politics Post Election Thread: Democracy Dies In Darkness And You Can Help

[Sturgeon]

4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Yeah, in our area it's never been quite the same since Lockheed Martin took over the administration.....Cheers for that America.  

 

 

Pfft, who else was gonna run it? Boeing? BAe? XD

[Bronezhilet]

Sturg, if you considered the Brits disarmed, then what are the Dutch? Dismembered?

[Toxn]

3 hours ago, T___A said:

lol the NHS is a much bigger disaster than our healthcare system is by a mile. 

Had much first-hand experience? Lot's of comparative data?

 

Dude, you just posted on the other side of this argument.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

Pfft, who else was gonna run it? Boeing? BAe? XD

 

Dunno if it's still the case, but Dassault Systems used to supply our water.....Supplying water in England, talk about money for old rope. 

 

This sums up the British perspective on the US 'health system' pretty well:

 

 

Unless you've lived under a comprehensive cradle to grave healthcare system I'd imagine it's somewhat hard to comprehend just what a bloody marvellous thing it is.....If however you were born into such a system, the alternative appears utterly incomprehensible, borderline third-world even. 

 

[Sturgeon]

8 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 

Dunno if it's still the case, but Dassault Systems used to supply our water.....Supplying water in England, talk about money for old rope. 

 

This sums up the British perspective on the US 'health system' pretty well:

 

 

Unless you've lived under a comprehensive cradle to grave healthcare system I'd imagine it's somewhat hard to comprehend just what a bloody marvellous thing it is.....If however you were born into such a system, the alternative appears utterly incomprehensible, borderline third-world even. 

 

 

millenial propaganda video get out

[Sturgeon]

11 hours ago, Bronezhilet said:

Sturg, if you considered the Brits disarmed, then what are the Dutch? Dismembered?

 

It's OK, I know you Euros (with a couple exceptions, like Serbia and the Scandinavian countries) really have no idea what American gun ownership looks like, so I'll lay it out for you. Let's start with some simple figures. The UK has one of the lowest guns/capita rates in Western Europe at 6.6 guns per 100 residents. The Netherlands has 3.9 guns per 100, and the exceptional European states of Lithuania and Romania have a guns/capita rate of less than 1 per 100. Germany, Iceland, Austria, France, Norway, Sweden, and Finland all have guns/capita rates between 25 and 35 per 100. Spain, Malta, Italy, Denmark, Armenia, Slovenia, Luxembourg, the Czech Republic, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Latvia, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Switzerland all have rates of between 10 and 25 guns per 100 residents. So the median guns/capita rate for a European country is 12 guns per 100, and the UK is not even in the second fourth of that distribution. The average guns/capita rate in Europe would be difficult to calculate, but it is probably around 20 per 100, given the countries listed and their populations. The UK has less than a third of that.

 

Just for comparison, the world (including almost gun-free Asia - which is, you know, most of it) guns/capita rate is 10.2 per 100. So the UK is below the world average, even.

By world standards, the UK is a "low gun" country. By European standards, it's a gun desert. Just for reference, here's a handy map showing gun ownership in Europe:

 

 

This uses different numbers, but the numbers look like they're roughly proportional to the ones Wikipedia cites. Note that the UK has that low 6.6/100 figure.

Now, America?

We have somewhere north of 110 guns per 100 residents. Wikipedia says 112, but these things are almost always underestimated for a couple of reasons (1, US gun owners are paranoid and like to report they don't own guns, 2, US gun ownership is climbing fast). It is possible the US has 2 or 3 guns for every person in the country.  We have a gun/capita rate that is conservatively 20 times that of the UK's.

 

In the UK, a "gun owner" is someone who owns a shotgun or two. There's nothing wrong with that, and I am not saying these people shouldn't "count", but in the US it's completely different. I cannot tell you how many times I have had a conversation with someone where they said "I don't own guns. I don't like guns." "You don't own any guns?" "Well, I mean besides my shotguns and .22..." In the US, it is common for "non gun owners" to own multiple firearms, paradoxical as that sounds. Our "gun owners" are often people like me, who have owned 15+ firearms ever since they were 20.

 

Even in European countries like Germany, gun ownership is characterized extremely differently. It's something more like being a car fanatic or a collector of fine art. I have had to explain to European gun manufacturers that the US market is completely different. Your average European hunting rifle, for example, will cost well over $1,000 (equivalent). Your average American hunting rifle will cost less than $200. The American gun market is one that every bracket and class participates in; it is not just something for rich, well-connected people.

 

So "if I consider the Brits disarmed, then what are the Dutch?" Also disarmed. The difference in your per capita gun ownership rate is negligible compared to the gulf between both of your per capita rates and the US's. We own guns. Lots and lots and lots of guns. An absolutely staggering number of guns. In my lifetime, I have probably owned over 50 different firearms, and I'm not that weird. Almost everyone in the US has at least shot a gun at some point in their lives (we have lots of "never shot a gun before" types, but just like "I don't own guns" this usually means "I shot a .22 when I was a kid"). It's likely that most people in the US own guns, or close to most (our polls say it's between 30-40% of people, but again gun ownership is typically under reported).

 

This doesn't make Americans "better" than Britons or the Dutch or anyone else (although it arguably makes America a better place to live if you like guns), nor does it mean we "own" guns as a subject and therefore no one else can talk about them. That's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying we own fuckloads of guns and I don't think you truly understand just how many guns we own because it really truly is a ridiculous amount that would make your eyes pop out of your head if you really knew. Yamamoto's apocryphal quote about there being a "rifle behind every blade of grass" in the US is barely an exaggeration.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Yeah, hell, I own eight! I've sold off a bunch too as things got tight... I still have my Garand and a pair of trust .45 1911s, cause you know, AMERICA!

 

Now really blow his mind Sturg, and tell him how easy it is to own a machine gun in texas, or a fucking tank with working machine guns and main gun!@!

 

 

 

 

[Sturgeon]

25 minutes ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

Yeah, hell, I own eight! I've sold off a bunch too as things got tight... I still have my Garand and a pair of trust .45 1911s, cause you know, AMERICA!

 

Now really blow his mind Sturg, and tell him how easy it is to own a machine gun in texas, or a fucking tank with working machine guns and main gun!@!

 

Heh, owning a machine gun in the US is about as easy as owning a gun at all in the UK. However, the machine gun registry is closed, so they really are a rich man's game. I don't think it's likely, but maybe someday the Hughes Amendment will be repealed and we can go back to registering new machine guns.

 

Of course, with a little more work than it takes to get a firearms license in the UK, you can just become an SOT and deal all the modern machine guns you want. It's possible, but rare. 

[Sturgeon]

Here I am shooting an Uzi at targets from an ATV:
 

 

MURICA

[Ramlaen]

When so many people own guns that they actually get cheaper because the market is saturated.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Have to say those statistics are pretty staggering, the rest of it not so much.....I have relatives in Texas.   

 

I'm truly surprised at just how low the UK firearm ownership rates are, all the firearm owners I know locally in the UK own multiple (3+) firearms.....The fact that I live in a rural area might be a factor.

 

[Sturgeon]

12 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Have to say those statistics are pretty staggering, the rest of it not so much.....I have relatives in Texas.   

 

 

Well now you know why us Yanks think of the Brits as being "disarmed".

[ApplesauceBandit]

19 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Have to say those statistics are pretty staggering, the rest of it not so much.....I have relatives in Texas.   

 

And just imagine that despite the memes, Texas isn't even the most gun-happy state.  They don't even have constitutional carry there, bunch of losers they are.  I don't know how accurate this is since it was one of the first I pulled from google images, but I'm surprised that Hawaii is as high as it is with ownership.

 

[Walter_Sobchak]

Meanwhile, in Italy they had a parade.

 

 

[Sturgeon]

58 minutes ago, ApplesauceBandit said:

And just imagine that despite the memes, Texas isn't even the most gun-happy state.  They don't even have constitutional carry there, bunch of losers they are.  I don't know how accurate this is since it was one of the first I pulled from google images, but I'm surprised that Hawaii is as high as it is with ownership.

 

 

I doubt the numbers for Delaware, but not Rhode Island. Believe pretty much the rest, though.

[Priory_of_Sion]

21 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

I doubt the numbers for Delaware, but not Rhode Island. Believe pretty much the rest, though.

Would have guessed Hawaii's % would have been a tad lower, but I don't know much about Hawaii.

[Walter_Sobchak]

7 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

 

I doubt the numbers for Delaware, but not Rhode Island. Believe pretty much the rest, though.

Are those percentages for individuals or households?

[Sturgeon]

59 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

Are those percentages for individuals or households?

 

Not sure. Judging by the numbers for Alaska, maybe households?

[EnsignExpendable]

[SergeantMatt]

tbh I'm surprised Rhode Island is that low, pretty good share of the people I know have a few guns in their homes, and mine certainly does. I do live in the more rural western half though.

[Belesarius]

Urban Ontario the numbers would be pretty low.  Maybe 15-20 %ish for households.  Outside of urban Southern Ontario?  60-70% by households I would guess. Even if it's only a .22/.410 for pest control.

[EnsignExpendable]

Urban Ontario not counting Toronto, maybe. I doubt a fifth of the people here even touched a gun.

[Belesarius]

14 minutes ago, EnsignExpendable said:

Urban Ontario not counting Toronto, maybe. I doubt a fifth of the people here even touched a gun.

I think a lot of that is because there's no place to shoot. I don't own a firearm because I have no place to practice with one, and I don't drive, so safe transport outside the city is an issue.

[Bronezhilet]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:33 AM, Sturgeon said:

 

It's OK, I know you Euros (with a couple exceptions, like Serbia and the Scandinavian countries) really have no idea what American gun ownership looks like, so I'll lay it out for you. Let's start with some simple figures. The UK has one of the lowest guns/capita rates in Western Europe at 6.6 guns per 100 residents. The Netherlands has 3.9 guns per 100, and the exceptional European states of Lithuania and Romania have a guns/capita rate of less than 1 per 100. Germany, Iceland, Austria, France, Norway, Sweden, and Finland all have guns/capita rates between 25 and 35 per 100. Spain, Malta, Italy, Denmark, Armenia, Slovenia, Luxembourg, the Czech Republic, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Latvia, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Switzerland all have rates of between 10 and 25 guns per 100 residents. So the median guns/capita rate for a European country is 12 guns per 100, and the UK is not even in the second fourth of that distribution. The average guns/capita rate in Europe would be difficult to calculate, but it is probably around 20 per 100, given the countries listed and their populations. The UK has less than a third of that.

 

Just for comparison, the world (including almost gun-free Asia - which is, you know, most of it) guns/capita rate is 10.2 per 100. So the UK is below the world average, even.

By world standards, the UK is a "low gun" country. By European standards, it's a gun desert. Just for reference, here's a handy map showing gun ownership in Europe:

 

 

This uses different numbers, but the numbers look like they're roughly proportional to the ones Wikipedia cites. Note that the UK has that low 6.6/100 figure.

Now, America?

We have somewhere north of 110 guns per 100 residents. Wikipedia says 112, but these things are almost always underestimated for a couple of reasons (1, US gun owners are paranoid and like to report they don't own guns, 2, US gun ownership is climbing fast). It is possible the US has 2 or 3 guns for every person in the country.  We have a gun/capita rate that is conservatively 20 times that of the UK's.

 

In the UK, a "gun owner" is someone who owns a shotgun or two. There's nothing wrong with that, and I am not saying these people shouldn't "count", but in the US it's completely different. I cannot tell you how many times I have had a conversation with someone where they said "I don't own guns. I don't like guns." "You don't own any guns?" "Well, I mean besides my shotguns and .22..." In the US, it is common for "non gun owners" to own multiple firearms, paradoxical as that sounds. Our "gun owners" are often people like me, who have owned 15+ firearms ever since they were 20.

 

Even in European countries like Germany, gun ownership is characterized extremely differently. It's something more like being a car fanatic or a collector of fine art. I have had to explain to European gun manufacturers that the US market is completely different. Your average European hunting rifle, for example, will cost well over $1,000 (equivalent). Your average American hunting rifle will cost less than $200. The American gun market is one that every bracket and class participates in; it is not just something for rich, well-connected people.

 

So "if I consider the Brits disarmed, then what are the Dutch?" Also disarmed. The difference in your per capita gun ownership rate is negligible compared to the gulf between both of your per capita rates and the US's. We own guns. Lots and lots and lots of guns. An absolutely staggering number of guns. In my lifetime, I have probably owned over 50 different firearms, and I'm not that weird. Almost everyone in the US has at least shot a gun at some point in their lives (we have lots of "never shot a gun before" types, but just like "I don't own guns" this usually means "I shot a .22 when I was a kid"). It's likely that most people in the US own guns, or close to most (our polls say it's between 30-40% of people, but again gun ownership is typically under reported).

 

This doesn't make Americans "better" than Britons or the Dutch or anyone else (although it arguably makes America a better place to live if you like guns), nor does it mean we "own" guns as a subject and therefore no one else can talk about them. That's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying we own fuckloads of guns and I don't think you truly understand just how many guns we own because it really truly is a ridiculous amount that would make your eyes pop out of your head if you really knew. Yamamoto's apocryphal quote about there being a "rifle behind every blade of grass" in the US is barely an exaggeration.

Way to react serious to a joke, Sturg. 

[EnsignExpendable]

8 hours ago, Belesarius said:

I think a lot of that is because there's no place to shoot. I don't own a firearm because I have no place to practice with one, and I don't drive, so safe transport outside the city is an issue.

 

Yeah, the closest range worth a damn is Silverdale. At least there's a public archery range available.