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Profanity does not help your case, Meplat.

 

Denial/dIsmissal of listed merits - presented by a distinguished design engineer - as ad hype, like-wise.

 

Gear drives, once set - keep time, like clockwork, & make regular pushrod OHV valve clearance checks - redundant.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, M.B-5 said:

Profanity does not help your case, Meplat.

 

Denial/dIsmissal of listed merits - presented by a distinguished design engineer - as ad hype, like-wise.

 

Gear drives, once set - keep time, like clockwork, & make regular pushrod OHV valve clearance checks - redundant.

 

 

It defeats your earlier parroted nonsense about it being "simpler", for fuck's sake.

Regular inspection is needed regardless, because there is no place to pull over.

 

Fuck it, here-

I present to the jury, a cutaway of the supposedly "simpler" sleeve valve engine.

 

https://i.imgur.com/LxvuThc.jpg

 

And here is the timing gear for a 2800.

 

https://i.imgur.com/iVm2ocL.jpg

 

And to further illustrate the level of "gears for gear's sake"  involved with the two row sleeve valve radial, here is a

cutaway of a Wright turbocompound.

Note that even it's construction is simple, compared to the Bristol offering.

https://i.imgur.com/O03ByZW.jpg

 

Sleeve valve radial aircraft engines are hard evidence of "TANSTAAFL" in operation. You may have some very pretty looking jugs, but your belly is a watchmaker's wet dream.

 

 

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Link to download for Tempest V pilot's manual; https://www.dropbox.com/s/d00qe9vl3sdkdxj/TempestV PilotNotes.pdf?dl=0

And an R-2800 maintenance manual, which is a bit more comprehensive; https://www.dropbox.com/s/y820691i8di5zwl/Pratt Whitney Maintenance Manual_ Double Wasp R-2800 CA Engines.pdf?dl=0

Also, if you can't handle some profanity, well, this might not be the best place for you.

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No LC, I can "handle" them bad words.

 

Shit, I've heard 'em all before, but the point is, Meplat's emotive response aint a substitute for understanding.

He still has to grasp the difference between arrangements of multiple gear sets & the concept of "complexity".

 

Yes, the gear set complex looks "busy",

but compared to lifters/pushrods/rockers/poppet valves 'n' springs all bouncing around, jerking out of adjustment,

- it is an accurate, durable, trouble-free set-up.

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Just now, M.B-5 said:

Shit, I've  heard 'em all before, but the point is, Meplat's emotive response aint a substitute for understanding.

He still has to grasp the difference between arrangements of multiple gear sets & the concept of "complexity".

 

Yes, the gear set complex looks "busy",

but compared to pushrods/rockers/poppet valves 'n' springs all bouncing around, getting out of adjustment,

- it is an accurate, durable, trouble-free set-up.

It looks busy, because IT IS.

You are attributing all  kinds of mechanical doom and gloom to to a series of aircraft engine that has a superb operational record,

while dismissing the problems associated with the sleeve valve designs with a wave of the hand.

 

Like "Oh, we need to change a cylinder assembly in a hurry, lest the wily Nipponese bomb our airstrip".

Or why having two reciprocating assemblies in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine is a bad idea.

 

"Bouncing around".. the days of atmospheric intake valves were long dead by the time the first 2800 left the line.

They are STILL" bouncing around" while sleeve valve engines are at best, museum pieces.

  Huh, maybe the old 2800 (and other mere poppet valve radials) are not as bad as you're inferring..

 

But hey, don't mind me, I just used to work on them.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Xlucine said:

A minor benefit, but a sleeve valve engine with the timing wrong is probably not going to start. A poppet valve engine, OTOH, will make expensive jangling noises when you turn it over.

 

It'll run, but you'll have a dead jug(s).

 

On the other hand it takes a concerted effort to get the lash so far out on a Pratt to get the piston to hit the valves. 

As in you REALLY have to be special.

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22 hours ago, M.B-5 said:

 

"...drop tanks behind the pilot..."

 

Yeah, sorry to be a grammar Nazi, J_G_T, but that's a real lousy sentence.

 

& sleeve-valve engine oil-consumption was certainly better than the big US radials, with their loose clearances

plus a multitude - of leaky joints...

 

The P-51 was not only much more fuel efficient/aero-slick than the R-2800 powered gas-hogs,

_ its cruise speed was ~ 100mph faster.

 

Funny that both the P-51 & P-47 were deemed worthy of significant revision (despite being in high demand),

but the P-38 wasn't, - due to the Lockheed being fairly close to being past its 'best by date' - by USAAF appraisal/reckoning.

 

& the German forces were a far more effective/dangerous enemy than those of Hirohito,

just as the USAAF losses lists - clearly show.

 

 

 

Oh, so we should treat you like an idiot who can't read English very well, granted the sentence wasn't the best, but any normal person with second-grade education should have no issues?  The picture should have helped you out as well,  maybe you should slow down and actually read a thread before you jump in acting like your some kind of authority, then your posts might not generate so much disdain.  Another thing that would help you out, would be instead of acting like a douchebag and using the G-nazi thing to dodge admitting your error, you could have just said, 'my bad', I misunderstood.  

 

You also like to bounce around and avoid directly addressing peoples questions about what you've posted, and you've not posted much in the way of sources, and your posts have a real arrogant-know-it-all flare to them, that won't fly with some of the questionable opinions you've posted. Your Fanboying an engine that went nowhere and had a pretty limited effect on the war is doing you no favors.  Who gives a shit the RAF limped along with some WWII fighters because their nation was to broke to fully upgrade to jets? That doesn't make your Napier Sabre any more relevant to WWII.  I really hope the men restoring the Tempests with sabres in them take very seriously how complicated and unreliable the Sabre could be if not maintained properly, and no one restoring these aircraft qualifies as an expert, since the motors how been out of use for decades, before they actually take to the air in one. I'm not overly worried though, most knowledgeable people don't go around trying to beat people up with their knowledge, like people with self-esteem issues do, and are smart enough to not fly an airplane until they are sure the grenade in front still has the pin in...

 

Your opinion of what a gas hog is, well it seems a little off, this makes you seem like fanboy, and this is another place where you changed your argument from GPH to cruise speed. ..  The Corsair could land on Carriers and the Mustang couldn't, so you're wrong, see how that doesn't work?  Try actually answering a question. If you look at the GPH ratings and compare the Merlin the R2800 on test stands, they have very similar min and max GPH, and the Corsairs higher GPH consumption at higher power makes sense in it was a lot bigger. If you want to talk about who had the speediest and most fuel-efficient cruise then the Mustang wins, but you still don't because of your argument changing ways. 

 

No one gave a shit about mustang production until the Merlin got put in it. You can harp all you want about how the Brits loved the MK1, but the US wasn't overly concerned about a cheap replacement for the P-40, the P-38 was just fine at the time. Later, when the Merlin woke the design up, and it was more the supercharger than the Merlin since the Merlin was fairly mediocre V12, but still the Merlin in the Mustang was the savior the 8th Needed to save them from their own stupid ideas and incompetence. When the Merlin Mustang went into production, they built a second factory but other than the B to D changes the Mustang didn't need a lot of major upgrades. The reason for this wasn't that the P-51 was some super design, it was it benefited by all the planes made before it, and all the lesson learned on the early model 51s.  The P-47 was not as much of an Orphean, but it had to be forced on the 5th Air Force.  The 5th, when the got them, were concerned about the range and designed and manufactured drop-tanks locally to make the P-47 more useful in the long-range campaigns in New Guinea. Because it was not in high demand either, production line changes were less of a concern, and the early P-47s had some issues and needed the upgrades.

 

What really impresses me, is that an aircraft designed in the final years of the 30s, was so technologically cutting edge, and in spite of some serious problems with compressibility, stayed in production, from before the US entered the war, right up to the end, and still remained competitive to anything the Germans produced, with relatively minor upgrades. Sure the intercooler changes were big, but not so big the War Production Board refused to allow it. The P-38 played a major part in figuring out what compressibility was and how to solve it. It also stayed in front-line service to the end of the war and many pilots did not want to trade it in for the Spam Can, mostly in the Pacific, but it still a fact. Had they put the K into production, nothing the Nazi's had could have done anything but run away from it. The War Production Board refused this massive update because the secondary factory was not up and running yet, and the P-38 was deemed too important to the war effort to slow down, and good enough.  I guess you think they were wrong too huh?

 

At this point, I don't really care about your opinions on how the Nazi supermen were the bestest enemy and those subhuman Japs were just clowns and easy kills.  

 

Quote

No, the 109/190 readily exceeded the P-38's Vne in the dive, & like the P-51, didn't need 'dive flaps' to regain control.

 

The thick-winged Typhoon was still cleared to dive at a 525mph EAS limit, though the Tempest's 'high speed wing ' profile allowed a later onset of drag/extra control capability & gave another ~25mph advantage - across the flight regime , by comparison.

 

P-38 'buffet' - bad enough to cause structural damage - was noted by the USAAF as a fundamental problem.

 

The Tempest was very robust though, with an ultimate stress rating of 14G, rather more than the USAAF design max.

 

See: period drag/structure documents; http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/structure-weight-data-and-drag-analysis.42716

2

 

I'll leave it to Coli to cover your first two 'points'

 

It's funny you cherry picked that out of your own source(the one below for the slow readers) but ignored the reports overall positive nature. It's also amusing you post this report since it blows your silly "but it didn't have a blown canopy" argument out of the sky. Very few P-38s broke up in compressibility dives, it was well known if you throttled back and waited until you got back down into thick air you could use the trim tabs to pull it out.  Structural damage from trying to force the controls when locked into a compressibility dive was not a P-38 only problem, a number of Mustangs had their tails rip off due to it. It also amusing the people doing the test and maintenance work struggled with the P-38, since they couldn't get it back together right. It's ok though, all the good P-38 mechanics were int he Pacific and MTO. The real reason the Air Force got rid of the P-38 as quick as they could when the war ended was that they were very expensive and complicated, and required more men and hours to keep in top flying shape. The Army Air Force faced the same budget cuts as the rest of the services and had to settle for the P-51 when the P-47N was a better aircraft. These are the reason the F-14 was killed off as well, not because it was no longer viable. Granted by the end, there were better airframes but no other airframe but the Spitfire was still relevant, and the Spitfire was feeling it's age much more than the P-38 was. 

 

 

If Tempest was so robust why were the elevators modified to reduce the forces they inflicted on its airframe? It's a good thing they had all those shitty typhoons to work out the bugs out of the airframe on, er never mind...

 

 

Quote

 Yet they sure did prove useful for the F4U & P-51 et al...

Lockheed didn't use the P-38's multi-framed canopy on their next fighter, the P-80, did they.

 

 

The USAAF deemed the P-38 as effectively passe`, & rather than 'polish the turd' - ordered the P-82, instead.

 

In fact, the USAAF had major concerns about the P-38's shortcomings as a fighter, in the intense combat ETO.

Summarized as:

 

"...airspeed limitations are low... ...tail buffeting... ...cause structural failure...

...definitely objectionable & hazardous.."

 

See full report here: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-67869.html

 

 

 

WARNING WARNING I covered some of the problems with this post on the P-38 above!!!! The REPORT linked in this quote is the one that talks about how great a plane the P-38 was.  WARNING WARNING!

 

(Put in place for the slower readers)

 

I can't fucking believe you're still going on about the P-38 needing a bubble. For fuck sake dude, learn something, or at least shut the fuck up about it. Your own source proves your stupid opinion on this wrong. How old are you? No one will respect you, not on this forum or in real life if you can't admit you're wrong when the truth is looking you right in the eye and giving you the middle finger. 

 

And of course the P-38 was dropped at the end of the war, the design was 6 years old you twat.  That you don't get that the P-38 was competitive to the end when it was a late 30s design makes you look like one of those people who just can't ever get the truth through their heads once they have convinced themselves their ideas are brilliant. Oh and hey, did you know the P-82 dropped the Marlins and put V1710s in, and they put out more horsepower than the Merlin by a large margin? And no, it's not because of Merlin licensing costs or other such bullshit, the Allison V1710 was a better V12. 

 

 

And yeah exaggerate the report to back you own bullshit while ignoring the shit that proves your other arguments wrong lol 

You earned the snark in this post by walking in like an arrogant little prick and picking a fight.  You want a civil conversation, try removing the brick from between your ears and stop reading shit to confirm you own retarded opinions and pick an actually relevant airplane to fanboy over, or just actually learn something. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The 1710 also had a much stouter lower end, and used a pent-roof head, so tended to breathe better than the Merlin and Griffon.

 

It also has a really well thought out, modular valvetrain.

Image related-

1710 sectional

 

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Jeeze J_G_T, you've gone from a "2nd grade" incoherent sentence, to a veritable wall of inchoate blather! What a "twat".

You're "bouncing round" like a broken off valve head - on top of an R-2800 piston, it must be your "self-esteem issues", huh.

 

If anyone needs to "shut the fuck up" about the P-38, its you... 'polishing the turd' - simply serves no purpose.

& ranting abuse is no real substitute for actual primary source links, either, y'know.

 

Didn't you know that North American Aviation didn't want Allison engines in the P/F-82, but yeah, didn't get a choice in it..

GM ( who owned Allison) saw to that, & the Allisons never worked as well in the Twin Mustang, as the Merlin had, as it happens.

 

& the USAAF bosses, who'd invested so much into expensive turbo'd fighter powerplants were forced to admit it was a blind alley.

 

Neither P-38, or P-47 could catch an early P-51 at low level, let alone those diabolical Nazi V1 cruise missiles,

but Tempests could, & they stopped 800+ V1's - from crash diving into long-suffering Londoners.

 

Tempests went on to shoot down every type of FW longnose & LW turbo-jet - in service, & P-38's  didn't...

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Meplat said:

The 1710 also had a much stouter lower end, and used a pent-roof head, so tended to breathe better than the Merlin and Griffon.

 

It also has a really well thought out, modular valvetrain.

Image related-

1710 sectional

 

True Meplat, in those ways, & others, the Allison was a much better design,

& a smoother running, stronger, more durable engine, ( & in TBO) - in service.

 

R-R it appears, was very fortunate in having some excellent development engineers ( & sales team, as always) aboard,

to get that old-fashioned 'sows ear' of a typical old school 'nuts 'n' bolts' British engine - to work ( & sell) - as well as it did.

 

R-R's more innovative engines - like the Vulture, never got anywhere, by contrast.

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17 minutes ago, Domus Acipenseris said:

Nice opinion piece there D.A., but can you post a real in-period Service Evaluation - which validates that "400mph" P-38 claim?

 

Here's one from late 1941, which can, & does - present an actual 400+ mph fighter, the Hawker Typhoon.

No wonder the RAF rejected the P-38...

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/Typhoon_AFDU_Tactical_Trials.pdf

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28 minutes ago, M.B-5 said:

Jeeze J_G_T, you've gone from a "2nd grade" incoherent sentence, to a veritable wall of inchoate blather! What a "twat".

You're "bouncing round" like a broken off valve head - on top of an R-2800 piston, it must be your "self-esteem issues", huh.

 

If anyone needs to "shut the fuck up" about the P-38, its you... 'polishing the turd' - simply serves no purpose.

& ranting abuse is no real substitute for actual primary source links, either, y'know.

 

I'm curious: In the hypothetical event that I had to choose one of you to ban permanently from this forum, which of you do you think I would ban?  You, who've been here a day, or Jeeps, who is a founding member?

Tough one, I know. I'll let you think about it for a little bit.

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Hey boss, if you want to disregard your own "guidelines" - on behalf of your good ol' buddy, & purge me, for quoting him...

...its your call, for sure, even if it does stink of 'old boy priviledge' , & 'abuse of power',

- but yeah, I guess its the Trump era now, for sure, too - huh.

 

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2 minutes ago, M.B-5 said:

Jeeze J_G_T, you've gone from a "2nd grade" incoherent sentence, to a veritable wall of inchoate blather! What a "twat".

You're "bouncing round" like a broken off valve head - on top of an R-2800 piston, it must be your "self-esteem issues", huh.

 

If anyone needs to "shut the fuck up" about the P-38, its you... 'polishing the turd' - simply serves no purpose.

& ranting abuse is no real substitute for actual primary source links, either, y'know.

 

Didn't you know that North American Aviation didn't want Allison engines in the P/F-82, but yeah, didn't get a choice in it..

GM ( who owned Allison) saw to that, & the Allisons never worked as well in the Twin Mustang, as the Merlin had, as it happens.

 

& the USAAF bosses, who'd invested so much into expensive turbo'd fighter powerplants were forced to admit it was a blind alley.

 

Neither P-38, or P-47 could catch an early P-51 at low level, let alone those diabolical Nazi V1 cruise missiles,

but Tempests could, & they stopped 800+ V1's - from crash diving into long-suffering Londoners.

 

Tempests went on to shoot down every type of FW longnose & LW turbo-jet - in service, & P-38's  didn't...

 

 

 

 

 

You may as well just leave. 

 

You can't be bothered to source your bullshit.  You have pissed off just about everyone on the forum and still refuse to admit you were wrong, on ANYTHING! You whine when people are mean to you, after you start it, and then act like an asshole when people give you advice on how to be an adult.  You came onto a forum, frankly where the general aviation knowledge is over your head, poked a bunch of people in the eye with your attitude, made a reading comprehension mistake, no one else made, then acted like a child when it was pointed out,  said some more opinion based crap, with a few sources that do no back your own claims and then acted like an ass when it was pointed out. If you can't take people being snarky, learn to be polite, and for fuck sake, learn to admit your wrong. 

 

 

Playing up the "I don't understand the post" bullshit, is lame since I responded point for point, if you can't figure it out, you really are an idiot. Of course, that's the play you're going with, you think it makes you clever, but everyone else understood the posts just fine, so they conclude you are a drama queen who can't admit when he's wrong.  You are amusing though, Meplat and I haven't had fun batting around squeaky toy like this in years! I know you can't admit you are wrong, it's clear, you've got a Trumpian Ego,  but maybe after you've burned bridges here and on other forums you can take the advice to heart and actually improve yourself, you know so people can stand to be around you, and you might even be able to get laid without paying the Shepard for the best of his flock. 

 

 

What I'm saying is, you don't have to go through life being a douchebag, get that ridiculous ego in check, and stop acting like a know it all, when you really don't know much, and you might do ok in life. 

 

At this point, without posting a source for each of your outlandish or even credible sounding claims, you won't be taken seriously here, you've damaged your credibility with your behavior and I'm not sure you'll ever get it back if your not just outright banned for your antics in this thread when the Sturg checks back in. I'd almost say you were a troll, but your stuff is so, not clever, that would just be sad. 

 

All this assumes you are not actually mentally handicapped if that's the case, sorry bro, I don't like beating up on handicapped people, but it's really hard to tell, with your admitted reading problems and other mental issues.  

 

 

 

 

 

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Here's a question for the tech-heads.

 

The Merlin-powered P-82 'Betty Jo' - flew non-stop from Hawaii to New York, & in record time.

 

Could the Navy's R-2800 powered equivalent, the F7F - beat that time-to-distance record, or even fly that far, non-stop?

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J_G_T now thinks he's the big boss fish here! He claims to be the 'spokesman' for 'everyone' & is itchin' to wield the ban stick.

Can it be - his "self esteem/ego" has been so smalled-out by his own inability to back up his bullshit - or provide valid primary sources? 

 

Seems likely, well either that, or maybe - he's just a mean-as drunk...

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6 minutes ago, M.B-5 said:

J_G_T now thinks he's the big boss fish here! He claims to be the 'spokesman' for 'everyone' & is itchin' to wield the ban stick.

Can it be - his "self esteem/ego" has been so smalled-out by his own inability to back up his bullshit - or provide valid primary sources? 

 

Seems likely, well either that, or maybe - he's just a mean-as drunk...

 

 

You need a cross to nail yourself on?  

 

M.B-5 is going to crucify himself on the cross of the Napier savior to save the denizens of Sturgeon's house from the evil and demented JeepsGunsTanks!!!  All praise the new savior!!

 

In seven days he will rise to smite Trump with his mythical 3500 horsepower Sabre+3!!

:ridethebomb:

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Jeeps understands the temperament of the forum admin, as do I. We're fine with shit talking as long as you back your shit up. You obviously failed to read the forum guidelines on how to manage to fit in here.  IE, provide documents and quality content without commentary at first and ease your way into posting until you have a handle on how this place operates. Coming in and arguing with long time posters who have first hand knowledge of the topic isn't the way to make friends. or even quality enemies.

 

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20 minutes ago, M.B-5 said:

Hey boss, if you want to disregard your own "guidelines" - on behalf of your good ol' buddy, & purge me, for quoting him...

...its your call, for sure, even if it does stink of 'old boy priviledge' , & 'abuse of power',

- but yeah, I guess its the Trump era now, for sure, too - huh.

 

You think you're Han fucking Solo, but you're really Jar-Jar, buddy.

 

What you don't know is that Jeeps is the only reason you are still allowed around here. So maybe you should be nice to him, or at least keep him entertained.


 

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No, he's just echoing what everyone else is thinking and not saying.

 

Speaking as one of the members here who isn't a world war 2 everything expert, yet gets along just fine in this forum because I KNOW and accept that i don't know shit compared to these guys! I can safely say that this is an amazing place to pull up a chair and actually learn some stuff from people who know their stuff. They have happily answered my dumb questions on more than one occasion in very friendly ways, so it's safe to say that if you're triggering this sort of response it's because you're being a fucking douchebag.

 

 

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Just now, Belesarius said:

Jeeps understands the temperament of the forum admin, as do I. We're fine with shit talking as long as you back your shit up. You obviously failed to read the forum guidelines on how to manage to fit in here.  IE, provide documents and quality content without commentary at first and ease your way into posting until you have a handle on how this place operates. Coming in and arguing with long time posers who have first hand knowledge of the topic isn't the way to make friends. or even quality enemies.

 

Yeah fixed that for you.. L.O.L...

 

Actually boss, I tried to find your "guidelines" at your suggestion, using the 'search function' - but nothing doin'...

However, aint the whole 'grandmasters/mean-girls' clique, bend-over for initiation newbie,  schtick - kinda last decade, already?

 

I'll take the good ol' 'Pepsi Challenge' on the veracity of the sources I've linked - any day of the fungin' week.

 

(& how is it - that the likes of J_G_T gets to vent an angry abusive tirade, rather than actually try to debunk my assertions?

Is it because he's tried/failed, but can't admit it?) 

 

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