politics Post Election Thread: Democracy Dies In Darkness And You Can Help

[Sturgeon]

34 minutes ago, Toxn said:

No mention of HBD/race realism?

 

I don't think a lot of people outside the pre Alt Right know about HBD, and this article wasn't very good. I think there was a throwaway line about "race realism", though.

[Toxn]

51 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

I don't think a lot of people outside the pre Alt Right know about HBD, and this article wasn't very good. I think there was a throwaway line about "race realism", though.

Pity; it's one of the things that I find genuinely distasteful about... well, the comment sections under any alt-right/neoreactionary article, really. I just cringe every time the word 'dysgenic' gets used.

 

I have not idea if the leading lights hold more nuanced or informed views.

[Sturgeon]

54 minutes ago, Toxn said:

Pity; it's one of the things that I find genuinely distasteful about... well, the comment sections under any alt-right/neoreactionary article, really. I just cringe every time the word 'dysgenic' gets used.

 

I have not idea if the leading lights hold more nuanced or informed views.

 

I am not sure. It's been a long time since I paid attention to that crowd... And I'm not even sure they're the same crowd anymore, by and large.

 

Once upon a time, "HBD" was only as racist as whatever author you were reading wanted it to be. In the proto Alt Right there were racists and Neo-Nazis and white supremacists of course - like there would be in any dingy corner of the Internet that deliberately shunned PC culture - but HBD was common to most writers, not just the ones who thought eugenics was a swell idea.

 

A distinct subset of the "HBD" types were people who didn't want race-related research or data to be artificially suppressed. Others were anti-egalitarians, but that often meant something different than how it probably sounds (it had more to do with meritocracy, rejection of PC culture, and not selling everyone a bill of goods about how perfect and special they all are - underwritten by a simple acknowledgement that people aren't equal in a physical or utilitarian sense). For those people, we're talking pretty benign stuff. Many of those would probably call themselves "race realists", but at the time that wasn't the dogwhistle it is now for "white nationalist". At the time, many people were trying to make "race realist" work as a definition between people who accepted genetically-correlated differences, and those who felt one race was superior or more worthy than the others. This was obviously a stupid idea.

 

Beyond that, you had what I'll call for lack of a better term "racial prescriptivists". These were folks who reckoned society worked better if races are treated differently, usually involving some sort of voluntary segregation or something. Their ideas were pretty racist, but in character they had more in common with utilitarians and consequentialists than white nationalists. They might present an argument like: homogeneous societies tend to function better with less violence than heterogeneous societies, ergo homogeneous society is preferred. Obviously, to normal people this sounds like a particularly dark brand of autism.

 

And of course beyond them, you had true racists of one degree or another. But I think they were collectively a minority, and they still appear to be within the Alt Right, very minor.

[Toxn]

Nice explanation - it's always much more useful to get something like a taxonomic approach rather than lumping everything into one basket.

 

Though, as you say, it's anyone's guess as to what groups there are and what they believe. Fractal subcultures being one of the hallmarks of the internet age, after all.

[Ramlaen]

I know the arguments but I have never heard of the HBD term before.

 

Alt-right and antifa have become umbrella labels for far right and far left ideologies.

[Ramlaen]

[Sturgeon]

17 hours ago, Toxn said:

Nice explanation - it's always much more useful to get something like a taxonomic approach rather than lumping everything into one basket.

 

Though, as you say, it's anyone's guess as to what groups there are and what they believe. Fractal subcultures being one of the hallmarks of the internet age, after all.

 

Lumping everyone who has even the tiniest bit questionable opinions into one basket is why we have Nazis in Charlottesville doing the Hitler salute right now.

[Belesarius]

45 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Lumping everyone who has even the tiniest bit questionable opinions into one basket is why we have Nazis in Charlottesville doing the Hitler salute right now.

Yeah, I've been having a lot of discussion about nuance with the main person I argue politics with.

 

[Sturgeon]

It turns out people are kind of naturally xenophobic scumbags, and if you don't give them any incentive to play nice they start denying the Holocaust and making excuses for chattel slavery and looking up to Adolf Hitler as a role model!

[Sturgeon]

It sort of goes like this:

"You know, I've noticed black people commit murder at a rate eight times higher than white people."

 

"That's racist."

"Right, well. I must be a racist then. I guess I should go build a shrine to Hitler, or something?"

 

Compressed for comedic effect, obviously, but this is how it actually works. People get tired of being called racists, and - somewhat paradoxically - a small but significant minority end up deciding to just take it all the way. Cuz why not, if acknowledging simple fact gets you 80% of the way there anyway? Shame does work on most people, but it doesn't work on some, and the important thing to remember is that that minority it doesn't work on is way, way larger than the previously extant number of racists in this country. So if you shame people aggressively like that, you end up increasing the number of outright racists, not decreasing them.

[Legiondude]

I think I'm a hairs breadth away from explaining to a few associates that even though they carry the tradition of a failed ideology they do have rights too as American citizens(provided they don't impede another's), and if there's a question on why these guys deserve rights even when they carry the wrong ideology in the first place then we're genuinely drifting into obliterating a core pillar of American stability

[Sturgeon]

Fucking truuuueeeeeee

 

[Legiondude]

Well since Asians are considered "sometimes white" by SJWs, then by twisted logic the answer would be "Yes"

[Ulric]

52 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

Fucking truuuueeeeeee

 

 

I can do you one better: Austrasian GF. Asian chick with an Australian accent!

[Toxn]

2 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

It sort of goes like this:

"You know, I've noticed black people commit murder at a rate eight times higher than white people."

 

"That's racist."

"Right, well. I must be a racist then. I guess I should go build a shrine to Hitler, or something?"

 

Compressed for comedic effect, obviously, but this is how it actually works. People get tired of being called racists, and - somewhat paradoxically - a small but significant minority end up deciding to just take it all the way. Cuz why not, if acknowledging simple fact gets you 80% of the way there anyway? Shame does work on most people, but it doesn't work on some, and the important thing to remember is that that minority it doesn't work on is way, way larger than the previously extant number of racists in this country. So if you shame people aggressively like that, you end up increasing the number of outright racists, not decreasing them.

True, but...

 

Coming from a country which was deeply and intentionally racist; I can't say that that's the only way to make a Nazi.

 

Our way was (sort of still is, in some places) to seperate people of different races (however you want to define them that day) and then make damn sure that the 'lower' race is only allowed to exist in the most degraded, servile state you can achieve and only interacts with the 'higher' race on that basis. Then point to the kids in your group (ignore the fact that your policy is effectively a massive affirmative action and government welfare campaign for them) and tell them that they're special, better and deserve their station in life.

 

Racism-racism (ie: the kind that almost everyone can agree on is racist) breeds where people of different creeds and cultures don't live amongst each other and never interact except at the end of weird power dynamics. Which is why gated communities, upmarket suburbs and the fucking EU have produced some of the most genuinely racist people I know.

 

Worse; many of them are convinced that they have no racial issues, for the simple reason that they've never had their beliefs challenged.

 

My $0.0014 (R0.02), of course.

[Toxn]

14 minutes ago, Ulric said:

 

I can do you one better: Austrasian GF. Asian chick with an Australian accent!

Australian accent = mood killer for me.

 

Caribbean accent, on the other hand...

[Sturgeon]

18 minutes ago, Toxn said:

Coming from a country which was deeply and intentionally racist; I can't say that that's the only way to make a Nazi.

 

I wasn't suggesting that. Given the history of and current culture in the USA, however, it's probably the best way to make Nazis in this country.

 

Agree with everything else you said.

[Ramlaen]

 

[Belesarius]

https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/08/14/merck-ceo-quits-trumps-council-due-to-presidents-refusal-to-denounce-white-supremacy-groups-in-charlottesville.html

[Ulric]

I love how everyone who already hates Trump is using this as an excuse to be offended at him and retaliate in some way.

 

As usual, the media picks up a story like Trump's comments and make up something to be offended about. Right on que senators and congressmen immediately start grovelling at their feet trying to win points with them by trashing Trump. These idiots will never learn that the media will never like them. John McCain is a great example. They media would elevate him whenever he would bash Bush, but as soon as he really for president, they turned around and shredded him.

[Donward]

So when do we get to be worked up and offended over and irrelevant incident that has absolutely zero bearing in any of our lives (99.999 percent of us at least) which can be blown out of proportion and used as a wedge issue to beat our political opponents to death?

 

I'm already bored of Charlottesville.

[Sturgeon]

There's something darkly poetic about people who want to pick a fight woth half the country tearing down statues that remind them of the last time the country fought itself.

[Ulric]

The left wants to erase history because they are constantly on the wrong side of it.

[Ulric]

We need a meme picture of ISIS smashing historical artifacts and lefties tearing down statues.

[Sturgeon]

An actual conversation I had on Imgur this morning:

 

TL;DR, I point out that calling people Nazis for no reason just makes more Nazis, then a guy proceeds to say everyone who reads Breitbart wants to commit genocide.
 

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shepahrdjhon via iPhone23 pts11 hr

While we condemn Nazis, can we also try to prevent people from becoming Nazis by hearing them out when they are hurting?

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RingoAteMyBaby7 pts9 hr

If being called a Nazi was all it took to make someone become a Nazi, then that person wasn't very far off it anyway.

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Olifant0 pts9 hr

Nobody's very far off it. That's the point.

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RingoAteMyBaby6 pts9 hr

I dunno about you, but I'm living pretty rough and I'm sure as hell not a stone's throw away from wishing genocide on others.

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Olifant-3 pts8 hr

All of human history people have been a bunch of tribalistic, xenophobic a-holes, but it's all good because you're better than that. OK.

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RingoAteMyBaby6 pts8 hr

Look, just because you think humanity is shit, doesn't mean it's as shit as you think it is. It doesn't make you clever to be a misanthrope.

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Olifant-2 pts8 hr

You. Are. Missing. The. Point. People need to be incentivized to be good. They are tribalistic, groupthinking animals, fundamentally. 1/2

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RingoAteMyBaby2 pts8 hr

Save your 2/2 because I don't need your ninth grade biotruths.

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RingoAteMyBaby2 pts8 hr

Save your 2/2 because I don't need your ninth grade biotruths.

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Olifant1 pt8 hr

Wow, "biotruths". You sound so smart!

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RingoAteMyBaby1 pt8 hr

Just in case the tone didn't come through, I was using the word to mock your arguments because I found them to be juvenile.

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EncrustedFapsock1 pt5 hr

Serious question, what did you find juvenile in his argument? Looking around me, his point seems to hold up pretty (disappointingly) well

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Olifant1 pt8 hr

You didn't even wait to hear my arguments, because you are an impatient baby.

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RingoAteMyBaby1 pt8 hr

It's rather I found your initial point to be disingenuous and your attempt to debate in bad faith, so I decided to have fun at your expense.

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Olifant1 pt8 hr

You did all that in 140 characters? Wow! I am so impressed! You lecture me on maturity, but you don't even know how to listen.

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RingoAteMyBaby1 pt8 hr

And I ain't lecturing you for shit. If I cared enough for you to improve yourself from this, you'd know it.

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RingoAteMyBaby1 pt8 hr

Why would I bother to listen to someone who is (as you went on to) about to cough up blather? Your argument was about your ego.

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Olifant1 pt8 hr

When all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. You have proven the same is true of a full colon, for some.

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RingoAteMyBaby1 pt8 hr

What are you even fucking on about? You're the one bending over backwards to excuse shitty behavior.

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Olifant1 pt8 hr

Can't you read? I just said you're full of shit. Maybe you can't. You shouldn't alienate people, because they might become Nazis, I said.

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Olifant1 pt8 hr

Anyway bro, I got juvenile things to do like defense research and banging my wife, so I'm gonna peace out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Olifant-2 pts8 hr

It doesn't mean humans can't be better than that. It means you can't just alienate people because they are less than perfect. 2/3

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BalfMalark1 pt3 hr

Less than perfect!? These guys are less than perfect!? Thats it, just shy of perfection these chaps.

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Olifant1 pt1 hr

Which guys? You gotta be more specific. Or do you just see Nazis everywhere? That's a common ailment these days. Nazi-vision.

 

 

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Olifant-2 pts8 hr

Expecting people to be 100% angelic is asking to be disappointed. You wanna create more Nazis than there already are? 3/4

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RingoAteMyBaby4 pts8 hr

Who the fuck said 100% angelic? There's a massive gulf between wishing spite-genocide on a race and being a saint.

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Olifant0 pts8 hr

And most of the people you're ascribing that to don't wish for genocide. Painting with broad strokes is part of the problem.

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Arawhon1 pt2 hr

They use a fuckton of euphemism and dog whistles so idiots like you can say they arent calling for genocide, when they are.

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Olifant1 pt1 hr

I'm sorry, are you talking about everyone with a swastika tattoo, or just people who read Breitbart? Hard to tell with you folks.

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Arawhon1 pt36 min

Do you honestly think there is a difference? Cause from where I stand in my knowledge of both, they aren't different.

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Olifant1 pt16 min

There you go. Right there. That's the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Olifant-2 pts8 hr

Then just tell them they're no better than Nazis because of their small moral imperfections. 4/4

 

 

 

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BalfMalark3 pts3 hr

I am, I'm fucking miles away from it. Obviously socioeconomics have a large part in turning people to fascism, but that doesnt absolve...

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BalfMalark3 pts3 hr

them, they are still racist pieces of shit that deserve nothing above contempt.

 

 

 

 

 

Formatting this so it made any sense was an absolute pain in the ass, but I did want to preserve the complete lack of self-awareness.