The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[LoooSeR]

[Collimatrix]

Ukrainian-made Tavor, probably rebel's trophy

 

 

 

Pretty sure that's airsoft.  There is no texturing on the handguard or the pistol grip.  I suppose someone could have melted that off with acetone, but why would you do that?  The selector lever is on the same side as the ejection port.  You could do that with a real tavor, but it would be stupid; for your dominant hand's thumb to be able to activate the selector lever your face would have to be covering the ejection port when the rifle was shouldered.  There's no laser activation switch on the handguard, there's no modular plug on the pistol grip where the optional bipod fits, and the case deflector attachment point behind the blocked-off ejection port has two while all pictures of real tavors I can find show three screw holes there.  Additionally, you can't see the charging handle actuator rod through the receiver ventilation holes, which could be from lighting, but you usually can see it.  Finally, that magazine looks fake.  The overwhelming majority of M16-compatible magazines have a distinct kink about halfway up the body; they don't have a constant curvature the way AK magazine do:

 

 

And, as you can see, the floorplate retaining system on most AR-15 magazines is different and lacks those little stamped-in bosses at the bottom.

[Khand-e]

Well considering the state of Ukraine, are we sure they haven't switched to airsoft guns for budget reasons at this point?

[Meplat]

Pretty sure that's airsoft.  There is no texturing on the handguard or the pistol grip.  I suppose someone could have melted that off with acetone, but why would you do that?  The selector lever is on the same side as the ejection port.  You could do that with a real tavor, but it would be stupid; for your dominant hand's thumb to be able to activate the selector lever your face would have to be covering the ejection port when the rifle was shouldered.  There's no laser activation switch on the handguard, there's no modular plug on the pistol grip where the optional bipod fits, and the case deflector attachment point behind the blocked-off ejection port has two while all pictures of real tavors I can find show three screw holes there.  Additionally, you can't see the charging handle actuator rod through the receiver ventilation holes, which could be from lighting, but you usually can see it.  Finally, that magazine looks fake.  The overwhelming majority of M16-compatible magazines have a distinct kink about halfway up the body; they don't have a constant curvature the way AK magazine do:

 

 

And, as you can see, the floorplate retaining system on most AR-15 magazines is different and lacks those little stamped-in bosses at the bottom.

There were constant-curve AR15/XM16 mags, but they make hen's teeth seem common, and the chances of them turning up there (in sufficient volume to issue) is slim to none.

[D.E. Watters]

I thought that the Fort-produced Tavors were chambered in 5.45x39mm.  The following link shows their 5.45mm-specific magazine.

http://www.fort.vn.ua/en/products/weapon-accessories/magazine-cal-545x39-mm.html

[Sturgeon]

Aw shit nig nog, Daniel just pwned you.

I was gonna, but work and stuff.

[ApplesauceBandit]

My baby came in, and it's in really nice shape.  It looks unissued, though the bolt has certainly seen use.  The bolt's from Izhevsk, the knurling is worn down on the cocking nob and it's got some patina, but the serial numbers match and seems to work just fine from sliding it around.  The magazine has a slight patina to it as well.  The wood looks brand new, and I've only found two tiny dings in it from storage.  Bore looks well kept and the inside looks brand new.  Serial number is 66646 and it's a VKT with the receiver dated at 1944.  There's a whole bunch of random letters and markers on different parts too, but it's a Finnish Mosin.  It's SA marked like in this pic (not mine):

 

Really happy with what I got and I'll take it out shooting some tomorrow with some friends.  My birthday is on the 24th as well, so it's kind of a gift from me to me in a way as well.  I can take some better pictures tomorrow since my cell phone is refusing to take respectable pictures with the lighting this time of day.

 

The one downside of the M39 is you're never going to find a bayonet for the bastard.  Sad, but worth it.

 

[LoooSeR]

Germans in Senegal. Are those ballistic masks?

[LoooSeR]

[LoooSeR]

Russian Natinal guards (in process of creation) PR video screengrabs.

(spoiler attempt №2125)

 

 

 

EDIT: spoiler failer №2125.

[Khand-e]

My baby came in, and it's in really nice shape.  It looks unissued, though the bolt has certainly seen use.  The bolt's from Izhevsk, the knurling is worn down on the cocking nob and it's got some patina, but the serial numbers match and seems to work just fine from sliding it around.  The magazine has a slight patina to it as well.  The wood looks brand new, and I've only found two tiny dings in it from storage.  Bore looks well kept and the inside looks brand new.  Serial number is 66646 and it's a VKT with the receiver dated at 1944.  There's a whole bunch of random letters and markers on different parts too, but it's a Finnish Mosin.  It's SA marked like in this pic (not mine):

 

Really happy with what I got and I'll take it out shooting some tomorrow with some friends.  My birthday is on the 24th as well, so it's kind of a gift from me to me in a way as well.  I can take some better pictures tomorrow since my cell phone is refusing to take respectable pictures with the lighting this time of day.

 

The one downside of the M39 is you're never going to find a bayonet for the bastard.  Sad, but worth it.

 

 

When I was visiting relatives in the west last year, I was at Cabelas and they literally had at least a dozen spike type M91/30 bayonets for Mosins in the bargain cave.

 

Finding a dedicated Finnish bayonet like an M27 may prove harder, but pig stickers are easy as hell to find and should fit if you're willing to fuck with the rifle a bit (the Finns even used captured ones for their rifles.)

[ApplesauceBandit]

I did get to take it down to the range, and some friends brought a couple of their (shitty) Mosins too.  I sadly have no pictures, but we had 3 total if you include mine.  I think the other two were the usual Soviet M91/30, though they didn't keep their Mosins in good shape.  In their defense, they both got theirs as $70 guns to do stupid stuff with, but they still aren't nice to the things.  The bores on both probably look like a moonscape, and one of the guys used brake cleaner on his after we shot.  One has a plastic pistol grip screwed in behind the trigger and a muzzle brake at the end, the other missing the front sight post.  I remember one had a wobbly bolt and some other stuff.

 

Like I said, it's probably far from a fair comparison, but we all decided we liked the Finn one the most.  We were firing at targets 100 yards out or so and their Mosins couldn't hit shit, but mine went where I wanted it too.  I put about 30 rounds through mine and I really like it.  The trigger on it is really nice and smooth, plus it's easy to tell when it's going to shoot.  It's a nice fat bullet, so it's really satisfying to shoot.  Even just the looks of it I really like.  The wooden furniture has nice curves, plus the front iron sights look nice and beefy.  Just everything about the gun is nice, though it's a little heavier than most Mosins.

 

 

I really should try to get better pictures and put them in the gun porn thread, but I noticed it looked like aliens got to the bolt while I was taking it apart.  It is a Russian made Izhevsk bolt that was likely taken from a dead commie (the knurling on the cocking knob was worn down even more than other the other two shit sticks), but it still works just fine.  Anyone know what sort of space alien would leave all of those extra marks?

 

 

 

When I was visiting relatives in the west last year, I was at Cabelas and they literally had at least a dozen spike type M91/30 bayonets for Mosins in the bargain cave.

 

Finding a dedicated Finnish bayonet like an M27 may prove harder, but pig stickers are easy as hell to find and should fit if you're willing to fuck with the rifle a bit (the Finns even used captured ones for their rifles.)

One of the guys that I went with has a standard bayonet just sitting in a crate, so I may ask him about it in the future at some point.  I could try taking a Dremel to said bayonet, but that's assuming that this could even work in the first place.  The lug that keeps the bayonet on the M39 is actually on the bottom of the first barrel band.

 

[Sturgeon]

I did get to take it down to the range, and some friends brought a couple of their (shitty) Mosins too.  I sadly have no pictures, but we had 3 total if you include mine.  I think the other two were the usual Soviet M91/30, though they didn't keep their Mosins in good shape.  In their defense, they both got theirs as $70 guns to do stupid stuff with, but they still aren't nice to the things.  The bores on both probably look like a moonscape, and one of the guys used brake cleaner on his after we shot.  One has a plastic pistol grip screwed in behind the trigger and a muzzle brake at the end, the other missing the front sight post.  I remember one had a wobbly bolt and some other stuff.

 

Like I said, it's probably far from a fair comparison, but we all decided we liked the Finn one the most.  We were firing at targets 100 yards out or so and their Mosins couldn't hit shit, but mine went where I wanted it too.  I put about 30 rounds through mine and I really like it.  The trigger on it is really nice and smooth, plus it's easy to tell when it's going to shoot.  It's a nice fat bullet, so it's really satisfying to shoot.  Even just the looks of it I really like.  The wooden furniture has nice curves, plus the front iron sights look nice and beefy.  Just everything about the gun is nice, though it's a little heavier than most Mosins.

 

 

I really should try to get better pictures and put them in the gun porn thread, but I noticed it looked like aliens got to the bolt while I was taking it apart.  It is a Russian made Izhevsk bolt that was likely taken from a dead commie (the knurling on the cocking knob was worn down even more than other the other two shit sticks), but it still works just fine.  Anyone know what sort of space alien would leave all of those extra marks?

 

 

 

One of the guys that I went with has a standard bayonet just sitting in a crate, so I may ask him about it in the future at some point.  I could try taking a Dremel to said bayonet, but that's assuming that this could even work in the first place.  The lug that keeps the bayonet on the M39 is actually on the bottom of the first barrel band.

 

 

Can confirm, the Finn I got has a really superb trigger. Up there with my m/96 Swede. Really great milsurp trigger.

My girlfriend likes the M39 better (not having shot it) than my No. 4. She thinks it's a lighter more practical gun than the Lee. I kinda agree, based on ammo availability and general handiness. The M39 balances great, although like anything in its class it is pretty heavy all the same.

I think the thing I like about it the most is that it's the ONLY "universal" Mosin variant that I know of.

Now let's see how many people know what I mean by that!

[Khand-e]

I did get to take it down to the range, and some friends brought a couple of their (shitty) Mosins too.  I sadly have no pictures, but we had 3 total if you include mine.  I think the other two were the usual Soviet M91/30, though they didn't keep their Mosins in good shape.  In their defense, they both got theirs as $70 guns to do stupid stuff with, but they still aren't nice to the things.  The bores on both probably look like a moonscape, and one of the guys used brake cleaner on his after we shot.  One has a plastic pistol grip screwed in behind the trigger and a muzzle brake at the end, the other missing the front sight post.  I remember one had a wobbly bolt and some other stuff.

 

Like I said, it's probably far from a fair comparison, but we all decided we liked the Finn one the most.  We were firing at targets 100 yards out or so and their Mosins couldn't hit shit, but mine went where I wanted it too.  I put about 30 rounds through mine and I really like it.  The trigger on it is really nice and smooth, plus it's easy to tell when it's going to shoot.  It's a nice fat bullet, so it's really satisfying to shoot.  Even just the looks of it I really like.  The wooden furniture has nice curves, plus the front iron sights look nice and beefy.  Just everything about the gun is nice, though it's a little heavier than most Mosins.

 

 

I really should try to get better pictures and put them in the gun porn thread, but I noticed it looked like aliens got to the bolt while I was taking it apart.  It is a Russian made Izhevsk bolt that was likely taken from a dead commie (the knurling on the cocking knob was worn down even more than other the other two shit sticks), but it still works just fine.  Anyone know what sort of space alien would leave all of those extra marks?

 

 

 

One of the guys that I went with has a standard bayonet just sitting in a crate, so I may ask him about it in the future at some point.  I could try taking a Dremel to said bayonet, but that's assuming that this could even work in the first place.  The lug that keeps the bayonet on the M39 is actually on the bottom of the first barrel band.

 

 

By the way, if you used that Surplus ammunition from earlier, do yourself a favor and scrub the shit out of the internals of your gun with ammonia asap, Surplus ammunition for 7.62x54mmR is basically 100% of the time corrosive primed.

 

For reference, corrosive primers are still used sometimes as they last longer when stored in harsh conditions or over long periods of time, but you do need to be extra careful when cleaning your weapon after using them, mainly after extended periods.

 

Make sure no water or moisture is inside or stays inside, corrosive primers usually leave behind Table Salt and Potassium Chloride, and, I don't think I have to tell you what salt water does to metal parts.

[ApplesauceBandit]

By the way, if you used that Surplus ammunition from earlier, do yourself a favor and scrub the shit out of the internals of your gun with ammonia asap, Surplus ammunition for 7.62x54mmR is basically 100% of the time corrosive primed.

For reference, corrosive primers are still used sometimes as they last longer when stored in harsh conditions or over long periods of time, but you do need to be extra careful when cleaning your weapon after using them, mainly after extended periods.

Make sure no water or moisture is inside or stays inside, corrosive primers usually leave behind Salt and Potassium Chloride, and, I don't think I have to tell you what salt water does to metal parts.

First thing I did when I got back was get out all of that gunk. I used some of that hoppe's solvent on it, let that sit a little, then wiped it out.

I'm typing from my phone since I'm actually taking the bolt all the way apart right now, though I don't think I'll be able to do the same tonight with the rest of the gun which won't be an issue.

Would you recommend that I let these bolt parts soak overnight in ammonia or some other cleaner? I still haven't cleaned my gun as thoroughly as I would have originally liked, but I'm not going shooting for the next few days anyway.

And before I get back to fiddling with this, anyone have ammo they'd recommend for the range? I won't be able to buy a spam can with my budget right now, since the bedt I can find one for is $175.

[Khand-e]

Just wipe down everything really thoroughly, (mainly the bolt face, but really all the internal components) of any residue or foreign matter you see, and mainly moisture. Potassium Chloride is similar to table salt, only it obviously swaps the sodium for potassium which is an even "stronger" alkali, check all the nooks and crevices to make sure none builds up anywhere at all.

[Khand-e]

Also, outside of Surplus, the cheapest you'll see commonly is PPU or Herter's brand, Wolf used to be alot more common but that shit sells insanely fast now. there is one brand called Tulammo (named after the Tula ammunition plant in Russia, it used to just be named Tula) that sells 7.62x54mmR for less then 50 cents a round, but this is a problem because 1. it's fairly uncommon and 2. It's jacket is magnetic, which is something indoor ranges will bitch about usually, so you need to check where you use this.

 

Other cheap brands you may run across are Red Army Standard (imported by century arms, use at your own risk) and Brown Bear, both of which also use a bimetal jacket that will usually stick to most magnets.

[ApplesauceBandit]

The range I've always gone to is a free outdoors one, so magnetic cases aren't an issue.  Actually, non-brass cases would almost be something I'd prefer in a way.  There's this one guy who's always at the range picking up brass to sell and he's harassed several of my gun pals on several occasions about how they really should shoot brass instead of steel (so he can pick it up and sell it).  He doesn't even work for the park, so now we shoot non-brass cases as much as possible to mess with the guy. 

 

I guess a better question for me to ask is would there be any ammo brands to avoid for my Mosin?  I figure any that people will have on their shelves here is going to be stuff that works. 

 

I knew pretty much all the Soviet surplus ammo is going to have corrosive primers, but after cleaning out the bolt, I think I'll stick with non-corrosive now.  It looks to me like the previous owner of that bolt didn't usually take the firing pin out of the bolt while cleaning, because the part with the spring over it has some minor pitting, but it didn't have any impact on performance at all.  While it is minor, it does show me what will happen if I dare get lazy with cleaning after shooting commie bullets.

 

I didn't actually take the receiver and magazine out of the stock, but I reached around in there with some cleaning stuff and I feel I hit all the parts that I would need to hit, and maybe a little extra.  My bolt is a lot more shiny now that I've gotten a lot of the little gunk bits off it, plus it is a lot smoother.  I just need to wait for my cleaning kit to come in so I have that handy little firing pin tool in it.  I got by today with doing it by hand with unscrewing it from the cocking knob, but that's a pain in the butt.

 

 

Anyone have any ideas why my bolt is covered in random stampings on that area?

 

Also, before I go off to bed, beyond checking the firing pin depth or not putting pipe bombs in the gun, is there anything else I should do to avoid things like this?

[Collimatrix]

Re: corrosive primers

 

The problem with the residue they leave is that it attracts water.  Like Mech said, the ingredient that causes the trouble is the oxidizer potassium chlorate, which during ignition partially converts into potassium chloride; a salt that has such a powerful affinity for water that it will suck it out of the atmosphere and form a salt water mixture that sits on top of the steel.  Which also means that the residue they leave is water-soluble.

 

Any sort of "formula" for getting rid of corrosive primer residue will likely be water-based.  That is to say, the active ingredient in them is water.  You don't need anything particularly fancy to get rid of the stuff.  Hatcher's Notebook goes into greater detail.  There were a number of gun-cleaner recipes at the time that were mostly water with a bit of water-soluble oil (like sulfated castor oil) so that they left a reassuring oily residue once removed.

 

Truth be told though, if you need to clean out corrosive residue you can use regular water, provided you get the gun completely dry after you're done.  Regular water is not a particularly effective solvent against powder residue fouling or against metal fouling, but as Hatcher's Notebook exhaustively documents, those things do not cause corrosion.

 

I thought that the Fort-produced Tavors were chambered in 5.45x39mm.  The following link shows their 5.45mm-specific magazine.

http://www.fort.vn.ua/en/products/weapon-accessories/magazine-cal-545x39-mm.html

 

Learn something every day!  Thanks!

[Alex C.]

I just use a cup of hot water and a transmission funnel. No big deal.

I know many people who are so afraid of corrosive ammo that they will bend over backwards to get rid of it for pennies on the dollar if they receive it in a trade or something.

[Alex C.]

Also this.

 

75 years later and we still have not improved upon the assault rifle:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvji2mh5k2M&feature=youtu.be

[Khand-e]

The range I've always gone to is a free outdoors one, so magnetic cases aren't an issue.  Actually, non-brass cases would almost be something I'd prefer in a way.  There's this one guy who's always at the range picking up brass to sell and he's harassed several of my gun pals on several occasions about how they really should shoot brass instead of steel (so he can pick it up and sell it).  He doesn't even work for the park, so now we shoot non-brass cases as much as possible to mess with the guy. 

 

I guess a better question for me to ask is would there be any ammo brands to avoid for my Mosin?  I figure any that people will have on their shelves here is going to be stuff that works. 

 

I knew pretty much all the Soviet surplus ammo is going to have corrosive primers, but after cleaning out the bolt, I think I'll stick with non-corrosive now.  It looks to me like the previous owner of that bolt didn't usually take the firing pin out of the bolt while cleaning, because the part with the spring over it has some minor pitting, but it didn't have any impact on performance at all.  While it is minor, it does show me what will happen if I dare get lazy with cleaning after shooting commie bullets.

 

I didn't actually take the receiver and magazine out of the stock, but I reached around in there with some cleaning stuff and I feel I hit all the parts that I would need to hit, and maybe a little extra.  My bolt is a lot more shiny now that I've gotten a lot of the little gunk bits off it, plus it is a lot smoother.  I just need to wait for my cleaning kit to come in so I have that handy little firing pin tool in it.  I got by today with doing it by hand with unscrewing it from the cocking knob, but that's a pain in the butt.

 

 

Anyone have any ideas why my bolt is covered in random stampings on that area?

 

Also, before I go off to bed, beyond checking the firing pin depth or not putting pipe bombs in the gun, is there anything else I should do to avoid things like this?

 

For what It's worth, it's not actually the casings they mind in this case, but the jacket of the bullet itself (a bimetal jacket usually refers to a steel/copper jacket, though other types are seen), basically there used to be a misconception that bimetal jackets are physically harder to the point they can damage backstops, however this is mostly horseshit as the jacket would need to be insanely hard and unusually thick to the point it would also severely damage the rifling of a gun barrel to do anything of the sort and possibly prevent the rifling from properly engaging the bullet.

 

However, there is a plausible chance you can get a bullet with a steel core instead, mainly out of surplus, which will obviously also stick to a magnet, these on other hand plausibly could damage a backstop as even a relatively soft steel alloy is significantly harder then lead, or in the rare chance you somehow get a surplus AP round without realizing it (It's pretty hard to not notice though, AP rounds will pretty much always be painted with a black tip to mark them as such, or silver/black with a red band painted beneath for API) that could infact live up to a range owners fears of cratering their backstops or even penetrating one after enough hits are made on it.

 

Basically, It does seem stupid to check for bimetal jacketed bullets that in reality won't change much, but while most range masters these days understand the jacket won't really cause problems, many still won't take the chance that it's just the jacket the magnet is sticking to.

[Sturgeon]

Checking for wifi on the floor of NRA 2016:

[Khand-e]

Hey, I've been to Trinidad, Colorado, fuck that's really near the border of New Mexico memory serve me.

 

Also nice alternate history group mang.

[Sturgeon]

Hey, I've been to Trinidad, Colorado, fuck that's really near the border of New Mexico memory serve me.

 

Also nice alternate history group mang.

 

The althist group is a modeling group, they send neat stuff to my feed from time to time.

Yes, I lived in Trinidad for a while, but thankfully no longer as its a shithole.