or IBD, but sometimes other suppliers aswell. KMW just never directly reveal swho makes the armor.

 

1 hour ago, Karamazov said:

What is this brand of armor?

 

This is AMAP-SC, a type of NERA or NxRA.

 

1 hour ago, Karamazov said:

BCNR_Gd8WOI.jpg

 

This is SidePRO-RPG armor from RUAG, it is used on the Leopard 2 MLU at the rear sections of the turret (turret bustle). It is extremly weight-efficient (not as good as slat armor, but has a higher working probability) and can include an optional layer of perforated armor against 14.5 mm AP rounds (when fitted to light vehicles like the M113). It doesn't work against RPGs and ATGMs with long stand-off probes or tandem warheads (i.e. it would fail to protect against the PG-7VLT).

 

xvniVYT.png

 

1 hour ago, Karamazov said:

 

This actually is not the same armor as previously, but SidePRO-ATR; it is also NERA/NxRA and RUAG's competitor to AMAP-SC & AMAP-B. RUAG sells the armor of GEKE Schutztechnik, a German company partially owned by it. GEKE/RUAG provide certain armor systems for the Leopard 2, Puma and Boxer.

 

DAKmiKr.png

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1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

KMW is not developing its own special armor. The Bergepanzer 2 (locally called Taurus) of Canada is fitted with MEXAS, these kits were already purchased during KFOR. 

Who told you that KMW is not developing its own special armour. This statement is pure speculation. Even if they are not doing high promotion (to whom should they do it unless to their potential customers) they have it in their companies slogan: "protects your mission". And believe me, the Leopard 2 A4M CAN protection comes solely from KMW and not any part at all was from your hotly favoured company IBD.

 

leopard_2a4m_can_l5.jpg

 

 

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Same with the AEV 2 Canada (armoured engineer vehicle Wiesent 2 not Bergepanzer 2!). Also this attached armour was developed, qualified and manufactured from KMW! Ask FFG whether one part is from IBD.

 

 

 

 

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