The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[roguetechie]

I have marinated Roma tomatoes and mozzarella and pita bread to put them on... 

 

This girl isn't a fan of curry.

[Donward]

3 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Wait, weren't you just saying that IN DA STREETZ you'll never have to reload your gun? Be consistent, please.

 

What? You brought up the need for a 2nd mag, not I.

 

4 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

NANANANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU GAMING DOESN'T COUNT NEVER MIND THE FACT THAT MOST MODERN INNOVATIONS COME FROM GAMING SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UUUUUUP

 

 

OK...

 

5 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Hey dude, maybe I just don't want my gun to slowly chew my ammo to pieces every time I unload it for the night, eh?

 

So you just spend all day loading and loading ammo? I know you're a cartridge collector and all but are you afraid that this will somehow negatively affect the resale value of your Federal 12 Gauge target load?

 

8 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

 

So the fact that you have to reload more negates the disadvantage of having a long reload? What kinda logic is that?

 

The 870 Dm has six round mag which you can't top off until you run it dry before starting the reload process. A tube fed you can run off until it has 1 round left, reload with five and never have an empty gun just in case you need to pop off a shot. It's not that hard to top off a pump shotgun. Takes a little bit of practice. But isn't that what "Training" is for?

 

Now if the bloody thing had a 10 round, 15, or 30 round mag, the time you save by not having to reload starts adding up to realistic levels that matter.

 

13 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

So, the entire reason they didn't have multiple magazines aside, the reason they didn't have multiple magazines is because mumble mumble mumble something something bulk

 

Puuuuuh-leeze. Have you ever tried reloading an Enfield with stripper clips? I'd MUUUUUUCH rather use mags. Keep in mind I've run these things in matches before, so I can out-Fudd you there, buddy.

Bulk. Weight. You know the stuff that a certain writer at TFB has been going on a lot about? 

 

Yep, I own an Smle from 1918. Got the stripper clips for them from different manufactures. They're not that big of deal. But I've got big hands. And they are more efficient to use than lugging out the mag on the Lee Enfield, stowing it, getting a new one and clunking it into place. j

 

And again, $800 for a six shot Remington 870 (with one mag?) versus $300-$350 Remington 870 tubular fed. 

 

Edit: Cabelas has a "tactical" 6+1 at $389. *shrug*

 

[Donward]

Remington: We're Totally Not Building a Gimmick Gun Catering To The Iroc Driving Trailer Trash Demographic.

 

[Sturgeon]

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

What? You brought up the need for a 2nd mag, not I.

 

 

Yes, in order to reload with a magazine, you might, I dunno, want a second mag. But I realize you live in fucking Outer Space where extra mags are hard to come by.

 

With you the assumption I guess is that you'll be fighting Skeletor on a catwalk over lava, so just, I dunno, throwing the magazines on the floor is a waste of money or something.
 

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

So you just spend all day loading and loading ammo? I know you're a cartridge collector and all but are you afraid that this will somehow negatively affect the resale value of your Federal 12 Gauge target load?

 

You know, I used a pump shotgun (an 870 Police no less!) for home defense for a long time. Yes, I had to unload and reload it frequently. There were other people in the house, and we didn't want loaded guns around, so while it was unattended (secured, but not all that well - I was pretty poor) it stayed unloaded.

 

If you'd ever actually done something like this, you'd know that cycling the shells through the action doesn't just make them not pretty anymore, it actually tears the fucking rims off, over time.

 

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

The 870 Dm has six round mag which you can't top off until you run it dry before starting the reload process.

 

Yeah, the only people who care about this are the guys who try to "ghost" slugs into the chamber so they can react when the ninja wave attack attracts a grizzly bear.

 

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

A tube fed you can run off until it has 1 round left, reload with five and never have an empty gun just in case you need to pop off a shot. It's not that hard to top off a pump shotgun. Takes a little bit of practice. But isn't that what "Training" is for?

 

Yeah, well, if you knew me like Oedipus does, you'd know that for a long time I ran that fucking 870 Police in 3-gun, so I bet I know a whole lot more about reloading shotguns than you do.

 

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

Bulk. Weight. You know the stuff that a certain writer at TFB has been going on a lot about? 

 

Well, are you suggesting soldiers use mag-fed Remington pump-action shotguns as their primary armament?

If weight's a factor, honey, dearest, don't use a fucking shotgun.

 

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

Yep, I own an Smle from 1918. Got the stripper clips for them from different manufactures. They're not that big of deal. But I've got big hands. And they are more efficient to use than lugging out the mag on the Lee Enfield, stowing it, getting a new one and clunking it into place. j

 

Wow you managed to make the easiest thing in the world sound like a chore.

I ran my first No. 4 in 3 gun, and reloaded it both ways, so screw you.

 

28 minutes ago, Donward said:

And again, $800 for a six shot Remington 870 (with one mag?) versus $300-$350 Remington 870 tubular fed. 

 

Edit: Cabelas has a "tactical" 6+1 at $389. *shrug*

 

If you're buying an 870 at $350, you're getting fucked, because Expressed don't work worth a shit. Buy a Mossberg at that price.

[Sturgeon]

The irony here is that Donward knows so shit little about shotguns that he's missed the only real and most overwhelmingly compelling reason to use a tube-fed shotgun over a magazine-fed one: Shotshells are designed to resist compression forces front to back, but not from the sides. This means that if you leave shotgun box magazines loaded for a long time they squish the shells and fuck up the feeding.

Yeah, wow, I wonder how I learned that was a thing. Once upon a time, I owned a Saiga 12...

It's a much bigger issue with the extended 8-12 rounders, because the magazine spring has to be strong enough to lift that whole stack of shells before the bolt goes home, but it happens to the 5 round mags if you leave 'em too long, too.

[Donward]

25 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

The irony here is that Donward knows so shit little about shotguns that he's missed the only real and most overwhelmingly compelling reason to use a tube-fed shotgun over a magazine-fed one: Shotshells are designed to resist compression forces front to back, but not from the sides. This means that if you leave shotgun box magazines loaded for a long time they squish the shells and fuck up the feeding.

Yeah, wow, I wonder how I learned that was a thing. Once upon a time, I owned a Saiga 12...

It's a much bigger issue with the extended 8-12 rounders, because the magazine spring has to be strong enough to lift that whole stack of shells before the bolt goes home, but it happens to the 5 round mags if you leave 'em too long, too.

Dude you mean like the exact same issue my brother and I ran into with a Saiga we had? Wow. Yeah. Common knowledge. I didn't feel the need to bring that up because who cares? I wasn't going to be jumping to a conclusion on this new mag causing the issues because I don't know if Remington has addressed that issue and it was relevant anyway.

 

I have a bolt action .410 Stevens with a mag that we kept loaded for years because fuck it we got the gun for $10 because we wanted the case it was in and the pressure from the three round mag didn't do shit. The .12 gauge bolt action Stevens with a 3 round mag my brother has also didn't seem to cause a problem. 

 

But I've only been shooting shotguns since 1991. Killing varmints. Hunting. Sporting clays and trap. Just fucking around on our farm. Single shot 16 gauge long toms, side by sides, over unders, pump, mossberg, Remington 870s and 1100s, Ithacas, bolt action, that stupid Saiga. .410 gauge, 20, 16, 12, even a friend's 10 gauge. The only thing I haven't done is black powder. But clearly I don't know shit about shotguns. 

 

*eye roll*

[Sturgeon]

6 minutes ago, Donward said:

Dude you mean like the exact same issue my brother and I ran into with a Saiga we had? Wow. Yeah. Common knowledge. I didn't feel the need to bring that up because who cares?

 

 

Presumably anyone who might be thinking of buying a high capacity box magazine fed shotgun, I would guess.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Donward said:

I have a bolt action .410 Stevens with a mag that we kept loaded for years because fuck it we got the gun for $10 because we wanted the case it was in and the pressure from the three round mag didn't do shit. The .12 gauge bolt action Stevens with a 3 round mag my brother has also didn't seem to cause a problem. 

 

Those bolt actions with 3 round mags have weak ass springs, duh.

 

10 minutes ago, Donward said:

But I've only been shooting shotguns since 1991. Killing varmints. Hunting. Sporting clays and trap. Just fucking around on our farm. Single shot 16 gauge long toms, side by sides, over unders, pump, mossberg, Remington 870s and 1100s, Ithacas, bolt action, that stupid Saiga. .410 gauge, 20, 16, 12, even a friend's 10 gauge. The only thing I haven't done is black powder. But clearly I don't know shit about shotguns. 

 

*eye roll*

 

Even a ten gauge! Wow! Gee mister, you've done all that but you've never bought a second fucking box magazine?

[Donward]

1 minute ago, Sturgeon said:

 

 

Presumably anyone who might be thinking of buying a high capacity box magazine fed shotgun, I would guess.

 

Oh, you got in before my edit. As I said, I wasn't going to bad mouth Remington for having mags that compressed the shells because I don't know if they do or not, maybe they do, maybe they don't and Remington addressed the issue. Don't care, it wasn't the main subject of the debate which was reload speed. I do try to stay on a single topic .

1 minute ago, Sturgeon said:

 

 

Those bolt actions with 3 round mags have weak ass springs, duh.

 

 

Gee, ya think?

 

1 minute ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Even a ten gauge! Wow! Gee mister, you've done all that but you've never bought a second fucking box magazine?

 

No, you got me partner. I've never had to consider buying a second box magazine for a Remington 870 pump action shotgun until today...

[Sturgeon]

23 minutes ago, Donward said:

No, you got me partner. I've never had to consider buying a second box magazine for a Remington 870 pump action shotgun until today...

 

DING! THREAD END!

[Donward]

 

 

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

If the main topic is reload speed,a box magazine is faster than a tube. 

 

I can dual load a shotgun from a chest rig under a timer, and it takes practice. I'd still rather just use mags. 

 

And if you're someone with smaller hands, dual loading may not be possible. So then you're back to one at a time, which sucks. 

 

As far as the "bull of carrying extra magazines into the field" argument, I would rather have all my rounds contained and ready than loose in a bag or pocket. 

 

 

[LoooSeR]

 

Some photos from Karden's LJ.

[Sturgeon]

11 hours ago, Donward said:

 

 

 

It's nice to come home, put my feet up, have a knock-down, drag-out fight about something completely trivial, and then just shake hands and agree that was good sport over a couple of gifs.

[Donward]

20 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

It's nice to come home, put my feet up, have a knock-down, drag-out fight about something completely trivial, and then just shake hands and agree that was good sport over a couple of gifs.

 

Indeed.

 

Especially when one made the mistake of not drying all of his cold weather work clothes and I'm still sitting in my Tied-inspired Under Armour running pants that I use as leisure clothes, waiting for them to dry, drinking coffee and arguing with TFB commenters who insist that Appendix carry isn't fucking stupid.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/#disqus_thread

[ApplesauceBandit]

Since I can't really find anything about this and a lot of you all here tend to be a bit more in the know than I am, would anyone here know if Magnum Research discontinued the Micro Desert Eagle?  It first showed up in 2007 and was talked about for a few years, but seems to have disappeared by 2012.  Magnum Research no longer lists the gun itself on their site, but beyond those two facts, I've got nothing else to really go off of.  

 

[Sturgeon]

I don't believe they still sell them, but I'm not sure.

[Donward]

1 hour ago, ApplesauceBandit said:

Since I can't really find anything about this and a lot of you all here tend to be a bit more in the know than I am, would anyone here know if Magnum Research discontinued the Micro Desert Eagle?  It first showed up in 2007 and was talked about for a few years, but seems to have disappeared by 2012.  Magnum Research no longer lists the gun itself on their site, but beyond those two facts, I've got nothing else to really go off of.  

 

Ehrmagerd! He's flagging his middle finger with the muzzle!!!

 

*Every gun thread ever*

[Khand-e]

1 hour ago, ApplesauceBandit said:

Since I can't really find anything about this and a lot of you all here tend to be a bit more in the know than I am, would anyone here know if Magnum Research discontinued the Micro Desert Eagle?  It first showed up in 2007 and was talked about for a few years, but seems to have disappeared by 2012.  Magnum Research no longer lists the gun itself on their site, but beyond those two facts, I've got nothing else to really go off of.  

 

 

I know the actual designers of the gun MRI bought the rights from, ZVI (Czech based company, used to actually be part of the makers of the recently much talked about FK BRNO pistol before splitting off) had a massive layoff in 2013, that had some rather clear impact on the original Kevin ZP98 model throughout the world.

 

They had to slightly modify the design to get it approved for US importation and manufacture, this lead to some early problems for the US made guns but they got ironed out, as for whether they still make them, well.....

 

https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-Micro-Desert-Eagle-Nickel.asp

 

I didn't have much trouble finding it on their site. *shrug*

[ApplesauceBandit]

5 minutes ago, Khand-e said:

 

I know the actual designers of the gun MRI bought the rights from, ZVI (Czech based company, used to actually be part of the makers of the recently much talked about FK BRNO pistol before splitting off) had a massive layoff in 2013, that had some rather clear impact on the original Kevin ZP98 model throughout the world.

 

They had to slightly modify the design to get it approved for US importation and manufacture, this lead to some early problems for the US made guns but they got ironed out, as for whether they still make them, well.....

 

https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-Micro-Desert-Eagle-Nickel.asp

 

I didn't have much trouble finding it on their site. *shrug*

 

I probably should have clarified, but I couldn't find the gun itself listed on their shop page.  Google still pulls that page up for me too, but nothing on their site seems to still link to it otherwise.

https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Firearms.asp

 

I'll admit to not knowing too much of the business side of things, but while I can see how that'd hurt how many Kevins they're making, don't see how it would impact the MDE's numbers.  My understanding was that once Magnum Research got ahold of the rights to make a gun like that, they no longer needed to worry about ZVI.  Kahr did buy out Magnum Research in 2010, so it could also maybe be that Kahr killed the MDE off shortly after taking over.  Between the price, issues with early ones, and the weird look to it, wouldn't be surprised if it just wasn't selling well enough.

[Khand-e]

I don't know, if you can actually find a later model one, they're pretty nice, they're one of the absolute smallest pocket pistols on the market and about one of the lightest, they also come in a 9x18mm Makarov chambering which is really nice but, I'm not sure MRI makes the Makie version.

[ApplesauceBandit]

3 hours ago, Khand-e said:

I don't know, if you can actually find a later model one, they're pretty nice, they're one of the absolute smallest pocket pistols on the market and about one of the lightest, they also come in a 9x18mm Makarov chambering which is really nice but, I'm not sure MRI makes the Makie version.

 

I actually own one, part of the reason I was curious in the first place.  I've not really got any good pics of mine on hand, but it's in the low 4 digit SN range.  They're well built little things, I could tell where the money went when I picked one up my first time.

 

[Donward]

So I guess YouTube has banned James Yeager's channel.

 

*Shrug*

 

I guess we'll have to endure the unendurable of #UnbanJamesYeager content on every gun channel now for the next few days.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

23 hours ago, Donward said:

 

Indeed.

 

Especially when one made the mistake of not drying all of his cold weather work clothes and I'm still sitting in my Tied-inspired Under Armour running pants that I use as leisure clothes, waiting for them to dry, drinking coffee and arguing with TFB commenters who insist that Appendix carry isn't fucking stupid.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/#disqus_thread

Why is it bad? Just curious for your view.

[Sturgeon]

On 12/6/2017 at 2:14 PM, Donward said:

 

Indeed.

 

Especially when one made the mistake of not drying all of his cold weather work clothes and I'm still sitting in my Tied-inspired Under Armour running pants that I use as leisure clothes, waiting for them to dry, drinking coffee and arguing with TFB commenters who insist that Appendix carry isn't fucking stupid.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/#disqus_thread

 

It amuses me that there are people who think both that it's retarded and that it's The Only Way to Carry.

 

Well... It's neither.

[Meplat]

3 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

 

It amuses me that there are people who think both that it's retarded and that it's The Only Way to Carry.

 

Well... It's neither.

Good way to blow your twig and berries all to hell.