Jump to content
Sturgeon's House

Recommended Posts

I just noticed that as well. But seeing as the blur is quite mild, I'm under the impression they're just trying to conceal some minor changes for now. 

 

In other news, Elbit received a contract for the production of howitzers for the IDF:

http://ir.elbitsystems.com/node/16041/pdf

 

Quote

HAIFA, Israel, March 27, 2019 -- Elbit Systems Ltd. announced today that it was awarded an approximately $125 million (NIS 460 million) contract from the Israeli Ministry of Defense ("IMOD") to supply fully automatic self-propelled howitzer gun systems to the Israeli Defense Forces ("IDF"). The contract, which also includes the supply of training simulators, will be performed over a 12-year period.

 

The IMOD and Elbit Systems intend that further part of the automatic howitzer gun systems program, under an additional contract to the Company in an amount that is expected to be material, will be performed by various U.S. companies including Elbit Systems of America, LLC, subject to completion of the receipt of applicable governmental approvals for the U.S. content.

 

The new automatic howitzer gun system is based on know-how and experience the Company accumulated over decades of supplying artillery systems to numerous armed forces. The new howitzer gun system is capable of automatic loading and laying. According to the applicable mission, the new gun system automatically selects the required projectile, propellant and fuze, loads them and lays the gun to optimally engage targets. The new howitzer gun system will enhance the effectiveness of the artillery formation of the IDF while reducing the number soldiers in each platform and significantly reduce life-cycle costs.

 

Bezhalel (Butzi) Machlis, President and CEO of Elbit Systems, commented: "We are proud to take part in building the future artillery formation of the IDF. This contract award is a vote of confidence in Israeli defense technology and an acknowledgment of the international leadership of Elbit Systems in the area of artillery systems. We believe that effective integration of precision, rapidity and autonomy together with a built-in connectivity to the communication and command & control systems will become the required standard. We are witnessing a growing need for advanced and reliable artillery systems that enable powerful and efficient operation in all combat configurations."

 

$125 million may seem like a considerable sum, and 12 years somewhat stands in line with the ex-MoD's claim that it will be done within a decade, but it only seems like it would be enough for maybe 25% of the needed vehicles. If every howitzer costs $2.5 million dollars, which I assume would actually be more but still, we're talking about maybe 50 howitzers, out of a total needed 200.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Couple more of the Mk.3-based Ofek    

Consider the geometry of actual armor without ignoring the LFP. In addition, the mass of the ammo is almost insignificant (25 kg per round and 40 or so rounds in the hull is 1 ton, vs 2 tons each

Something interesting about Merkava III's armor protection(in Chinese): Some of these images are come from Chinese course book《装甲防护技术基础》(The basic technology of armor protection), and others are

1 hour ago, VPZ said:

 

Maybe Iron Vision is installed.

 

I doubt it. IronVision is part of the Barak MBT. They're not going to just retrofit segments of the Barak to existing tanks because of logistical issues. It's also a complex system which may require revamped training courses for maintenance staff. And without the many upgrades going into the Barak, it may be somewhat out of context, and not fulfilling its potential. It's also why we're not seeing the IronVision tested on the Namer or Eitan yet.

 

6 minutes ago, SPARTAN ARMED said:

When you're posting, please make sure you're not reposting. I have already posted these news, no need to repeat it.

 

Anyway, it seems this contract also includes prototypes. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I doubt it. IronVision is part of the Barak MBT. They're not going to just retrofit segments of the Barak to existing tanks because of logistical issues. It's also a complex system which may require revamped training courses for maintenance staff. And without the many upgrades going into the Barak, it may be somewhat out of context, and not fulfilling its potential. It's also why we're not seeing the IronVision tested on the Namer or Eitan yet.

 

It's cameras, a computer and a helmet. Not exactly maintenance heavy, assuming the cameras aren't too exotic. There's no reason to believe they are.

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, SPARTAN ARMED said:

 

That's funny - they claim that the new howitzer to be adopted is Atmos, and than, say that it will be fully automatic. :D

 

38 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I doubt it. IronVision is part of the Barak MBT. They're not going to just retrofit segments of the Barak to existing tanks because of logistical issues. It's also a complex system which may require revamped training courses for maintenance staff. And without the many upgrades going into the Barak, it may be somewhat out of context, and not fulfilling its potential. It's also why we're not seeing the IronVision tested on the Namer or Eitan yet.

 

It's already tested on Bradley.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, MRose said:

 

It's cameras, a computer and a helmet. Not exactly maintenance heavy, assuming the cameras aren't too exotic. There's no reason to believe they are.

Which are directly connected to the FCS, BMS, and APS. These are the most complex computer systems in the tank, and involve almost all sensors onboard the tank.

These connections are never simple to make and troubleshoot.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, VPZ said:

 

That's funny - they claim that Atmos is going to be adopted, and than, say that it will be fully automatic. :D

 

What's funny about that? It was talked about for a long time, and not too long ago Elbit have shown a standalone ATMOS turret with its autoloading system. Very simple, and very much real.

The ATMOS is not that small 6x6 Tatra truck with a short L/39 gun that was shown 15 years ago. It's the electronic architecture behind it. It's the combination of the BMS, laying system, fire control computer, and communications network.

It was shown in many variants - 6x6, 8x8, L/39, L/45, L/52, fully manual, semi-automatic, and now they have created a fully automatic version for the L/52, to be mounted on a HEMTT truck.

The RoF is to be 8RPM in a limited mode, with an override option to increase it to an unknown amount.

 

1 minute ago, VPZ said:

 

It's already tested on Bradley.

So what? The cameras of the IronVision were publicly shown a long time ago. And Elbit's video of the IronVision from 2016 also shows a live demonstration.

But there's a difference between showing a demonstrator and testing the system, and having it already in service.

 

Any change in any AFV, necessarily requires retraining the maintenance crews. The more complex the system is, the more likely the IDF are to wait for the next cycle of recruits to implement the new courses.

The IronVision could have been fully ready on an AFV about a year ago. But there's a lot of work to be done if the IDF want it to enter service properly, with a secured chain of logistics, maintenance capability, and technical support.

It's not without reason that the IDF very clearly stated that the system enters service in 2021, not 2019.

 

And these tanks are on the border with Gaza. These are active units, not experimental units. Whatever kit they have, they're going into Gaza with it, if the decision comes for a ground maneuver (for non-Israelis reading this, recently tensions have gone up and Hamas launched multiple rockets at Tel Aviv, one of which has destroyed a home and injured its residents, to which the IDF responded by destroying strategic Hamas assets).

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:
20 minutes ago, MRose said:

 

It's cameras, a computer and a helmet. Not exactly maintenance heavy, assuming the cameras aren't too exotic. There's no reason to believe they are.

Which are directly connected to the FCS, BMS, and APS. These are the most complex computer systems in the tank, and involve almost all sensors onboard the tank.

These connections are never simple to make and troubleshoot.

 

I'm not sure I understand how that would increase the maintenance requirements of those systems. On the F-35, which is the most direct analogue the cameras themselves require the most attention, and Iron Vision won't be using anything nearly that complex. Assuming that they integrated it the easiest possible way, only the FCS and BMS need to be integrated. The APS is already integrated with those systems.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, VPZ said:

 

Because the howitzer they are going to adopt is not Atmos, and it's good that it isn't.

 

Again, the ATMOS is the architecture of the system. It's not the truck or the gun. They're using expansions based on the ATMOS architecture to create this new howitzer. The IDF will give it a new name, but it's obvious what Elbit is basing this on.

 

39 minutes ago, MRose said:

This one's an estimate of one guy, that the blurred Namers are using Spike missiles. 

IMO they're not a suitable platform for that. The Eitans are a much better choice, as they're cheaper to maintain and use, and because a 30km missile launcher does not need so much protection.

 

And don't forget the first blurry image was of Merkava tanks, not Namer APCs. 

 

My personal guess is a replacement to the ELAWS. In case some of you haven't noticed, for a very long time now, the Merkava tanks have had these mounts for Elbit's laser warning systems (ELAWS):

Spoiler

On the turret cheeks, right below the smoke grenade launchers

IDF-Merkava-Mk-4M-2016-Zachi-Evenor.jpg

 

But they've been empty for god knows how long. It's possible the IDF wants to replace them with something of similar size (new tanks are still built with these mounts), perhaps something that combines soft-kill or threat detection.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Again, the ATMOS is the architecture of the system. It's not the truck or the gun. They're using expansions based on the ATMOS architecture to create this new howitzer. The IDF will give it a new name, but it's obvious what Elbit is basing this on.

 

 

It will be another type of howitzer, not just a cannon on a truck - that's the point. Atmos itself is based on other howitzer too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

My personal guess is a replacement to the ELAWS. In case some of you haven't noticed, for a very long time now, the Merkava tanks have had these mounts for Elbit's laser warning systems (ELAWS):

  Reveal hidden contents

On the turret cheeks, right below the smoke grenade launchers

IDF-Merkava-Mk-4M-2016-Zachi-Evenor.jpg

 

 But they've been empty for god knows how long. It's possible the IDF wants to replace them with something of similar size (new tanks are still built with these mounts), perhaps something that combines soft-kill or threat detection.

 

Why would that be censored then?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VPZ said:

 

I mean turret and autoloader.

The turret and autoloader are not "different" because they haven't existed on previous versions. 

The original ATMOS used a loading assistance device that could hold 3 projectiles in place, and required manual loading of the propellant charge. 

Loading the charge and primer automatically does not make this an entirely new system. It's a rather minor addition when you look at the whole system. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The original ATMOS used a loading assistance device that could hold 3 projectiles in place, and required manual loading of the propellant charge. 

 

 

Actually, there is a big difference between manually operated cannon on a truck and unmanned turret. 

 

Quote

Loading the charge and primer automatically does not make this an entirely new system. It's a rather minor addition when you look at the whole system. 

 

Then, there is no big difference between Atmos and M-71 - just some "minor additions".

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, VPZ said:

 

Actually, there is a big difference between manually operated cannon on a truck and unmanned turret. 

 

There is a big difference in terms of capability. But a relatively small difference in the engineering aspect. The electronic architecture is always the most difficult part of an AFV to create, if you're making an AFV from scratch. 

As the ATMOS is basically the electronic architecture, and the sum of Elbit's products in sensory, data management, communications, and control, and its concept remains, they're allowed to call it the ATMOS even if they changed the cannon or loading system.

 

12 minutes ago, VPZ said:

 

Then, there is no big difference between Atmos and M-71 - just some "minor additions".

 

The M-71 never used any component of the ATMOS. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The electronic architecture is always the most difficult part of an AFV to create, if you're making an AFV from scratch. 

 

Electronic architecture of new howitzer must be changed.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The M-71 never used any component of the ATMOS. 

 

Atmos has similarities with M-71. IMO, it's based on M-71.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, VPZ said:

 

Electronic architecture of new howitzer must be changed.

 

In what way? And why?

 

18 minutes ago, VPZ said:

 

Atmos has similarities with M-71. IMO, it's based on M-71.

 

Except the ATMOS is using an L/52 gun, not an L/39. The M-71 is L/39. And the entire system is a sum of more than just the cannon. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Similar Content

    • By SH_MM
      Found a few higher resolution photographs from the recent North Korean military parade. We didn't have a topic for BEST KOREAN armored fighting vehicles, so here it is.
       
      New main battle tank, Abrams-Armata clone based on Ch'ŏnma turret design (welded, box-shaped turret) and Sŏn'gun hull design (i.e. centerline driver's position). The bolts of the armor on the hull front is finally visible given the increased resolution. It might not be ERA given the lack of lines inbetween. Maybe is a NERA module akin to the MEXAS hull add-on armor for the Leopard 2A5?
       
      Other details include an APS with four radar panels (the side-mounted radar panels look a lot different - and a lot more real - than the ones mounted at the turret corners) and twelve countermeasures in four banks (two banks à three launchers each at the turret front, two banks à three launchers on the left and right side of the turret). Thermal imagers for gunner and commander, meteorological mast, two laser warning receivers, 115 mm smoothbore gun without thermal sleeve but with muzze reference system, 30 mm grenade launcher on the turret, six smoke grenade dischargers (three at each turret rear corner)
       


       
      IMO the layout of the roof-mounted ERA is really odd. Either the armor array covering the left turret cheek is significantly thinner than the armor on the right turret cheek or the roof-mounted ERA overlaps with the armor.
       


      The first ERA/armor element of the skirt is connected by hinges and can probably swivel to allow better access to the track. There is a cut-out in the slat armor for the engine exhaust. Also note the actual turret ring - very small diameter compared to the outer dimensions of the turret.
       
      Stryker MGS copy with D-30 field gun clone and mid engine:

      Note there are four crew hatches. Driver (on the left front of the vehicle), commander (on the right front of the vehicle, seat is placed a bit further back), gunner (left side of the gun's overhead mount, next to the gunner's sight) and unknown crew member (right side of gun's overhead mount with 30 mm automatic grenade launcher mounted at the hatch). The vehicle also has a thermal imager and laser rangefinder (gunner's sight is identical to the new tank), but no independent optic for the commander. It also has the same meteorological mast and laser warner receivers as the new MBT.
       
      What is the purpose of the fourth crew member? He cannot realistically load the gun...
       
      The vehicle has a small trim vane for swimming, the side armor is made of very thin spaced steel that is bend on multiple spots, so it clearly is not ceramic armor as fitted to the actual Stryker.

       
      The tank destroyer variant of the same Stryker MGS copy fitted with a Bulsae-3 ATGM launcher.
       

      Note that there is again a third hatch with 30 mm automatic grenade launcher behind the commander's position. Laser warning receivers and trime vane are again stand-out features. The sighting complex for the Bulsae-3 ATGMs is different with a large circular optic (fitted with cover) probably being a thermal imager and two smaller lenses visible on the very right (as seen from the vehicle's point of view) probably containing a day sight and parts of the guidance system.
       

      Non line-of-sight ATGM carrier based on the 6x6 local variant of the BTR, again fitted with laser warning receivers and a trim vane. There are only two hatches and two windows, but there is a three men crew inside.
       
       
      There are a lot more photos here, but most of them are infantry of missile system (MLRS' and ICBMs).
    • By Monochromelody
      Disappeared for a long period, Mai_Waffentrager reappeared four months ago. 
      This time, he took out another photoshoped artifact. 

      He claimed that the Japanese prototype 105GSR (105 mm Gun Soft Recoil) used an autoloader similar to Swedish UDES 19 project. Then he showed this pic and said it came from a Japanese patent file. 
      Well, things turn out that it cames from Bofors AG's own patent, with all markings and numbers wiped out. 

      original file→https://patents.google.com/patent/GB1565069A/en?q=top+mounted+gun&assignee=bofors&oq=top+mounted+gun+bofors
      He has not changed since his Type 90 armor scam busted. Guys, stay sharp and be cautious. 
       
    • By Beer
      I am sure there are many very interesting stories to share about this topic. Let's start with couple of articles about the weird and sometimes downright crazy history of Czechoslovak assistance which helped Israel to survive its early days. It's true that Czechoslovakia asked a lot of money for bypassing the UN embargo but it doesn't change the fact that it helped in the critical time - before the change of course was ordered from Kremlin in 1949. It's also worth mentioning that the arms-smuggling to Israel brought up to 1/3 of all foreign currency income of Czechoslovakia at that time! It's all in Czech but well understandable with the google translate. 
       
      Here in short the story of the secret Czechoslovak operation DI - the military asistance to Israel from the website of the Czech Institute of the military history. The article contains rare historical photos from the covert military training for army specialists (pilots, tankers, mechanics and even an infantry brigade made of volunteers from the former Czechoslovak Army Corps in USSR). 
      https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vhu.cz%2Fprubeh-a-podrobnosti-cs-vojenske-pomoci-izraeli-na-konci-40-let%2F
       
      If you really like the topic, you can learn many more details from these six chapters of this superlong article (sure worth studying for anyone interested in the topic).
      https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.valka.cz%2F14222-Ceskoslovensko-a-jeho-vojenska-pomoc-statu-Izrael-v-prvnim-obdobi-jeho-samostatne-existence-I%3Futm_source%3Dvalka_cz%26utm_medium%3Darticle%26utm_campaign%3Dserial
      https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.valka.cz%2F14223-Ceskoslovensko-a-jeho-vojenska-pomoc-statu-Izrael-v-prvnim-obdobi-jeho-samostatne-existence-II%3Futm_source%3Dvalka_cz%26utm_medium%3Darticle%26utm_campaign%3Dserial
      https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.valka.cz%2F14230-Ceskoslovensko-a-jeho-vojenska-pomoc-statu-Izrael-v-prvnim-obdobi-jeho-samostatne-existence-III
      https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.valka.cz%2F14236-Ceskoslovensko-a-jeho-vojenska-pomoc-statu-Izrael-v-prvnim-obdobi-jeho-samostatne-existence-IV%3Futm_source%3Dvalka_cz%26utm_medium%3Darticle%26utm_campaign%3Dserial
      https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.valka.cz%2F14242-Ceskoslovensko-a-jeho-vojenska-pomoc-statu-Izrael-v-prvnim-obdobi-jeho-samostatne-existence-V%3Futm_source%3Dvalka_cz%26utm_medium%3Darticle%26utm_campaign%3Dserial
      https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.valka.cz%2F14246-Ceskoslovensko-a-jeho-vojenska-pomoc-statu-Izrael-v-prvnim-obdobi-jeho-samostatne-existence-VI%3Futm_source%3Dvalka_cz%26utm_medium%3Darticle%26utm_campaign%3Dserial
       
      After that we have the totally crazy story of the Cairo bombing raid actually performed from the communist Czechoslovakia in 1948. Why don't we have yet any movie about three B-17s smuggled from USA, crewed by American-Jewish airmen, armed with former German machineguns and bombs and operating from an airfield located in then communist Czechoslovakia? If that doesn't deserve to be filmed than what does? 
      https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idnes.cz%2Fzpravy%2Fdomaci%2Fnalet-zatec-kahira-b-17-izrael.A130712_105045_domaci_jw
       
      Most of you likely know that the first combat aircraft of the Israeli airforce were Czechoslovak Avia S-199 fighters. This stillborn stop-gap modification of the leftover Bf-109G airframe was rather useless in fact (Czechoslovakia had loads of Bf-109 airframes but no spare DB-605 engines whose reliability was absurdly low due to bad late-war steel, so the engines were replaced with Jumo-211 bomber units - completely unsuitable but available) but nevertheless it helped to stop the Egyptian attack on Tel Aviv and brought a very important psychological advantage on the Israeli side. More about these planes here. 
      https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idnes.cz%2Ftechnet%2Fvojenstvi%2Fizrael-ceskoslovensko-vyroci-izraelske-letectvo.A180526_235424_vojenstvi_erp
      https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idnes.cz%2Ftechnet%2Fvojenstvi%2Fceskoslovenske-letectvo-stihaci-letadlo-avia-s-199.A200116_174150_vojenstvi_erp 
       
      To add to the absurdity of that time... the man behind the support for the Israel was Czechoslovak FM Vladimír Clementis who was executed just few years later as a result of an intra-communist power struggle.  
       
       
       
       
       
       
       

×
×
  • Create New...