The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Sturgeon]

Max probably has a better position than I do with regards to the term "assault rifle". Basically, it's a stupid term and we should get rid of it.

I guess I would rather wring people out and let all the silly pedantry drip off, but really being smug about it's meaninglessness is likely the better strategy.

[Donward]

It's usefulness is as a quick shorthand term to describe a weapon of a certain appearance and function.

It's like if I said a certain dinosaur looks like a brontosaurus even though that name is incorrect scientifically.

Or it's like describing a certain automobile as a "muscle car" and calling the Pontiac GTO the first muscle car.

[Sorryfurher]

You seem to have forgotten that this is my forum, not yours. Let me remind you.

Oh, and for the record, the reason I'm giving you a temp ban is because you're being a delusional little shitdick.

 

Yes, Sorry my furher, I'll never question you again, how dare anyone mentions that Sturgeon could be wrong?!

 

Give me a fucking break, the reason you have me a temp ban is you apparently want to be an impotent little manchild who gets mad when your little reflection arguments backfire (clearly I should sit by and do nothing though when you flat out make shit up about what I said) rather then an actual admin, people have said far worse shit here, but I guess it's totally not cool when it's to you though.

 

Nice job talking shit after you banned me by the way, that's a level below being a fucking two faced piece of shit that you actually deserve to have your nose broken over. (I'll never ban again, sorry for using you as my guinea pig, nice you're so eager to turn on your own statements so quickly.)

 

I've fucking had it, this is a fucking disgrace, thank you for showing me your true character.

 

[Sturgeon]

Yeah, you're IP banned now. Hope that was what you were going for.

[Brick Fight]

Max probably has a better position than I do with regards to the term "assault rifle". Basically, it's a stupid term and we should get rid of it.

I guess I would rather wring people out and let all the silly pedantry drip off, but really being smug about it's meaninglessness is likely the better strategy.

 

Everyone says this, but nobody ponies up. I'm gonna toss a few out there right now. We've got rifles that are to be accurate, fully-automatic, lightweight (ideally under 9 lbs.). They are general-issue for combat, security, patrol. They are carried by frontline soldiers, rear echolon security and service personnel, and by troops in non-combat zones like aid missions and the like. The new word should describe its features, its intended use, and capture its prevalence.

 

-Service rifle: No nation is using Mosins and Garands as their main armament, and things like M14s and other EBRs are outnumbered by a large factor. I like to think that if we're talking about Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, if someone says "service rifle." we've provided enough context for what we're talking about. So if some pedantic turd says "what do you mean service rifle? It doesn't narrow it down beyond Krag, Garand..." we'd have probable cause to slap them in the mouth. It also sounds proper and separates military from civilian, so the internet commentor crowd don't have to die on that fucking hill they've been camping on. Unfortunately would be hard to lump really early stuff like the Fedorov with the term.

 

-Auto rifle: Simple and to the point. These rifles are just as accurate, if not more-so than their ancestors. Except now they all have fully automatic capabilities. Why not just acknowledge their distinctions? Also the distinct description bonus of "service rifle," but easier to grandfather in older rifles. Con: May cause confusion with semi-auto rifles.

[Tied]

I don't even hold 10mm auto in a sacred place, but saying it performs mostly the same (without context the first time) as .40 S&W was just flat out wrong.

Also, there's a pretty big contradiction in saying "Oh, all pistol rounds suck so it doesn't matter, but buy a 9mm because anything else is wrong."

If anything, you seem to be the one obsessed with a particular round, not me, how often do you see me make posts deriding 9mm Luger, or really any pistol rounds aside from actually retarded shit like .50 GI?

No. Buy a 9mm because of capacity. Which is the most important thing for a handgun to have

[Tied]

Max probably has a better position than I do with regards to the term "assault rifle". Basically, it's a stupid term and we should get rid of it.

I guess I would rather wring people out and let all the silly pedantry drip off, but really being smug about it's meaninglessness is likely the better strategy.

I like it and feel it never fails to describe modern automatics. Espically for the ones i run into and use

It only really fails when hunks start to apply it to carbines to piss off wehraboo fanboys and turn around a say "look see! I told you its an outdated term!"

*Retarded Grin*

*Chugs vodka*

*passes out*

[LoooSeR]

Iraqi SFs

 

 

 

Ali Al-Ghostidi

[Belesarius]

In the comments, Max mentions having to shoot at Calvary as a thing... We forget about that these days.

[Sturgeon]

And then later balloons, early AFVs, early aircraft.

Lots of good reasons for the .30 Cal Golden Era.

[Vanagandr]

Iraqi SFs

That MLG patch

[Sturgeon]

Max Popenker in 1994:
 

[Sturgeon]

This is a cool rifle:

 

[Collimatrix]

In the comments, Max mentions having to shoot at Calvary as a thing... We forget about that these days.

 

That's also part of why combat rifles stayed as huge as they did.  You never knew when you were going to have to hang bayonets off the end, form a square and repel a cavalry charge.  There were successful cavalry actions as late as the 1921 Polish-Soviet war, so this wasn't entirely unreasonable.

 

European armies were super into bayonets into the 1930s, arguably long after their combat utility had passed.  But, at least until the Great War, I don't think that this was simply a result of their officer class being inbred as usual.  It was the usual story of trying to gear up to fight the last war and learning exactly the wrong lessons from them.  Colonial powers actually experienced a lot of hand to hand fighting when they were putting down rebellions, mainly against people armed with dried grass and several rifles.  In particular, during the Mahdi uprising in the Sudan the British faced sword-armed warriors who actually beat them with cold steel against rifles.  They'd actually been (correctly) convinced that bayonets and swords were on the way out prior to that, but quickly re-emphasized swords and bayonets after that.  Matt Easton has more:

And of course Rudyard Kipling:

[D.E. Watters]

A friend of mine in SC had two.  One was in .308 Win, and the other was the uber rare .30-06 variant.
 

This is a cool rifle:

 

[cm_kruger]

That's also part of why combat rifles stayed as huge as they did.  You never knew when you were going to have to hang bayonets off the end, form a square and repel a cavalry charge.  There were successful cavalry actions as late as the 1921 Polish-Soviet war, so this wasn't entirely unreasonable.

 

European armies were super into bayonets into the 1930s, arguably long after their combat utility had passed.  But, at least until the Great War, I don't think that this was simply a result of their officer class being inbred as usual.  It was the usual story of trying to gear up to fight the last war and learning exactly the wrong lessons from them.  Colonial powers actually experienced a lot of hand to hand fighting when they were putting down rebellions, mainly against people armed with dried grass and several rifles.  In particular, during the Mahdi uprising in the Sudan the British faced sword-armed warriors who actually beat them with cold steel against rifles.  They'd actually been (correctly) convinced that bayonets and swords were on the way out prior to that, but quickly re-emphasized swords and bayonets after that.  Matt Easton has more:

 

 

There's also plenty of moronic sperging over bayonets by poet officers and armchair psychologists about the ~warrior soul~ and how it "increases aggressiveness" and "makes soldiers into better killers" and so on.

http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/papers/bayonet.htm

 

 

Even the claim of bayonet enthusiasts that it is a psychological weapon of singular importance is doubtful. The charge of infantry, à la bayonet, was usually delivered at the point where the defeat of an enemy was turning to rout. The bayonet charge was not, as it is often immortalized, the singular defining act of victory, it was, however, the act ordered by the general at the turning point of that victory. The bayonet charge, therefore, became so firmly entrenched in the minds of soldiers and observers as the defining act, rather than a dictated result of triumph, that to "get in" with the bayonet was seen as a means to success. Even in 1950, an article in the US Army Infantry School Quarterly encouraged: "Let us reinstate cold steel as the symbol of final assault, even though bullets rightly do most of the killing." (30)

 

 

A more Freudian analysis of the bayonet's continued appeal would likely perceive the bayonet as a phallic and manly symbol, (45) boldly thrust into its victim to achieve dominance. This conception is not out of line with Dixon's discussions of those personalities that are attracted to the military and dedicate themselves to maintaining traditions unchanged. As a symbol of masculinity in a predominantly male society, the bayonet has been assured of longevity beyond rationale.

[Vanagandr]

Let's be real though; Freud was a nincompoop. 

[Tied]

Ya

[Toxn]

The bayonet: perfect for when you've run out of artillery, air support, armour support, rockets, grenades, machinegun ammunition, rifle ammunition and pistol ammunition.

[Belesarius]

The bayonet: perfect for when you've run out of artillery, air support, armour support, rockets, grenades, machinegun ammunition, rifle ammunition and pistol ammunition.

And yet we still plan for that...  OCD, the military has it.

 

Edit: The real value these days in a bayonet is its use as a multi-tool with a bigger blade.  I mean, make the handle of a 6-8 inch survival knife a digitally sculptured, 3d laser sintered multi-tool... and you are getting into some pretty epic survival gear,

[Bronezhilet]

The bayonet: perfect for when you and your buddies have run out of artillery, air support, armour support, rockets, grenades, machinegun ammunition, rifle ammunition and pistol ammunition.

FTFY

[Toxn]

FTFY

Thanks

[Toxn]

And yet we still plan for that...  OCD, the military has it.

 

Edit: The real value these days in a bayonet is its use as a multi-tool with a bigger blade.  I mean, make the handle of a 6-8 inch survival knife a digitally sculptured, 3d laser sintered multi-tool... and you are getting into some pretty epic survival gear,

Alternate version:

 

The bayonet: for when a rock is too little, but a bullet is too much.

[Donward]

Bayonets are pretty handy when herding Italian and German prisoners.

[Toxn]

Bayonets are pretty handy when herding Italian and German prisoners.

Also handy: rifle, pistol, knife, truncheon, assegai, dog, hand signals.