Terror Attacks and Active Shooter Events Thread

[Meplat]

1 minute ago, Xoon said:

Oh, the Multi. 

 

How on earth was this guy supposed to make a smaller variant of this? 

 

And how would this round be practical for such a small size?

It's very, very unlikely he did make one, and it would be at best "impractical, but fun" provided you did not blow yourself up in the process. 

 

The U.S. stopped making the .30" AP-I because it was basically useless. The large scale manufacture of small caliber AP-I/APIT/APHE/AP-T (etc) munitions in the U.S., did not really last post WW2 because of cost of manufacture, and lack of practicality.

[Ramlaen]

35 minutes ago, Xoon said:

Oh, the Multi. 

 

How on earth was this guy supposed to make a smaller variant of this? 

 

And how would this round be practical for such a small size?

 

Referring to 7.62 and 5.56,

 

“Black tip = AP

Silver tip = API

Green tip = Raufoss”

 

See if you can spot the questionable part.

[Sturgeon]

6 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

 

Referring to 7.62 and 5.56,

 

“Black tip = AP

Silver tip = API

Green tip = Raufoss”

 

See if you can spot the questionable part.

 

Some fucker does not understand tip codes.

[Meplat]

6 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

 

Referring to 7.62 and 5.56,

 

“Black tip = AP

Silver tip = API

Green tip = Raufoss”

 

See if you can spot the questionable part.

Other than per that definition I can "make API" with a bottle of Testor's paint? (Maybe "Humbrol" or "Vallejo" if I'm feeling ritzy..)

 

Look, you will see all kinds of rampant stupidity from the feds and media before this is done. Paint on the tip of a projo means jack and/or shit til you know where it came from, and even then you may need to actually grit your teeth and dissect it. 

[Meplat]

3 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Some fucker does not understand tip codes.

Basically. I bet they'd be confused if you handed them a round of Dominican Republic "yellow" tipped .50 Browning.

Let alone the near rainbow colored "TZZ" stamped .50 BMG I have. 

[Donward]

So just as I suspected, the rules surrounding what constitutes AP rounds and what constitutes manufacturing them seem kind of murky.

 

To me, I'm kind of curious about the investment of resources the feds are using to investigate this guy. While I'm sure tens of thousands of man hours have now been spent investigating this case and "the full resources of local, state and federal law enforcement" are being used to investigate the shooting, these resources aren't infinite. 

Unless there is evidence the feds are withholding show Haig as an accomplice or sympathetic to the prospect of a shooting via e-mails, or provided some other form of aid, this is basically just a process crime where some guy happened to be unlucky enough to sell ammo to a murderous psychopath, and broke some Byzantine rule regarding selling AP ammunition. 

It's concerning that resources are being invested on this guy when there are HUGE questions regarding the shooting that haven't been addressed. 

[Meplat]

6 minutes ago, Donward said:

So just as I suspected, the rules surrounding what constitutes AP rounds and what constitutes manufacturing them seem kind of murky.

 

To me, I'm kind of curious about the investment of resources the feds are using to investigate this guy. While I'm sure tens of thousands of man hours have now been spent investigating this case and "the full resources of local, state and federal law enforcement" are being used to investigate the shooting, these resources aren't infinite. 

Unless there is evidence the feds are withholding show Haig as an accomplice or sympathetic to the prospect of a shooting via e-mails, or provided some other form of aid, this is basically just a process crime where some guy happened to be unlucky enough to sell ammo to a murderous psychopath, and broke some Byzantine rule regarding selling AP ammunition. 

It's concerning that resources are being invested on this guy when there are HUGE questions regarding the shooting that haven't been addressed. 

 

 

Here's the ATF's own somewhat muddy answer.

 

" Armor piercing ammunition. Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun and which are constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or full jacketed projectiles larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. The term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, frangible projectiles designed for target shooting, projectiles which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectiles or projectile cores which the Director finds are intended to be used for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices. "

 

And here is what he's being charged with violating..

 

"

§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.

No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:

a. The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;

b. The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or

c. The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.

 

"

 

Now, why is 7,62NATO AP considered "Armor Piercing" (per their definition) , when the overwhelming number of arms chambered for it, are not pistols?..

See that little bit.."which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes".. Yep. 5.56M855 is "sporting purpose", but 7,62mm M61 is not, per "the Director".

[Ulric]

Except that you can freely buy M61 on the open market. Also, you can get 30.06 and .50 BMG AP and API without any problems, not to mention a slew of other calibers. Also, the definition of "handgun" ammunition has to much latitude.

[Donward]

It's completely asinine that .308/7.62 be considered a "pistol" round of any sort. But then again it's the logical conclusion of 80 years of nonsense regarding what is and is not a pistol, short-barreled rifle, and carbine and the hoops people have to go through regarding arbitrary prohibitions over barrel length. 

[Sturgeon]

IMO calibers just need to be specified as "rifle" or "pistol" calibers from inception. Just cut that Gordian knot.

[Meplat]

6 hours ago, Ulric said:

Except that you can freely buy M61 on the open market. Also, you can get 30.06 and .50 BMG AP and API without any problems, not to mention a slew of other calibers. Also, the definition of "handgun" ammunition has to much latitude.

 

6 hours ago, Donward said:

It's completely asinine that .308/7.62 be considered a "pistol" round of any sort. But then again it's the logical conclusion of 80 years of nonsense regarding what is and is not a pistol, short-barreled rifle, and carbine and the hoops people have to go through regarding arbitrary prohibitions over barrel length. 

 

6 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

IMO calibers just need to be specified as "rifle" or "pistol" calibers from inception. Just cut that Gordian knot.

 

 

And here's more fun to try and digest.

 

ATF Herpdederp.

 

The real fix is the complete and total rollback of all federal firearms laws.

It will never happen, because the ATF like many other alphabet soup agencies is a giant form of bureaucratic welfare.

[Ulric]

Like I said, way too much latitude in what is "handgun" ammunition. A much more reasonable approach is to look at what calibers are most commonly used in criminal activity, or likely to be used in criminal activity, and also whether or not the "non armor piercing" loadings for that cartridge are capable of defeating various types of body armor to begin with, primarily focusing on the most common type of armor worn by police the most.

 

They do not use any data or statics in their analysis, they just make up their own ideas about what would likely make a firearm likely to be used in crime. How many times have the police encountered a thug with an AR pistol shoved down his pants?

[Meplat]

10 minutes ago, Ulric said:

Like I said, way too much latitude in what is "handgun" ammunition. A much more reasonable approach is to look at what calibers are most commonly used in criminal activity, or likely to be used in criminal activity, and also whether or not the "non armor piercing" loadings for that cartridge are capable of defeating various types of body armor to begin with, primarily focusing on the most common type of armor worn by police the most.

 

They do not use any data or statics in their analysis, they just make up their own ideas about what would likely make a firearm likely to be used in crime. How many times have the police encountered a thug with an AR pistol shoved down his pants?

You're applying logic, to an (all but intentionally) illogical set of laws and rulings.

 

The '34 GCA  is absurdly fuzzy, with the 68 GCA, things only got increasingly convoluted to where we have an agency that has the power to regulate, on a whim, a constitutionally guaranteed right.

 

 

[T___A]

fuck another one

 

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/shooting-at-south-florida-high-school

[Ramlaen]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/

 

The spelling of the name on that instagram is suspect.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

Details are sparse right now. Any word on what was used? Was this a student? 

[T___A]

1 minute ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

Details are sparse right now. Any word on what was used? Was this a student? 

 

I know a family friend who has a son at that school. At least one teacher and two school security guards are dead.

[T___A]

Also the shooter was in special needs.

 

That words I were told: "ESE means gifted and has a disablity"

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

There's a lot of different classifications for crazy in public schools these days. He might be a step or two above shitting himself but a step below general population. 

 

It's a damned shame. Really is. Security guard didn't take the guy out? 

 

Teacher should have had a gun. 

[Donward]

Obviously we have to wait until the details come out but this looks like a case where everyone knew the shooter was nucking futz but nothing was done about it and he somehow got a gun anyway?

[Ramlaen]

http://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article200094039.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

“The shooter, a former student identified by law enforcement sources as Nicolas de Jesus Cruz, managed to make it off campus. He was cornered and taken into custody in a townhouse at Pelican Pointe at Wyndham Lakes in Coral Springs.”

 

“A teacher at the school, however, told the Miami Herald that Cruz, 19, had been identified as a potential threat to fellow students in the past. Gard says he believes the school administration had sent out an email warning teachers that the student had made threats against other in the past and that he should not be allowed on the campus with a backpack. Another student interviewed on the scene by Channel 7 said the student had guns at home.

“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,” said math teacher Jim Gard, who said the former student suspected in the shootings had been in his class last year. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.” “

[Ramlaen]

Wonder if this played a role.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/11/05/in-florida-agreement-to-reduce-student-arrests/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

“The agreement with Broward County Public Schools in Florida, which officials planned to announce Tuesday, is one of the first comprehensive plans bringing together district officials, police and the state attorney’s office to create an alternative to the zero-tolerance policies prevalent in many schools. It charges principals rather than school resource officers with being the primary decision makers in responding to student misbehavior.

The move is designed to cut down on what has become known as the “school-to-prison pipeline,” where students accused of offenses like disrupting class or loitering are suspended, arrested and charged with crimes.”

[Donward]

In regards to the subject of jumping to conclusions, DailyWire/Foxnews is claiming that the shooter is part of the "Resistance" and muddled around with pro-Syrian Resistance groups.

 

“He’s also following resistance groups, like Syrian Resistance groups and fighter groups out of Iraq and, we should also note that a couple days ago, as far as a week ago, that he was involved in a Youtube chat room conversation about bombs or building bombs,” Gallagher said.

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27160/suspected-gunman-florida-school-shooting-ryan-saavedra

[Legiondude]

Seen a separate claim that a separate instagram account with the guy's name had the user wearing a MAGA hat in the avatar. So it's unclear if they're even looking at the right accounts

[Donward]

Yep. As always, pretty much every conclusion jumped to by the media will probably be wrong for the first day or two.