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Sturgeon's House

Post Election Thread: Democracy Dies In Darkness And You Can Help


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45 minutes ago, Ulric said:

We need a meme picture of ISIS smashing historical artifacts and lefties tearing down statues.

I've already seen this on FB with comparable videos of ISIS smashing statuary in Palmyra and the scum tearing down public statues.

 

Im listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio as I type and the callers are already making the ISIS comparison. 

 

Considering what we do to ISIS, it doesn't take too many jumps to conclusion for certain people to treat the Antifa/BLM/BlackBloc protestors the same way.

 

 

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Yeah, I just heard that caller, too.

 

People can say whatever they want, but when they start erasing history and destroying monuments/artifacts, I have zero issues with those people being erased from history. There is a reason why we left Auschwitz standing; to remind us of the past so that we do not repeat it.

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13 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

It sort of goes like this:

"You know, I've noticed black people commit murder at a rate eight times higher than white people."

 

"That's racist."

"Right, well. I must be a racist then. I guess I should go build a shrine to Hitler, or something?"

 

Compressed for comedic effect, obviously, but this is how it actually works. People get tired of being called racists, and - somewhat paradoxically - a small but significant minority end up deciding to just take it all the way. Cuz why not, if acknowledging simple fact gets you 80% of the way there anyway? Shame does work on most people, but it doesn't work on some, and the important thing to remember is that that minority it doesn't work on is way, way larger than the previously extant number of racists in this country. So if you shame people aggressively like that, you end up increasing the number of outright racists, not decreasing them.

This is also supposedly how Islamic terror gets some of its recruits too. 

 

Having read the Turner Diaries, there are connections between the Neo-Nazis and the more cultural conservative types on the right but there are some major hoops someone has to go through to actually start believing in the crap. I think the problem lies with the fact that there isn't really any intellectual right movement that is worth shit and the same goes to the left as well. 

 

How many of the statues that venerate the CSA actually have important historical information on them that isn't whitewashed? I don't think America is losing anything by taking down cheap and useless statues as compared to the iconoclasms under wahhabist rule. I do worry about the mob's mentality to go on to another target that is actually important, but statues of the CSA isn't going to be my hill to die on. 

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You're right about the subject matter, these statues are ultimately of little too much historical significance. Partly I say this because I was born and raised in Colorado, so I have zero connection with that heritage, but from an objective standpoint, a statue of some guy in a park has little bearing on the modern times. I am concerned about the mentality that says that it's OK to go around and destroy things that are nearly a century old simply because you dislike what you think they stood for. This isn't like the Russians removing Stalin's statues, or the Iraqis tearing down Saddam statues immediately after the demise of the leaders.

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41 minutes ago, Donward said:

Well fuck.

 

Better buy one of those shitty Mitchell Mausers...

Hey now, I'm proud of my Russian captured 1941 Oberndorf Mauser. 

 

Well shit, 7 strikes against me, and counting. White hetero able-bodied male of middle class upbringing who listens to Rush and owns one of the most Mauser Mausers you can get. Looks like I have no choice but to be a Nazi. Time to dye my hair blond and get blue contacts.

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HAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHA

 

Remember all the times antifa was throwing rocks through windows and burning down buildings?  Remember how they were violently ganging up and attacking people with any opinion different than their's?  My school never made a single peep about that, even though I know for a fact that people around here were getting genuinely worried about that stuff.  If the far right holds even a single rally almost a thousand miles away, the school president makes sure to send everyone an email to denounce it and reaffirm their commitment towards tolerance, diversity, and social justice, as well as how we need to combat hate.  It isn't bigotry or hatred if they're dressed in black hoodies instead of white robes!

 

I guess we're talking about this anyways, but certain people are pretty damn oblivious to the fact that such lopsided treatment of political extremes is going to drive further support to far right movements.  inb4 Weimar Germany.

 

Spoiler


Quote

To All members of the UCM community,

 

The tragedy in Charlottesville, Va., last weekend reminds us that as a caring, inclusive, respectful and responsible university community, we must continue to work together to condemn acts of violence, bigotry and racism, which have no place on college campuses and in our society.

 

We stand in unison at UCM to let members of Charlottesville and the University of Virginia communities know that they are in our thoughts at this very difficult time, and we reaffirm our strong commitment to social justice. We acknowledge our important role as a community of learners who believe that education is a way to combat ignorance that leads to hate-centered ideologies and behaviors such as white supremacy and anti-Semitism, and a general lack of understanding about different people and cultures. As a university community, we must remain steadfast in believing that we can make a positive difference in the world around us if we work together to teach others the futility in violence and hate, while turning our anger about such senseless acts into action.   

 

Amidst the events in Charlottesville, this is a follow-up to remind you that your safety and well-being at UCM is an ongoing priority. We realize some campus members may be feeling anxiety or isolated at this time, so here are just a few resources that may be helpful:

 

---omitted---

 

 


 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

An actual conversation I had on Imgur this morning:

 

TL;DR, I point out that calling people Nazis for no reason just makes more Nazis, then a guy proceeds to say everyone who reads Breitbart wants to commit genocide.
 

 

Formatting this so it made any sense was an absolute pain in the ass, but I did want to preserve the complete lack of self-awareness.

 

imgur comments are absolute cancer.  That's your problem

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1 hour ago, Ulric said:

Yeah, I just heard that caller, too.

 

People can say whatever they want, but when they start erasing history and destroying monuments/artifacts, I have zero issues with those people being erased from history. There is a reason why we left Auschwitz standing; to remind us of the past so that we do not repeat it.

Is this a universal urge? Can I finally find a safe place for my statue celebrating the conquest of America by the noble pan-African empire on your lawn?

 

Cos, with Gaddafi gone, I'm really struggling to find a buyer. And this thing taking up most of my yard.

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1 hour ago, Priory_of_Sion said:

This is also supposedly how Islamic terror gets some of its recruits too. 

 

Having read the Turner Diaries, there are connections between the Neo-Nazis and the more cultural conservative types on the right but there are some major hoops someone has to go through to actually start believing in the crap. I think the problem lies with the fact that there isn't really any intellectual right movement that is worth shit and the same goes to the left as well. 

 

How many of the statues that venerate the CSA actually have important historical information on them that isn't whitewashed? I don't think America is losing anything by taking down cheap and useless statues as compared to the iconoclasms under wahhabist rule. I do worry about the mob's mentality to go on to another target that is actually important, but statues of the CSA isn't going to be my hill to die on. 

 

Not at all in my interest to defend statues put up by overly romantic Lost Causers from the Gilded Age, but I think the people tearing them down don't care a whit about that, either. This is what we'll get if some whips don't get cracked soon:

 

1. Confederate flags get taken down due to minority outcry. ✔

 

2. Confederate statues are hurriedly taken down under pressure from the same. ✔

 

3. Confederate statues are personally defaced/destroyed by the same. ✔

 

4. Destruction/defacing of Confederate and Union graveyards.

 

4. Escalation. Destruction of other property, monuments, etc. Destruction of historical sites as the mob is emboldened.

 

5. Assaults and possibly murder/manslaughter as escalation continues.

 

We've got a mob that is trying to see just how far they can push things. I don't think this is really about Confederate statues. They are a convenient outlet. This is about politics by other means.

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9 minutes ago, Ulric said:

We can put it next to the Sea Witch and Giraffeathoth.

 

I do have a near universal urge to preserve old things simply because they are old. Obviously they have to be significant enough to warrant it.

Trust me, the glorious conquest of your homeland will be significant.

 

Plus the robes took forever to get right.

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BTW, this has been driving me nuts for a while now. In high school, I was taught that there were two periods after the Civil War: Reconstruction, and another one which is usually called "the Gilded Age". However, in one of my classes the period after Reconstruction was referred to by another name, which also started with an "R" like Reconstruction. I want to say they called it Reclamation, but I'm not sure.

 

I can find no evidence on the web of this alternate time period in US history, but I'm certain it existed, because I used to refer to it all the time.

 

Anybody have any ideas? Does this period exist? Am I crazy? Am I a victim of mid-2000s revisionist history textbooks?

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15 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Not at all in my interest to defend statues put up by overly romantic Lost Causers from the Gilded Age, but I think the people tearing them down don't care a whit about that, either. This is what we'll get if some whips don't get cracked soon:

 

1. Confederate flags get taken down due to minority outcry. ✔

 

2. Confederate statues are hurriedly taken down under pressure from the same. ✔

 

3. Confederate statues are personally defaced/destroyed by the same. ✔

 

4. Destruction/defacing of Confederate and Union graveyards.

 

4. Escalation. Destruction of other property, monuments, etc. Destruction of historical sites as the mob is emboldened.

 

5. Assaults and possibly murder/manslaughter as escalation continues.

 

We've got a mob that is trying to see just how far they can push things. I don't think this is really about Confederate statues. They are a convenient outlet. This is about politics by other means.

Slipping back into something approaching seriousness: this might actually be a good prediction to bookmark.

 

I know that, on our side, Rhodes must fall begat fees must fall begat increasingly destructive action by an ever-smaller minority. So it's plausible.

 

Edit: each cycle took about a year, so this might perhaps be a good timeline to string the predictions on.

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I should also note that in the South the period from 1877-1893 is sometimes euphemistically called the Redemption or the Redemption Era, after the Redeemers. It certainly wasn't that. I went to school in Maryland, and the textbooks there were 100% Yankee. No way they would have called it that.

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14 minutes ago, Toxn said:

Trust me, the glorious conquest of your homeland will be significant.

 

Plus the robes took forever to get right.

 

Sorry hombre, but the Norks are going to reduce us to ashes and subjugate us first, so you'll have to fight them for it.

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I don't have as much of an issue with taking down statues of Lee (He was definitely a traitor, straight up broke the oath he swore as a US Army Officer. Also, I prefer my heroes not to be people who surrendered and couldn't even beat half of America. Sad!). Taking down statues of generic Confederate soldiers (the vast majority of whom owned few or no slaves and were actually motivated by defending their home rather than protecting their monetary investments) is shit.

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1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

BTW, this has been driving me nuts for a while now. In high school, I was taught that there were two periods after the Civil War: Reconstruction, and another one which is usually called "the Gilded Age". However, in one of my classes the period after Reconstruction was referred to by another name, which also started with an "R" like Reconstruction. I want to say they called it Reclamation, but I'm not sure.

 

I can find no evidence on the web of this alternate time period in US history, but I'm certain it existed, because I used to refer to it all the time.

 

Anybody have any ideas? Does this period exist? Am I crazy? Am I a victim of mid-2000s revisionist history textbooks?

I do not recall such a term used when I went through US History in middle school around '06-07 or when I took AP US History in '09-10

 

I do recall there was a push about the "New South" which rose out of Reconstruction, but we blew over that pretty quick

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2 hours ago, LostCosmonaut said:

I don't have as much of an issue with taking down statues of Lee (He was definitely a traitor, straight up broke the oath he swore as a US Army Officer. Also, I prefer my heroes not to be people who surrendered and couldn't even beat half of America. Sad!). Taking down statues of generic Confederate soldiers (the vast majority of whom owned few or no slaves and were actually motivated by defending their home rather than protecting their monetary investments) is shit.

I'm ok with taking it down, but then move it to a museum or something. Not a fan of erasing history either.

 

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Politico has a transcript

Quote

REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.

TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

 

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