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The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.


Khand-e

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Regarding the Bang system:

 

The problems inherent to trapping gas at the muzzle and redirecting it to cycle a gun are very well documented in the case of Bang's rifle and the gas trap Garand. However the Germans actually ran with it for a while with the G41 rifles. Does anyone have any documents or ordnance reports from the testing of the G41(W) or G41(M)s?

I ask because this past weekend I went and shot the hell out of a G41(w) with 200+ rounds of surplus uber-corrosive ammo and there were no problems, issues, or hangups. It is also worth noting that the the particular G41 is not in great shape and the rear of the receiver has even been shot (as in it caught a bullet).

Only thing that noticeably sucked was taking the nose cone off for cleaning (since I don't have the appropriate tool), but other than that I just ran some hot water down the bore, doused the piston/sleeve, and the outside of the barrel that is normally encapsulated by the trap. I hypothesized that when well maintained the system would be reliable (considering a soldier's ammunition loadout would have been 70 rounds), but am curious as to what Ordnance discovered in their testing.

 

My biggest gripe is the front sight mounted on the piston sleeve (that obviously gets very, very hot), as the rifle's POI noticeably shifted as it heated up.

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Here is the only document I can find, and it is a simple "here's a new gun we found":

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/german-semiautomatic-rifle.html

 

I also found a report that Hitler's Garands sources quite a bit (in the excepts I can find), but it is not accessible online and I had to request it:

https://research.archives.gov/id/574018

 

Edit: An employee from the archives will contact me regarding my request after a short 3 week time period. Efficient!

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Regarding the Bang system:

 

The problems inherent to trapping gas at the muzzle and redirecting it to cycle a gun are very well documented in the case of Bang's rifle and the gas trap Garand. However the Germans actually ran with it for a while with the G41 rifles. Does anyone have any documents or ordnance reports from the testing of the G41(W) or G41(M)s?

I ask because this past weekend I went and shot the hell out of a G41(w) with 200+ rounds of surplus uber-corrosive ammo and there were no problems, issues, or hangups. It is also worth noting that the the particular G41 is not in great shape and the rear of the receiver has even been shot (as in it caught a bullet).

Only thing that noticeably sucked was taking the nose cone off for cleaning (since I don't have the appropriate tool), but other than that I just ran some hot water down the bore, doused the piston/sleeve, and the outside of the barrel that is normally encapsulated by the trap. I hypothesized that when well maintained the system would be reliable (considering a soldier's ammunition loadout would have been 70 rounds), but am curious as to what Ordnance discovered in their testing.

 

My biggest gripe is the front sight mounted on the piston sleeve (that obviously gets very, very hot), as the rifle's POI noticeably shifted as it heated up.

 

OK, so pedantics first: "Bang" and "gas trap" are two different things. Bang-type rifles have a forward moving muzzle cap that pulls an articulated segment to give a push to the action. They do utilize a gas trap, but that's like saying "short stroke piston" and meaning "gas operated".

With that out of the way, I think gas traps have gotten bad raps. The system appears to work fine, from all the actual evidence I've seen (and ignoring early guns that didn't work because no early selfloaders worked well), but it seems to have problems with extreme fouling. Since gas is being tapped at very low pressure, the guns will be sensitive to fouling buildup and ammunition (just like a gas port M1, in fact).

Not a problem for a precision rifle given to a handpicked soldier given extra training, IF the hypothetical precision benefits play out; I'm not sure they will.

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I had seen similar devices for vehicles.  Figures that they would shrink down to infantry size eventually.

 

An unusual implementation of this technology was the shooting range the US Army used for the ACR program:

 

 

Sound-sensitive tubes that could localize bullet paths were used to replace conventional paper targets.

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Today I learned that the Japanese Navy's Type 4/Type 5 Garand didn't use the same 7.7mm rimless ammunition as the Army's Type 99 bolt action rifle, but a completely new rimless pattern of ammunition.

That makes six different standard calibers used by the Japanese Empire during World War II, four of them being nigh-identical-but-not-interchangeable 7.7mms!

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Two interesting bits on carrying weapons "in plain sight":

fruit knife carry

 

plastic bag carry

 

I found the plastic bag article in particular helpful because it points out that criminals carry weapons this way sometimes. Also, it suggests that a good idea might be to stuff some blue Wal Mart bags in your car along with a nice sturdy stainless revolver or compact semiauto, for when you need to carry a gun at the ready in a highly dangerous area.

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Two interesting bits on carrying weapons "in plain sight":

fruit knife carry

 

plastic bag carry

 

I found the plastic bag article in particular helpful because it points out that criminals carry weapons this way sometimes. Also, it suggests that a good idea might be to stuff some blue Wal Mart bags in your car along with a nice sturdy stainless revolver or compact semiauto, for when you need to carry a gun at the ready in a highly dangerous area.

 

It's a variant of the ol' gun in a newspaper trick. Of course now, carrying a newspaper will make you stand out in a crowd.

 

I suppose for a temporary solution, this might work but I don't see how this is viable for any extended length of time. Plastic bags are finicky and tear. Carrying something as heavy as a firearm by the handles of a "t shirt" plastic bag (which is what those bags are called) is uncomfortable for extended periods of time since the handles will eventually cut into your hand and cause you to lose circulation. Or, as the guy is showing it, carrying the bag like that is unnatural looking. Just like a purse, the bag can be dropped, misplaced or taken from you. 

 

Finally, if there is the issue of "brandishing a weapon" should you run into law enforcement.

 

"What's in the bag?" 

 

Unless you're Mattie Ross from True Grit, you shouldn't carry your gun in a bag.

 

 

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Also, the original scene in True Grit is so much better than the remake. So, so much better. And I liked the remake.

 

I don't dislike the remake. I just don't see why it was needed. I guess, supposedly, it is closer to the book and was filmed in more realistic territory since the 1969 version has us believing that the scenic majesty of the Colorado Rockies is somehow Oklahoma. And an important character in the remake lives instead of dies and the John Wayne version has a happy ending.

 

On the other hand, the actors in the remake seem to be doing their best to do impersonations of the troupe of character actors who are always seen in John Wayne movies. And they just don't quite get the natural ease of Strother Martin (the horse seller) Robert Duvall (Lucky Ned Pepper) or Jeff Corey (Tom Chaney).

 

Matt Damon probably played the part of LeBoeuf, the bumbling Texas Ranger, better than Glen Campbell. But only just, considering that Damon is an Oscar winning actor and Campbell was a country music singer who was only chosen so they could cross promote the movie with an album and who wasn't really an actor at all.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Grit_(soundtrack)

 

And I love me some Jeff Bridges. But Rooster Cogburn is always gonna be John Wayne.

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I don't think anyone was advocating doing that on the regular, but rather that it's a decent way to improvise fully concealing a firearm.

 

I actually like the remake better overall though, and that's saying alot, I usually hate remakes.

 

Though, It does feel kind of strange that despite how well Jeff Bridges played the lead role, and just the year prior he won the academy award for best actor for playing an out of his prime country music star with severe life and family issues, he's probably going to forever be remembered as "The Dude". (Not that it's a bad film to be remembered by as The Big Lewbowski is simply timeless, I just find it strange that his more serious roles were his more critically acclaimed ones.)

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http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1184&p=17#p740526

 

Otvaga member posted his impressions of Vykhlop.

 

    As 99.9% of Zlobin's designs - something beyond good and evil.

   Our "neighbors" have it [Vykhlop] in their arsenal (like several ASh-12s). On the question of the use in the real world they nervously hiccup frantically, twirl his fingers to his temple. Periodically dragged out to the shooting range. Usually, when someone comes over for a visit and want to amuse. Next few personal experiences...

 

   Stamping in the worst sense of the word. Execution of it is like bed-making company, somewhere in 1942, making PPShs for mobilization. Did not wanted to shoot from bipods immediately. Thats why used bags. Those bags were teared by sharp edges and burrs of lower part of gun (supressor and bipods).

 

Vykhlop-001.jpg

 

 

  By the way, the body of supressor is made out of composite, made from pipe of used RPG-26...   

 

Vykhlop-002.jpg

 

Vykhlop-003.jpg

 

 

   Magazine bottom sometimes "drives off the rails"

 

Vykhlop-004.jpg

 

Ammunition:

Vykhlop-005.jpg

 

Vykhlop-006.jpg

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