The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[D.E. Watters]

FWIW:  Dan Coonan played with a rimless .41 Magnum as it would fit the .357 Magnum's breechface without modification.  However, none of these hit the market.  Lee Jurras came up with the .41 JMP wildcat for the original Auto Mag, but it was merely a necked down .44 AMP.

[Khand-e]

One pre note I forgot.

 

3. Yes, it technically is possible to kill someone through body armor if it doesn't penetrate through an effect called pitting which is where the round won't penetrate but cause a pit in the armor deep enough to cause internal injuries, but 1. you're still far more likely to survive this then a full penetration and 2. It turns out what most of these "knock down through body armor!" forget to remember is that all body armor sold on the market is tested for this against the rounds they're rated to even be sold, memory serve me, anything that causes more then 44mm of pitting on impact (the standards may have changed since then) on a non penetration is rejected outright, most modern body armor will get like half of this or less against rounds they're rated for or slightly above, trying to kill or severely wound someone with a vastly underpowered round (reminder, IIIA is rated to stop .44 Magnum and 00 plated buckshot out of a 12 gauge, .50 GI is absolutely nothing compared to that, even level II is rated to stop .357 Magnum at significantly higher velocities, still shits on .50 GI) "BECAUSE IT'S BIG AND HEAVY" through pitting is still a retarded idea and always will be.

 

Now then, part 2: electric "I'm going to slit my wrists reading this shit any longer" boogaloo.

 

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The .50 GI round was designed from the ground up specifically for the Guncrafter’s Model No.1 pistol. It’s a very strong, thick-walled cartridge which when loaded is approximately the same overall length as a standard .45ACP round. To me, they look like .45’s that rode the short bus to school. Due to the larger caliber, the cartridge operates at a relatively low pressure and has a long reloading life. The rounds can be purchased from Guncrafters at a reasonable cost as can all supplies for reloading purposes.

 

Something tells me the writer of this article (and the designers of the .50 GI while we're at it) are no strangers to riding the short bus, though assuming they went to school at all may be a stretch. Yes, the cartridge doesn't just operate at "lower pressures", (and the caliber of a cartridge has nothing to do with how high you can raise the chamber pressure to, fun advice.) it operates at a mind bendingly low PSI of 15,000 psi, this is actually the lowest PSI cartridge I can think of that isn't originally a black powder cartridge (and some rounds that even are formerly black powder cartridges can be loaded hotter.) This line also makes him sound like a shill, as that line is taken from Guncrafters own website that, to this day is still there, and I quote.

 

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The Guncrafter Industries 50GI cartridge was designed from the ground up specifically for our Model No.1 pistol. It is a very strong, (HAHAHAHA) thick-walled cartridge which when loaded is approximately the same OAL as a standard .45ACP round. Due to the larger caliber, the cartridge operates at relatively low pressure and has a long reloading life.

 

http://guncrafterindustries.com/50-gi-cartridge/

 

If this is such a thick walled cartridge, why load it to such dogshit PSI levels? Thick walled cartridges can handle higher PSI and have a longer reloading life anyway, fuck, I can legitimately be a better gun and ammo designer then Guncrafters and I've never even done it professionally.

 

I'd also like to point out that Guncrafters considers their round "versatile"..... at what?

 

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“The 50GI was intended primarily as a self-defense round, but is still very versatile and can be loaded to higher or lower levels if desired.”

 

and worse, they use the highly flawed TKO system to measure the "STOPPING POWER!" of their round, they even one up the author of this article in stupidity and not only claim their round has the same or better "stopping power" as .41 Remington Magnum, but even higher then .44 Magnum now!

 

 

 

This makes it so much easier for me, It not allows me to not only show where the author got his braindead thought process from earlier, but also allows me to destroy guncrafter's logic while showing just how bad the TKO system really is and why it's seen as a joke to so many. Pictures really are worth a thousand words.

 

Also, "reasonably priced" http://guncrafterindustries.com/product-category/ammo/

 

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The concept was to create a practical .50 caliber 1911 without unnecessary bulk and weight but with the benefits of increased knockdown power while still being completely controllable during rapid fire. The design of the M1 is such that recoil is controllable even with the more powerful round. The .50GI was intended primarily as a self-defense round but is still very versatile and can be loaded to higher or lower levels if desired. Guncrafter’s standard power factory round drives a 300-grain bullet at 700 to 725 fps, which translates into a 210 power factor. Felt recoil is comparable to a 230-grain .45ACP hardball factory round. The 275-grain bullet at 875 fps delivers even more serious stopping power while having felt recoil similar to a 10mm.

 

This is also a direct quote from the link I just posted, making the author go from misguided idiot to sounding like an outright shill really fast.

 

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Guncrafter has cornered the market in 1911-style .50’s. Not resting on their laurels, they’ve moved ahead and now have this outstanding Glock conversion kit.

 

Probably because they're the only one who makes 1911 "style" .50s (because calling them clones would just make them sound non innovative!) They've now gone ahead and took an otherwise good gun known as the Glock (Guncrafters patent pending, I mean, since they supposedly designed a gun around a cartridge, that means they invented the 1911A1 and Glock G21 right?) and made it significantly worse in every way possible with a conversion kit that makes it less appealing in every way possible!

 

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My testing tends to be as real world as I can make it. I don’t really mess around with bench rests mostly because I really don’t give a hoot about taking measurements and the like. I prefer to shoot the weapon as if I were defending my home, fast and furious. I stepped up to about the 7-yard line, which is about the length of some of the rooms and stairways in my home. I drew the weapon, got a rough sight picture, and started squeezing off rounds as fast as I could get the gun back on target.

 

Yeah, because fuck gathering data and conducting simple tests to give a fully accurate picture of a product, you should run around like a (more) spastic version of JumpIf Not Zero because you're TOO FUCKING TACTICAL for your own good.

 

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I won’t lie to you:

 

I don't believe you.

 

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it has a bit of a bite to it when it goes off. The harmonic resonance that passes through the gun is enough to give your trigger finger a little sting. It’s nothing you can’t handle, though. The end result on the target is something to behold, however.

 

Guns have recoil, who knew? Also, I bet it puts a hole or a DING in the target when it hits, fascinating! Something to behold! Like an Aurora up north, or a shitty article that makes you question your sanity on why the fuck someone is getting paid to write this shit and get published. (Also, you might want to look up what harmonic resonance actually is, unlike your gun, that actually would be "something to behold" on what it would do to your hands.)

 

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The 50 GI can really put a lot of punch on a subject. This round can tear into an assailant’s vehicle with incapacitating force to the engine block and cooling system, thus taking the vehicle out of commission quickly. Where I think this round would really prove useful is as a secondary weapon for a SWAT officer.

 

.......

 

Does he even know how tough the engine block of a car actually IS? even a newer aluminum one would probably laugh this round off, an all steel one, mainly from a truck or something would not be damaged at all by such fire. man, if only someone has tested just how much abuse an old rusted engine block that isn't even up to shape can take.

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-54-busting-an-engine-block/

 

.....Oh.

 

Spoilers,  He shoots at an old 70's Era Dodge pickup truck engine block that's very rusted and in poor shape, yet despite this,.357 magnum does literally nothing, .44 JHP barely leaves a dimple in the thinnest part, a 12 gauge slug from an 870 can break through the outside housing but didn't penetrate the cylinder walls, 5.56x45mm M193 and M855 from an M16's 20" barrel penetrated the outside housing but not the cylinder wall, 30-06 Surplus ball penetrated the outside housing but not the cylinder wall....what finally DID penetrate the housing and cylinder wall? .30-06 M2 Black tip from a Garand. Nevermind having to rely on pitting to "break someone's sternum through body armor", if .50 GI was actually strong enough to punch though and damage said engine block so badly that it could reliably dead stop a car or truck, you wouldn't need to worry about pitting, it would slice though any soft body armor and most hardened plates like butter. yet it can't even do that.

 

....?

 

Man, we need to modify the TKO factor to take hardened material penetration into account, because people need to be informed that .50 GI is just as good as .30-06 steel core AP at penetration against steel! (despite the fact it will only "leave dings" on metallic targets.)

 

As for his second part, 1. what SWAT officer in his right mind would ever use a .50 GI chambered gun? and 2. Even if you found one of these mystical unicorns in the wild, what would have to be going through his mind to be thinking "Oh, a dangerous assailant is fleeing in a vehicle, should I A. Shoot at the doors and windows at the target himself, B. try to take out the engine block with my actual rifle or shotgun, which might actually do something? or C. "Oh shit, a dangerous assailant is fleeing, I better drop my rifle or shotgun and try to stop his automobile by shooting at his engine compartment with my sidearm!"

 

I'll let you decide the best course of action here.

 

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The fact that it fits the G21 platform means that it has the potential for integration into the ranks of LE agencies that are already carrying the G21. And now with the G21 SF, which employs the G21 frame, I see no reason why this kit couldn’t be used by even smaller statured officers who have difficulty hanging onto the very-large-framed G21.

 

Yes, because Police agencies who are very budget concerned will love the idea of buying conversion kits for their guns to a gimmick round that makes said gun worse in every was possible afterwards and If anything, if an officer really wants a high caliber handgun that's not a Glock, they're probably just going to get a 1911A1 or something which are really common, but I guess I could be wrong, we'll have to wait 8 years and see I guess.

 

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As a SWAT operator the only reason that you may have to go to your secondary weapon is failure of your carbine, or close in fighting where a long gun isn’t a good idea to be poking around corners with.  Either way stopping power is what you’re looking for here, right?

 

By drawing a weapon which has terrible ammunition capacity and would technically have less "STOPPING POWER!" then 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP, all of which are vastly more common gun and ammo wise?

 

SWAT officers will never use this retarded shit, get over it.

 

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The Guncrafter’s Glock 21 Conversion Unit is a well-put-together system that bares consideration for the shooting enthusiast

 

"well-put-together"

 

 

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and LEO. With the proven stopping power of the massive 275/300-grain projectiles it’s a fair bet that you’d come out on top in a gun fight.

 

Yes, because your shitty gimmick gun which puts out less actual firepower then your opponents weapon will make you magically come out on top in a firefight! Other factors in a fire fight? what are those?

And when has the "STOPPING POWER" of the .50 GI been proven exactly? Show me some citations on this.

 

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For the sportsman this is a round that needs to be explored. I do believe that this bullet might even be able to put a tough-skinned wild bore down in one hit.

 

This is shockingly dumb even for his standards, this is perhaps the WORST round you could ever use for any sort of hunting, even pest control. "Tough skinned wild "bore"? (Bore is the inside of a firearm barrel, Boar is a species of swine you imbecile.) Swine generally aren't that thick skinned, infact, sheep and pig are about the closest physiological matches to humans and used in ballistics tests for when you need the most accurate results possible (this is a massive pain the ass to do however and requires alot of paperwork to do professionally), Boars aren't much tougher then your garden variety pig or feral hog, If you can bring one down in one shot? Wow, good for you, so can about damn near any other caliber when placed right.

 

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It really is a versatile round and I’d love to see its power displayed in an SMG of some sort but, alas, I’m getting ahead of myself. I found the kit a pleasure to work.

 

I feel like I've heard this before... the versatile part and the "great SMG round" part.

 

Let me explain, in detail, why it's actually a terribly shitty SMG round just like it is a pistol round, or a round for anything.

 

Lets see what you look for in modern SMG design.

 

1. Obviously the force multiplier over a pistol of a fully automatic weapon with a stock (preferably) you can more comfortably use with 2 hands then a pistol, but why use .50 GI? .45 ACP is already argued as too heavy for an SMG. smaller calibers are much more common as they recoil less (very important for a fully automatic weapon) and you can fit the same amount of rounds in a smaller magazine using a round with a smaller total diameter, said magazines will also weigh less allowing you to carry more. You also preferably want to make an SMG as small as possible, this isn't WW2, SMGs are basically all but phased out in military use, falling in favor of Carbines/SBRs and PDWs which can do everything an SMG can do better, LEOs are trending the same way, why make an smg around a round that would make it even bigger, heavier, and stronger recoiling using a round with terrible ballistics thus making trying to sell it even LESS appealing?

 

2. You generally get an advantage running hotter loads in an SMG, as the increase in barrel length gives you higher velocities, the larger, heavier weapon with a stock and a handguard (preferably) will make controlling it easier, and in certain designs, using hotter ammunition will give you an increase in rate of fire, particularly true with shorter actions that means the returning gasses to operate the system have less distance to travel, (I sure hope you're using a gas operated SMG design and not a blowback dark ages one.) Here's the thing about barrel length and increased velocities however, not all are created equal, while there's more factors then this to how much velocity per length of barrel you'll get out of a cartridge, 2 of the big ones are 1. how big is the powder charge, second part of this question, how big is the powder charge relative to the size/weight of the round you're pushing? (really goddamn small in this case) and 2. what's the PSI? (15,000 PSI.... jesus christ I still can't believe someone actually made a smokeless powder round in the 21st century no less that low.) what does this mean? simple, it means that .50 GI will get damn near nothing from a longer barrel, it would actually even be easy to get negative results from one, also, speaking of hot rounds speeding up rate of fire, does 15,000 psi sound like something that's going to make a full auto action blaze? and yet, even with the lower rate of fire you'd get from running this over bog standard 9mm in the same weapon, the 9mm would probably still have less recoil and would certainly have better ballistics.

 

A .50 GI SMG is actually a painfully bad idea, and I sincerely hope no one even tries to invent one ever. God knows how much retarded shit such a thing would do to TV, Movies and Video Games everywhere.

 

Ok, I'm finally done with this shit, I guess I did 3 pre notes, I forgot my post note.

 

4. Why the hell am I doing this? mostly because I hate myself or something, but things like this are a big part of the reason why.

[Meplat]

Obviously, the low chamber pressures of the .50 GI is to allow it to function reliably post apocalypse, via the use of black powder and match-heads.

 

[Khand-e]

Obviously, the low chamber pressures of the .50 GI is to allow it to function reliably post apocalypse, via the use of black powder and match-heads.

 

 

Well, speaking of that and how terribly the .50 Gi will perform out of long barrels, for a mere 4,200 dollars, you too can own a long slide .50 GI for that extra 5 feet per second of Muzzle velocity!

 

That type of cash will be easy to loot in an apocalypse scenario anyway!

 

http://guncrafterindustries.com/model-no-4/

[Sturgeon]

You forgot that .50 GIs velocities are far too low to expand any of the bullets its loaded with, so far as I know. So in practice, it's less effective than a good expanding 9mm.

[Khand-e]

You forgot that .50 GIs velocities are far too low to expand any of the bullets its loaded with, so far as I know. So in practice, it's less effective than a good expanding 9mm.

 

But who needs that when the .50 GI is better then a .44 Magnum JHP according to the completely unflawed TKO metric?!

 

And can hit hard enough with a vest on to cause your sternum to split in half knocking you unconscious while somehow having enough penetration to punch through a steel engine block?!

[LostCosmonaut]

Before hibernating, the MP5 will consume thousands of extra calories per day to build up its fat reserves.

 

 

[Khand-e]

Still a smaller design then a proposed .50 GI SMG.

[Donward]

Anyway, I was going to shit on this one last night, but I found a window to actually sleep, but this article is painfully bad, like, as bad as you'd expect from anyway armchair commando website with tactical in their name. Le'ts begin were Oedipus left off.

 

Well start with the opening line of the article, which says alot in how bad it's going to be.

 

 

Do I really need to say anything on this one?

 

 

What?! did he just say someone had the idea to to chamber a gun in a cartridge that uses a projectile measuring 12.7mm in diameter? FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY! No one has ever thought of it before! well, maybe not as terribly as the designers of the .50 GI have thought of it before, but I'm not sure that's a title you want to be proud to have.

 

 

"Masterfully Engineered"

 

 

Also, as far as his perfection comment, if anything it shows just how good the Glock platform is in the sense it can use even the dumbest ideas like .50 GI and make them look merely mediocre instead of awful I guess.

 

 

Masterful Engineering, they can take what's in essence a blown out, shorter .45 ACP case with an even lower operating pressure (As in pitifully low, like 15,000ish PSI low) and the same rim diameter and actually make them into REAL AMMUNITION and not mere mock ups? Masterful engineering I say! Also, this "large cocktail-olive-sized rounds" comment should give you a good idea of where this is going. If not, you haven't been paying attention.

 

 

"More then just a really cool conversion piece" ....how exactly? in the sense that it magically gives your gun that regularly has the capacity of a double stack the magazine capacity of a Single stack 1911A1 or +1 with an extended baseplate? wouldn't that make it less the just a rather shitty conversion piece? I don't know, maybe I'm just not TACTICAL enough to understand.

 

 

Curb appeal in spades, which is why damn close to 8 years after this article was written, basically no one at all uses it!

 

Also, taking a weapon and chambering it for one of the worst cartridges designed in the modern age and going from a double stack to a single stack capacity = an improvement!

 

 

 

No, I'm still at the mental image of where I want to punch you in the face for actually writing that line and this article in general, how long should I wait? and you're terribly right about the Desert Eagle not being practical (this may be the only correct thing in this entire writeup), you just fail to lack the self awareness to see which other gun here isn't.

 

 

 

....What the fuck? if anything a polymer lower would increase recoil vs a steel or aluminum one as It's much lighter, if you don't know the actual upsides of using a polymer lower and why they're used, you have no business speaking on them.

 

 

This is literally the dumbest line of the entire article, as in, reading this makes me physically angry that someone got paid to honestly write this, where do I start?

 

1. why the fuck are you shooting steel targets at close range with TMJs and not frangibles? I guess that part about never shooting at hardened targets in the very first days of a gun safety class is just not tactical enough for him. Also, yes, the .50 GI is loaded with TMJs and not FMJs, which would make them even less likely to "fracture into so much dust" like those tiny .40 and .45 rounds that I would bet money were either frangible or at least FMJ that also traveled faster then the ever so blazing speed of 700 fps. (which would, once again, make it less likely to lose structural integrity, what, are we going to brag about how steel ball bearings out of a slingshot don't crumble into dust upon hitting something hard next?)

 

2. Who really cares how much it furrows the dirt around your targets? and you're telling me it caused DINGS? Holy fucking SHIT! seriously that's the most pointless statement you can possibly make.

 

3. "I would suspect that even if a home invader were wearing body armor this round would probably split his sternum and disrupt the heart’s rhythm enough to possibly cause unconsciousness" And judging by this statement, I would suspect you're borderline retarded and failed to learn what momentum is in school or actually know jack shit about body armor, I've written about this before on a similar case where someone said how pointless SCHV pistol/smg rounds like the 5.7x28mm are because "If I get hit with a .45, I'm dropping to the ground body armor or not!" which is patently false, the example I used was the north hollywood bank robbery/shootout where the 2 suspects were wearing full soft body armor, and considering the police didn't have rifles until much later in the incident, this allowed them to shrug off countless 9mm rounds that have about the same energy as .45 ACP and even shotgun blasts which are an order of magnitude stronger at that range then any of the rounds listed, it was the tiny poodle shooting 5.56mm chambered rifles they got from a local gun store that finally saved them because, unlike simply hitting their armor and doing nothing, they could fully penetrate it, shocking!

 

The idea that some absurdly low pressure, big dumb slow round like the .50 GI or similar rounds is going to stop someone in body armor rated to stop .44 Magnum rounds and 12 gauge plated buckshot (or even lead slugs) just because IT'S BIG AND HEAVY is fucking dumb and has been debunked both on paper and in live demonstrations countless times now, yet armchair commando idiots still cling to it.

 

 

So progressive they introduced a round that would be out of date by the ever so recent year of 1900, also, what gun did they design exactly to fit around their cartridge? the 1911 has been around since....well, take a wild guess by the name? your comparison is bad and you should feel bad. they also didn't design the Glock 21 last I checked, which was "already out there" and "unique and reliable" (or, at least the Glock WAS unique at one point in time before everyone copied it), also, it's so desirable that, even to this day, no one but guncrafter themselves have actually loaded .50 GI commercially. That must be an indicator of great sales and desirability or something.

 

 

Lets break this down.

 

Round count: down from 13 to 8 (or 9 with the retardedly big baseplate extension, single stack mag capacity from a double stack gun!)

 

"Same force as a .41 Mag" first comment. LOLOLOLOL, second comment, what exactly do the .50 GI and the .41 Remington Magnum have in common? being centerfire? being designed for firearms that fit in your hands?..... I give up.

 

3. Let's do some math here, he quotes 2 bullet weights and velocities in this article, 275 gr at 875 fps, and 300 gr at 700 (!) fps, that comes out to 635J on the first, which is actually lower then non range grade .40 S&W, 9mm Luger +P or even some standard pressure 9mm Luger loadings, And many regular pressure .45 ACP in many weights, let alone .45 ACP +P, the other load, the infamous "CAUSES DINGS AND DOESN'T SHATTER ON TARGETS, WILL TOTALLY BREAK SOMEONES STERNUM THROUGH BODY ARMOR AND KNOCK THEM OUT!" round, that comes in at a whopping 442J, this literally means that even .38 Special +P with a 158gr loading out a 4" barrel inefficient revolver, a round I consider one of the worst still in common use, is actually a stronger loading then the mystical loading he creamed his pants over.

 

The 41 Reminton Magnum? it can generate muzzle energies as high as 1,400-1,600 joules, out a revolver which are less efficient then semi autos. the 3 most common self defense rounds for pistols in the US throw the .50 GI in the dumpster, rounds like hotter 7.62mm Tokarev and 10mm Auto beat the shit out of of it, .41 Remington Magnum is not even a goddamn comparison, It shit fucks it in every way possible. (It's also somewhat ironic he went for a somewhat unpopular magnum like the .41 while harping about this complete flop of a cartridge and how desirable it will be, It was for a time chambered in the Desert Eagle he himself admits isn't practical, it was dropped because it didn't sell as well as the other caliber offerings, It's also pretty much the only semi auto I can think of that ever chambered it, though maybe some more obscure ones like the AMT Automag series did at some point, I'd have to double check that one though.)

 

So, where exactly is this tall order you're speaking of, I'm not seeing it? is it coming later? maybe in 10 years instead of 8? (which is 2 more rounds then your conversion kit holds.)

 

I've had enough of this shit for now and can only take so much at once, I might do a part 2 later maybe idk.

 

 

Also, some pre notes for the above.

 

1. I am the king of pedantry, so, I must say that if you try to use my ability against me and point out that a 5.7x28mm SMG is actually a "PDW", I'll get Donward to hire a hardcore gimp to find you and shove a live salmon all the way up your asshole.

 

2. The reason I consider .38 Special so bad is because It's also a dated cartridge with an incredibly low chamber pressure while being physically longer then many semi auto cartridges and rimmed limiting it to revolvers or specially designed semi autos (but why do that for .38 Special, honestly?), but considering it's age, it at least has an excuse. but really, the .38 Special essentially fires a 9mm projectile contrary to It's name due to different standards of measurments (which is why it can fit into the chamber of a .357 Magnum, the 9mm Luger fires a .355 diameter bullet for reference).  if you want a relatively cheap short, sub compact defensive gun with little recoil, don't buy some shitty small frame snub nose revolver in .38 Special, get something like a G43 or a Surplus Makarov. (Despite Makarovs often being called full sized service pistols, They're actually rather small.) If you want a regular compact or full size, just buy a 9mm Luger Glock or CZ or one of the evelenty billion clones for them on the market at a reasonable price (You can get a Glock or CZ-75B or most of CZ's non competition offerings new for like $500 or less if you find a good deal). despite being physically smaller, 9mm Luger beats the shit out of .38 Special performance wise, has far more guns and modern ammunition choices to choose from, and said guns carry alot more while being more durable and reliable. (Speaking of Donward, Dealwithit.gif)

One pre note I forgot.

 

3. Yes, it technically is possible to kill someone through body armor if it doesn't penetrate through an effect called pitting which is where the round won't penetrate but cause a pit in the armor deep enough to cause internal injuries, but 1. you're still far more likely to survive this then a full penetration and 2. It turns out what most of these "knock down through body armor!" forget to remember is that all body armor sold on the market is tested for this against the rounds they're rated to even be sold, memory serve me, anything that causes more then 44mm of pitting on impact (the standards may have changed since then) on a non penetration is rejected outright, most modern body armor will get like half of this or less against rounds they're rated for or slightly above, trying to kill or severely wound someone with a vastly underpowered round (reminder, IIIA is rated to stop .44 Magnum and 00 plated buckshot out of a 12 gauge, .50 GI is absolutely nothing compared to that, even level IIA is rated to stop .357 Magnum at significantly higher velocities, still shits on .50 GI) "BECAUSE IT'S BIG AND HEAVY" through pitting is still a retarded idea and always will be.

 

Now then, part 2: electric "I'm going to slit my wrists reading this shit any longer" boogaloo.

 

 

Something tells me the writer of this article (and the designers of the .50 GI while we're at it) are no strangers to riding the short bus, though assuming they went to school at all may be a stretch. Yes, the cartridge doesn't just operate at "lower pressures", (and the caliber of a cartridge has nothing to do with how high you can raise the chamber pressure to, fun advice.) it operates at a mind bendingly low PSI of 15,000 psi, this is actually the lowest PSI cartridge I can think of that isn't originally a black powder cartridge (and some rounds that even are formerly black powder cartridges can be loaded hotter.) This line also makes him sound like a shill, as that line is taken from Guncrafters own website that, to this day is still there, and I quote.

 

 

http://guncrafterindustries.com/50-gi-cartridge/

 

If this is such a thick walled cartridge, why load it to such dogshit PSI levels? Thick walled cartridges can handle higher PSI and have a longer reloading life anyway, fuck, I can legitimately be a better gun and ammo designer then Guncrafters and I've never even done it professionally.

 

I'd also like to point out that Guncrafters considers their round "versatile"..... at what?

 

 

and worse, they use the highly flawed TKO system to measure the "STOPPING POWER!" of their round, they even one up the author of this article in stupidity and not only claim their round has the same or better "stopping power" as .41 Remington Magnum, but even higher then .44 Magnum now!

 

 

 

This makes it so much easier for me, It not allows me to not only show where the author got his braindead thought process from earlier, but also allows me to destroy guncrafter's logic while showing just how bad the TKO system really is and why it's seen as a joke to so many. Pictures really are worth a thousand words.

 

Also, "reasonably priced" http://guncrafterindustries.com/product-category/ammo/

 

 

This is also a direct quote from the link I just posted, making the author go from misguided idiot to sounding like an outright shill really fast.

 

 

Probably because they're the only one who makes 1911 "style" .50s (because calling them clones would just make them sound non innovative!) They've now gone ahead and took an otherwise good gun known as the Glock (Guncrafters patent pending, I mean, since they supposedly designed a gun around a cartridge, that means they invented the 1911A1 and Glock G21 right?) and made it significantly worse in every way possible with a conversion kit that makes it less appealing in every way possible!

 

 

Yeah, because fuck gathering data and conducting simple tests to give a fully accurate picture of a product, you should run around like a (more) spastic version of JumpIf Not Zero because you're TOO FUCKING TACTICAL for your own good.

 

 

I don't believe you.

 

 

Guns have recoil, who knew? Also, I bet it puts a hole or a DING in the target when it hits, fascinating! Something to behold! Like an Aurora up north, or a shitty article that makes you question your sanity on why the fuck someone is getting paid to write this shit and get published. (Also, you might want to look up what harmonic resonance actually is, unlike your gun, that actually would be "something to behold" on what it would do to your hands.)

 

 

.......

 

Does he even know how tough the engine block of a car actually IS? even a newer aluminum one would probably laugh this round off, an all steel one, mainly from a truck or something would not be damaged at all by such fire. man, if only someone has tested just how much abuse an old rusted engine block that isn't even up to shape can take.

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-54-busting-an-engine-block/

 

.....Oh.

 

Spoilers,  He shoots at an old 70's Era Dodge pickup truck engine block that's very rusted and in poor shape, yet despite this,.357 magnum does literally nothing, .44 JHP barely leaves a dimple in the thinnest part, a 12 gauge slug from an 870 can break through the outside housing but didn't penetrate the cylinder walls, 5.56x45mm M193 and M855 from an M16's 20" barrel penetrated the outside housing but not the cylinder wall, 30-06 Surplus ball penetrated the outside housing but not the cylinder wall....what finally DID penetrate the housing and cylinder wall? .30-06 M2 Black tip from a Garand. Nevermind having to rely on pitting to "break someone's sternum through body armor", if .50 GI was actually strong enough to punch though and damage said engine block so badly that it could reliably dead stop a car or truck, you wouldn't need to worry about pitting, it would slice though any soft body armor and most hardened plates like butter. yet it can't even do that.

 

....?

 

Man, we need to modify the TKO factor to take hardened material penetration into account, because people need to be informed that .50 GI is just as good as .30-06 steel core AP at penetration against steel! (despite the fact it will only "leave dings" on metallic targets.)

 

As for his second part, 1. what SWAT officer in his right mind would ever use a .50 GI chambered gun? and 2. Even if you found one of these mystical unicorns in the wild, what would have to be going through his mind to be thinking "Oh, a dangerous assailant is fleeing in a vehicle, should I A. Shoot at the doors and windows at the target himself, B. try to take out the engine block with my actual rifle or shotgun, which might actually do something? or C. "Oh shit, a dangerous assailant is fleeing, I better drop my rifle or shotgun and try to stop his automobile by shooting at his engine compartment with my sidearm!"

 

I'll let you decide the best course of action here.

 

 

Yes, because Police agencies who are very budget concerned will love the idea of buying conversion kits for their guns to a gimmick round that makes said gun worse in every was possible afterwards and If anything, if an officer really wants a high caliber handgun that's not a Glock, they're probably just going to get a 1911A1 or something which are really common, but I guess I could be wrong, we'll have to wait 8 years and see I guess.

 

 

By drawing a weapon which has terrible ammunition capacity and would technically have less "STOPPING POWER!" then 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP, all of which are vastly more common gun and ammo wise?

 

SWAT officers will never use this retarded shit, get over it.

 

 

"well-put-together"

 

 

 

Yes, because your shitty gimmick gun which puts out less actual firepower then your opponents weapon will make you magically come out on top in a firefight! Other factors in a fire fight? what are those?

 

 

This is shockingly dumb even for his standards, this is perhaps the WORST round you could ever use for any sort of hunting, even pest control. "Tough skinned wild "bore"? (Bore is the inside of a firearm barrel, Boar is a species of swine you imbecile.) Swine generally aren't that thick skinned, infact, sheep and pig are about the closest physiological matches to humans and used in ballistics tests for when you need the most accurate results possible (this is a massive pain the ass to do however and requires alot of paperwork to do professionally), Boars aren't much tougher then your garden variety pig or feral hog, If you can bring one down in one shot? wow, good for you, so can about damn near any other caliber when placed right.

 

 

I feel like I've heard this before... the versatile part and the "great SMG round" part.

 

Let me explain, in detail, why it's actually a terribly shitty SMG round just like it is a pistol round, or a round for anything.

 

Lets see what you look for in modern SMG design.

 

1. Obviously the force multiplier over a pistol of a fully automatic weapon with a stock (preferably) you can more comfortably use with 2 hands then a pistol, but why use .50 GI? .45 ACP is already argued as too heavy for an SMG. smaller calibers are much more common as they recoil less (very important for a fully automatic weapon) and you can fit the same amount of rounds in a smaller magazine using a round with a smaller total diameter, said magazines will also weigh less allowing you to carry more. You also preferably want to make an SMG as small as possible, this isn't WW2, SMGs are basically all but phased out in military use, falling in favor of Carbines/SBRs and PDWs which can do everything an SMG can do better, LEOs are trending the same way, why make an smg around a round that would make it even bigger, heavier, and stronger recoiling using a round with terrible ballistics thus making trying to sell it even LESS appealing?

 

2. You generally get an advantage running hotter loads in an SMG, as the increase in barrel length gives you higher velocities, the larger, heavier weapon with a stock and a handguard (preferably) will make controlling it easier, and in certain designs, using hotter ammunition will give you an increase in rate of fire, particularly true with shorter actions that means the returning gasses to operate the system have less distance to travel, (I sure hope you're using a gas operated SMG design and not a blowback dark ages one.) Here's the thing about barrel length and increased velocities however, not all are created equal, while there's more factors then this to how much velocity per length of barrel you'll get out of a cartridge, 2 of the big ones are 1. how big is the powder charge, second part of this question, how big is the powder charge relative to the size/weight of the round you're pushing? (really goddamn small in this case) and 2. what's the PSI? (15,000 PSI.... jesus christ I still can't believe someone actually made a smokeless powder round in the 21st century no less that low.) what does this mean? simple, it means that .50 GI will get damn near nothing from a longer barrel, it would actually even be easy to get negative results from one, also, speaking of hot rounds speeding up rate of fire, does 15,000 psi sound like something that's going to make a full auto action blaze? and yet, even with the lower rate of fire you'd get from running this over bog standard 9mm in the same weapon, the 9mm would probably still have less recoil and would certainly have better ballistics.

 

A .50 GI SMG is actually a painfully bad idea, and I sincerely hope no one even tries to invent one ever. God knows how much retarded shit such a thing would do to TV, Movies and Video Games everywhere.

 

Ok, I'm finally done with this shit, I guess I did 3 pre notes, I forgot my post note.

 

4. Why the hell am I doing this? mostly because I hate myself or something, but things like this are a big part of the reason why.

But who needs that when the .50 GI is better then a .44 Magnum JHP according to the completely unflawed TKO metric?!

 

And can hit hard enough with a vest on to cause your sternum to split in half knocking you unconscious while somehow having enough penetration to punch through a steel engine block?!

Still a smaller design then a proposed .50 GI SMG.

 

 

 

RIP .Fiddy GEE EYE

[Sturgeon]

I was thinking last night that a .45 Super rated SMG that could feed JHPs wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for police direct action/SWAT units. You could feed it .45 ACP hardball for training, and your duty Super loads would be clocking close to 1,300 ft/s out of an 8" SMG barrel. The extra velocity would make the guns flat shooting enough out to 100m or so, plenty of range for the purpose, and it would also be a nice margin against barriers. Expansion would probably be quite reliable with HSTs or T-Serieses, even after plowing through car doors and windshields. Those rwo bullets really bring the effectiveness of .45 a lot closer to its reputation, too.

Plus, if you need to be vewwy quiet with a suppressor, you can just stuff regular pressure rounds in the mag.

The downsides don't seem so important in this role. SWAT usually only carry three or four mags anyway, so the unusually heavy ammo isn't a significant burden, and the SMG's stock and additional mass would probably help mitigate the extra recoil of the Super well enough. The resulting SMG would probably be less obnoxious than a short barreled 5.56 carbine.

I wonder what SMGs out there can handle .45 Super, and how well they do with it. It's an interesting concept.

[Khand-e]

I was thinking last night that a .45 Super rated SMG that could feed JHPs wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for police direct action/SWAT units. You could feed it .45 ACP hardball for training, and your duty Super loads would be clocking close to 1,300 ft/s out of an 8" SMG barrel. The extra velocity would make the guns flat shooting enough out to 100m or so, plenty of range for the purpose, and it would also be a nice margin against barriers. Expansion would probably be quite reliable with HSTs or T-Serieses, even after plowing through car doors and windshields. Those rwo bullets really bring the effectiveness of .45 a lot closer to its reputation, too.

Plus, if you need to be vewwy quiet with a suppressor, you can just stuff regular pressure rounds in the mag.

The downsides don't seem so important in this role. SWAT usually only carry three or four mags anyway, so the unusually heavy ammo isn't a significant burden, and the SMG's stock and additional mass would probably help mitigate the extra recoil of the Super well enough. The resulting SMG would probably be less obnoxious than a short barreled 5.56 carbine.

I wonder what SMGs out there can handle .45 Super, and how well they do with it. It's an interesting concept.

 

I've actually thought of the same thing before, and funnily enough, despite the fact .50 GI is actually significantly weaker then .45 Super and larger in diameter, it probably has the same, if not worse recoil then .45 Super considering the much heavier bullet weights the .50 GI uses (for those who don't understand, in the case of slow and heavy rounds vs fast and light, given all other factors being equal, slow and heavy rounds will generate more felt recoil then fast and light ones.) One important factor I forgot to address with SMGs vs Pistols is that the increase in velocity is important for more then just "STOPPING POWER!", the more important part is that it increases the effective range, which is also helped by the fact it's easier to control and aim an SMG which are heavier and generally have stocks and handguards most of the time to hold onto, but also because you can generally mount better sights to them and accessories like vertical foregrips if you really deem it necessary. however, the .50 GI gains almost nothing from longer barrels, and would still have significant more recoil then a 9mm Luger or .45 ACP SMG which negates this advantage almost completely. I should amend this in my original post, but right here should be fine.

 

I think the biggest problem with using a .45 Super SMG though would be logistics and price, as I said earlier, a vast majority of Police departments/SWAT units are incredibly budgetary minded, and .45 Super is generally only loaded commercially by smaller specialty "hot rod" brands like Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Double Tap, etc. so, aside from the fact it could easily drain supplies of ammunition, .45 Super is generally more expensive then regular .45 ACP or .45 ACP +P loadings, you'd also have to build it stronger or at least modify it to handle the higher pressures (wouldn't be much, usually just a good recoil buffer pad and a good guide rod/spring has worked fine for me in pistols, but some designers tend to go crazy with features and jack up the price as a result.)

 

Still, It's not a bad idea and think it's an interesting concept, plus .45 Super does tend to get more from longer barrels then regular .45 ACP for PSI reasons aswell. (.45 Super for those not in the know is basically a .45 ACP case with a thicker case wall and internal webbing, it can handle much higher pressures of 28,000-30,000 PSI and uses the same bullet weights as standard .45 ACP, not exactly earth scorching pressures, but a significant improvement over .45 ACP itself and certainly far better then 15 fucking thousand.) It would reliably expand and penetrate with the right loads with barrier blind capacity very easily as you pointed out already. the idea of using .45 ACP/.45 ACP +P  for training is interesting as well and could at least mitigate some of my logistical concerns for the idea.

 

I think it's a decent idea and at least worth a discussion.

[Sturgeon]

You know, .50 GI wouldn't be half bad if you loaded it with unjacketed lead hollow points, and then designed a revolver to fire it that had quick-change disposable stamped steel cylinders.

 

I mean, I can't imagine what it would be useful for, but it probably wouldn't be terrible as an el cheapo saturday night special.

[Khand-e]

On 12/18/2016 at 4:41 PM, Sturgeon said:

You know, .50 GI wouldn't be half bad if you loaded it with unjacketed lead hollow points, and then designed a revolver to fire it that had quick-change disposable stamped steel cylinders.

 

I mean, I can't imagine what it would be useful for, but it probably wouldn't be terrible as an el cheapo saturday night special.

 

The .50 GI and it's patented VERSATILITY has enlightened you!

 

Funnily enough, that for some reason is one line that actually baffles me more then any other almost. what IS the versatility they speak of? It's designed for slow, heavy bullets and not much else and due to it's terrible overall design leaves you little room for experimentation or god forbid wildcatting it.

 

Like, let me think here.

 

Experimentation/Wildcatting - literally just said this, but may aswell put it on the formal list on "things this shit round would be terrible for".

 

Self defense/Police weapon - Terrible for several reasons I already pointed out compared to far more popular standard sized pistol cartridges, (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 ACP,) shit, even .357 SIG is at least occasionally used by some Police and SWAT departments aswell as civilian shooters and, despite not being as popular as the main 3 full sized defensive pistol cartridges in the US, still at least far better selling gun model and ammunition wise then .50 GI

 

Plinking/Target shooting - Considering their "reasonably priced" rounds are 30 dollars for 20 rounds a box and 50 dollars for their "high quality" (doctorevil.gif) loadings, yeah, have fun with that range bill, and god forbid you use it in tandem with one of their absurdly overpriced 1911A1 clones. I could probably afford to do this, but I wouldn't because It's stupid, the vast majority of shooters couldn't even if they wanted to.

 

Use in SMG/PCCs - I already covered why the former is a terrible idea, this also goes for the latter! Only in this case it's worse because PCCs are already of questionable practicality, just now you get the all the weaknesses of using it in an SMG in a form that's semi auto only and likely using (even more) terrible magazine capacity.

 

Hunting/Pest Control/Self Defense vs dangerous animals - LOL No.

 

Competitive shooting - I guess you could do this if you're a glutton for punishment and enjoy getting thrown in the fucking dumpster and finishing last every event to people using different, cheaper yet better competition models of 1911A1s or CZ-75 derivatives chambered in 9mm Luger, .38 Super or .40 S&W (Standard major divison for IPSC has a caliber requirement of at least 10mm, not sure about USPSA), and considering that, even though race guns are generally also expensive, they're not as expensive as Guncrafters offerings unless they have like every goddamn bell and whistle (which you can get anyway by yourself by not buying a Guncrafter model due to how much you'll save by not doing so) on them, which you'll notice Guncrafters offerings firmly lack. And as much as I like Glocks and their clones, they're generally not the best competition guns. (well, they're not terrible either, just not the best. maybe you can modify them heavily enough to compete, but there's a really good reason tweaked out CZ-75 and 1911A1 clones tend to dominate the shit out of the competitive scene.)

 

Bragging about having a shitty gimmick gun with little practicality - If I wanted an oversized gimmick semi auto in "50 CALIBER!", I'd buy a Desert Eagle, at least THAT you can actually hunt or defend yourself against hostile large animals from with. (assuming the action doesn't get fucked by the elements.) and you can show off to video game, tv and movie wannabe gun know it all serfs and make them drool over it like idiots because they've never actually touched a real gun before. (or airsofters if you truly hate yourself.)

 

Having a better chance in a firefight then someone equipped with a Liberator pistol or Deer gun - I FOUND IT, I FOUND THE VERSATILITY!

[Collimatrix]

Make tiny, .50 cal miniaturized Obus-G rounds.  Should get 40-something millimeters of penetration.

[Donward]

You know, .50 GI wouldn't be half bad if you loaded it with unjacketed lead hollow points, and then designed a revolver to fire it that had quick-change disposable stamped steel cylinders.

 

I mean, I can't imagine what it would be useful for, but it probably wouldn't be terrible as an el cheapo saturday night special.

 

Couple this with a .Fiddy Gee Eye chambered lever action rifle and I think we will have created the pinnacle Cowboy Action Shooting weapons.

[Toxn]

Make tiny, .50 cal miniaturized Obus-G rounds.  Should get 40-something millimeters of penetration.

I thought state of the art for miniature HEAT was 30x113mm HEDP?

 

Which means that penetration should be more like 20mm...

[Collimatrix]

I thought state of the art for miniature HEAT was 30x113mm HEDP?

 

Which means that penetration should be more like 20mm...

 

Might be?  I vaguely recall some NDIA presentations on improvements in liner manufacture for 40mm HEDP that drastically improved penetration.  AIUI, 30mm and 40mm HEDP rounds are a) optimized for mass-manufacture, not penetration and b ) missing out on a significant amount of penetration because of the "dual purpose."  But they have to work as fragmentation rounds too.

 

So you could probably make teeny-weenie HEAT rounds that have several calibers worth of penetration.  I'm not sure what they would be good for aside from giggles.

[Toxn]

Might be?  I vaguely recall some NDIA presentations on improvements in liner manufacture for 40mm HEDP that drastically improved penetration.  AIUI, 30mm and 40mm HEDP rounds are a) optimized for mass-manufacture, not penetration and b ) missing out on a significant amount of penetration because of the "dual purpose."  But they have to work as fragmentation rounds too.

 

So you could probably make teeny-weenie HEAT rounds that have several calibers worth of penetration.  I'm not sure what they would be good for aside from giggles.

I was under the impression that some sort of scaling effect applied (it usually does) so I just used the nearest size-equivalent that I know to be effective.

 

30x113mm HEDP is an electronic marvel that includes a fluted liner, so I figure that it is close to as good as you can get for that calibre barring the use of a smooth bore (an internal bearing assembly would presumably take up too much of the diameter). My guess here is that if you were to use state-of-the-art fabrication, cutting-edge electronics, a really expensive and effective liner material (plus an appropriately insane explosive charge, waveshapers et al) and have the whole thing assembled by swiss watchmakers you might be able to squeeze out 2.5 calibres worth of penetration minus the thickness of the shell.

 

Which means that, for an obscene price, your wunder-.50 might get you 25-odd mm of penetration.

[LoooSeR]

[LoooSeR]

 

[LoooSeR]

Islamic party of Turkestan or Taukhid Val-Jihad in Syria (Uzbekistan jihadists, speek in Russian) explain Steur AUG.

   Jihad Weapon Testing team does not reccomend it for true warriors of Allakh, as plastic parts can be broken rather easily in the field and weapon is not reliable.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

Oh hi, my name's Oedipus by my friends call me Ed you can call me that too so you like guns? I like guns too. Want some vodka? Do you have sisters? Also, off the wall, are you for sale? Haha just kidding but no really I can be your green-card man. 

[Collimatrix]

I did chance upon an application where itty bitty shaped charges are designed for penetration first; petroleum exploration!

 

A 2 inch mining shaped charge will apparently punch 11.5 inches of sandstone.  I have no idea how sandstone compared to steel, but as a general rule of thumb, shaped charges will penetrate into concrete about twice as far as they will steel.  So that would be almost three charge diameters.

[Toxn]

I did chance upon an application where itty bitty shaped charges are designed for penetration first; https://www.slb.com/~/media/Files/perforating/product_sheets/gun_systems/carrier/powerjetnova_ps.pdf'>petroleum exploration!

A 2 inch mining shaped charge will apparently punch 11.5 inches of sandstone. I have no idea how sandstone compared to steel, but as a general rule of thumb, shaped charges will penetrate into concrete about twice as far as they will steel. So that would be almost three charge diameters.

Nice find!

I'd love to see if there's any other data on micro-heat. It would be an amazingly expensive thing to try to sell to the military, so I feel it must have been studied by someone on that basis alone.

[Donward]

 

Marsha! Marsha! Marsha!