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The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.


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On 7/10/2017 at 4:54 AM, LoooSeR said:

Claimed to be Famas

 

 

Yes, the giveaway is the shape of the trigger guard and the little thing in front of the trigger.

 

FAMAS F1 has a sheet metal trigger guard that can be rotated out of the way so the rifle can be used with mittens.  It also has a safety inside the trigger guard and right in front of the trigger.  The original VHS has a safety inside the trigger guard as well, but it has a polymer trigger guard that is much thicker than the sheet steel one on the FAMAS.  VHS-2 has an HK-style safety that is not located inside the trigger guard.

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8 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

GERPADERPS: "PKMs are TOO POWERFUL! Our puny weapons are no match!"

CZECHS: "Hold my beer."
 

 


FWIW:  The British Army resisted the 40mm UBGL for years, claiming that their 51mm mortar filled the same role.  60mm "commando" mortars are nothing new either.  You can make the tubes and bases super light, but that does nothing to make the individual mortar bombs any smaller or lighter.

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10 minutes ago, D.E. Watters said:


FWIW:  The British Army resisted the 40mm UBGL for years, claiming that their 51mm mortar filled the same role.  60mm "commando" mortars are nothing new either.  You can make the tubes and bases super light, but that does nothing to make the individual mortar bombs any smaller or lighter.

I know Denel put some effort into making fire-control computers for 60mm mortars (including GPS and laser rangefinder), on the basis that zapping the target with the first round was the best increase in firepower you could achieve. They then went kind of crazy and produced this.

 

Edit: the comments on that article are fascinating:

Quote

The SANDF mindset is, we have no logistics, even in 88 when the SADF was in its prime, logistics was always a problem and we had to plan attacks around when enough ammunition and diesel would be available, especially artillery has high logistics demands. The SANDF response is essentially to say let’s take the ratel as example can carry either 148- 81mm bombs at a weight of 666kg or for the same weight it can carry 391- 60mm bombs or 41- 120mm mortars. Now if we take a sustained rate of fire of 16 bombs per minute that means 120mm gives support fire for 2.5 minutes, an 81mm for 9.25 minutes and a 60mm for 24.4 minutes. Therefore if you have no logistics the 60mm seems 10 times better than the 120mm. They see it strictly as a weapon to keep people’s heads down instead of having a dedicated logistics vehicle attached to the mortar vehicle carrying an additional 10 tons of ammunition. With 120mm mortars with large calibre pre-fragmentation you can destroy even lightly armoured battalions just like you can with MLRS or 155 artillery. You cannot do it with 60mm. On 120mm you can even use laser terminal guidance with HEAT projectiles or GPS guidance for urban warfare. But these capabilities are only available if you use technology and have logistics. SANDF is 25 years behind

 

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On 10/07/2017 at 0:54 PM, LoooSeR said:

Claimed to be Famas

Spoiler

yMpenLN.jpg

 

That's the FAMAS FELIN (Stands for Infantry man with integrated equipement and datalink).

A kit for soldier to share intel in real time, some vehicles are equiped with it

http://www.armyrecognition.com/france_french_army_military_equipment_uk/felin_sagem_future_soldier_infantry_equipment_soldier_gear_technical_data_sheet_specifications_uk.html

 

322550xinsrc1320305101007125562635.jpg

 

The HK416F has started to replace the FAMAS in our army and will also be equipped with the FELIN system.

The FAMAS should dissapear from infantry regiment by 2021 and completely phased out by 2028

 

The FELIN system also equip the 5,56 minimi LMG and the FR F2 7,62 mm DMR

 

19586132573_0581244d7f_b.jpg

 

img_0861.jpg

 

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40 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

That's the FAMAS FELIN (Stands for Infantry man with integrated equipement and datalink).

A kit for soldier to share intel in real time, some vehicles are equiped with it

 

 

Looks like the French were attaching COTS equipment to the FAMAS via the pic rails from the FELIN system:

 

rC0CiaG.jpg

 

One of the problems with FAMAS is that it does not have any good ways to mount optics.  The carry handle isn't rigid at all:

 

vxFhRNJ.png

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47 minutes ago, Collimatrix said:

Looks like the French were attaching COTS equipment to the FAMAS via the pic rails from the FELIN system:

Spoiler

rC0CiaG.jpg

One of the problems with FAMAS is that it does not have any good ways to mount optics.  The carry handle isn't rigid at all:

Spoiler

vxFhRNJ.png

 

Yep but in this case, the system seem to also be connected, just without the sight (for the least), we can see the cable making the link between the weapon and the soldier gear on the picture loooser posted.

As long as you have the computer and the weapon (there are command buttons on the forward grip), you have the base of the system, then the rest is just add on module depending on how much weight you want to carry and the needs for the mission.

 

832561felin.jpg

 

Not much use having that huge night sight, if you have googles or if it's a day mission.

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5 hours ago, D.E. Watters said:


FWIW:  The British Army resisted the 40mm UBGL for years, claiming that their 51mm mortar filled the same role.  60mm "commando" mortars are nothing new either.  You can make the tubes and bases super light, but that does nothing to make the individual mortar bombs any smaller or lighter.

 

Can you point me to some of the precedents?

 

As far as I see it, what's remarkable about this is:

 

1. No setup required.

 

2. One man can operate it.

 

So, one dude in the platoon could readily carry this plus, say 11 mortar bombs. That would be very significant, I think.

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1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Can you point me to some of the precedents?

 

As far as I see it, what's remarkable about this is:

 

1. No setup required.

 

2. One man can operate it.

 

So, one dude in the platoon could readily carry this plus, say 11 mortar bombs. That would be very significant, I think.

I think he means this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-4_Commando_Mortar

 

Been around forever, can be carried and fired by one guy etc. We liked 'em and kept making them into the present day.

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1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Can you point me to some of the precedents?

 

As far as I see it, what's remarkable about this is:

 

1. No setup required.

 

2. One man can operate it.

 

So, one dude in the platoon could readily carry this plus, say 11 mortar bombs. That would be very significant, I think.


The British 2" Mk VII* and Mk VIII mortars of WW2 were the forerunners of the 51mm L9A1 light mortar.  Supposedly, the 40mm UBGL was finally adopted because the stockpile of 51mm bombs was quickly used up in Afghanistan and Iraq, and there was no longer a commercial source anywhere outside of India.  Beside India, Yugoslavia once made and exported its own clone, the M8.

The US 60mm M19 Mortar with its original M1 baseplate would fit the Commando mortar concept, although it was hardly lightweight.  This was developed during WW2.

The Brandt 60mm Type A and Type V Commando mortars were exported from France to around 20 different countries, and production was licensed to Chile, at minimum.  After Brandt was rolled up into the Thales empire as TDA, these became the MO 60 CA and MO 60 CV. Brandt clones appear to include the Argentine MC 1-60 FMK-2 Mod 0 Commando mortar, the Iranian HM12 Fateh and HM13 Narollah, the Portuguese M/968 60 mm Commando mortar (made by FBP/INDEP),

Here is the Hirtenberger M6C from Austria.  I think that it was formerly known as the Böhler C6.  Arsenal of Bulgaria reportedly licensed the C6-210 design.

http://hds.hirtenberger.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/HDS_60mm_CdoSystem.pdf

The Soltam 60 mm C 03 Commando mortar has been used by the Israelis and Hondurans.

The LM-60K and LM-60 K2 60 mm Commando mortars were produced in Poland.

The ROMARM 60 mm Commando mortar was produced in Romania.

The
ST Kinetics 60 mm Commando mortar was produced in Singapore.

Vektor 60 mm M4 series of Commando mortars reportedly saw use by the SANDF.  The M4L3 variant was also reportedly sold to the Mexican Army.

The EXPAL 60 mm Commando mortar was supposedly adopted by the Spanish military.

The
MKEK 60 mm Commando mortar  was supposedly adopted by the Turkish military.

The various former Yugoslav republics have built and used the M70 60mm mortar.  Export sales have supposedly been made to El Salvador.

 

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26 minutes ago, D.E. Watters said:


The British 2" Mk VII* and Mk VIII mortars of WW2 were the forerunners of the 51mm L9A1 light mortar.  Supposedly, the 40mm UBGL was finally adopted because the stockpile of 51mm bombs was quickly used up in Afghanistan and Iraq, and there was no longer a commercial source anywhere outside of India.  Beside India, Yugoslavia once made and exported its own clone, the M8.

The US 60mm M19 Mortar with its original M1 baseplate would fit the Commando mortar concept, although it was hardly lightweight.  This was developed during WW2.

The Brandt 60mm Type A and Type V Commando mortars were exported from France to around 20 different countries, and production was licensed to Chile, at minimum.  After Brandt was rolled up into the Thales empire as TDA, these became the MO 60 CA and MO 60 CV. Brandt clones appear to include the Argentine MC 1-60 FMK-2 Mod 0 Commando mortar, the Iranian HM12 Fateh and HM13 Narollah, the Portuguese M/968 60 mm Commando mortar (made by FBP/INDEP),

Here is the Hirtenberger M6C from Austria.  I think that it was formerly known as the Böhler C6.  Arsenal of Bulgaria reportedly licensed the C6-210 design.

http://hds.hirtenberger.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/HDS_60mm_CdoSystem.pdf

The Soltam 60 mm C 03 Commando mortar has been used by the Israelis and Hondurans.

The LM-60K and LM-60 K2 60 mm Commando mortars were produced in Poland.

The ROMARM 60 mm Commando mortar was produced in Romania.

The
ST Kinetics 60 mm Commando mortar was produced in Singapore.

Vektor 60 mm M4 series of Commando mortars reportedly saw use by the SANDF.  The M4L3 variant was also reportedly sold to the Mexican Army.

The EXPAL 60 mm Commando mortar was supposedly adopted by the Spanish military.

The
MKEK 60 mm Commando mortar  was supposedly adopted by the Turkish military.

The various former Yugoslav republics have built and used the M70 60mm mortar.  Export sales have supposedly been made to El Salvador.

 

 

So, I will admit to being Not A Mortar Expert, and until very recently the class of "commando" mortars was not something I was well aware of.

However, I don't think the convertible mortars like the M19 and M224 have sighting systems in individual mode, and they can't be carried loaded, isn't that right?

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