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Xoon

Education and throwing away your life.

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This is a thread for discussing education.

 

 

Created to avoid derailing the Post election thread.

 

 

Keep it civil and be high in openness. 
 

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On 26.11.2017 at 3:19 PM, Alzoc said:

 

I would say that it's fairly balanced between the two here.

Our current president is openly liberal (both sociologically and economically) and believe in meritocracy, saying that we  must aim not for egalitarism but rather making sure to give a way/chance for everybody to get out of their situation on their own.

But egalitarism have always been deeply rooted as an idea in France, we still have amongst the last socialist and communist party in Europe (even if they are slowly dying).

I believe social mobility is important too, but no more than 20%. 

 

Though, there are a lot of big socialist parties in the west, we have 3 in Norway.

 

 

On 26.11.2017 at 3:19 PM, Alzoc said:

Although I'm not well versed in this matter, IQ have it's own bias too.

We still haven't reached a consensus on the definition of "intelligence"

So basing a system on IQ could work, but would also discard a number of valuable people at the same time and would be viewed as a totalitarist regime by the population.

And totalitarist regimes never last long.

IQ is the best indicator of success we have found. Meaning, that it has the biggest impact on your life, and is set in stone from birth. 

 

But yes, it should not be the only indicator, as we still we people high in IQ that do nothing in their life or even worse than the average person.

 

 

On 26.11.2017 at 3:19 PM, Alzoc said:

Well private schools are authorized in France but since they have a convention with the state to be able to deliver the same degree than public schools, the program is determined by the state so pedagogy wise private schools have next to no liberty.

They do have the liberty to choose who they'll hire however (contrary to public school).

It would be interesting to do a experiment where private school got free reign in a limited region or education class. 

 

On 26.11.2017 at 3:19 PM, Alzoc said:

Most people who put their kids in private education do it to give them a religious education since it's strictly forbidden in public school (and I'm happy it is).

The others chose privates schools in order to avoid their local public schools which happen to have a particularly bad reputation (but you can ask for a derogation to go to another public school anyway).

This is quite normal in Norway too. The religious studies here however are main subjects and pretty bad. And most students hate them since they don't really provide a good insight into religions and do no serve any purpose for the average student. 

 

 

On 26.11.2017 at 3:19 PM, Alzoc said:

Here the budgets for schools are allocated by the state and managed by local government representatives:

 

-Primary shcools are managed by the city/village

-Collèges (part one of secondary education) are managed by "départements" (sub division of regions)

-Lycées (part two of secondary education) are managed by regions

-University are managed by an elected president working at the university and report to the ministry of research and higher education

-Grandes écoles are managed by a president appointed directly by the tutoring minister (Energy, Industry, Economics etc)

 

Their budgets are allocated by the state and decided by a number of parameters amongst them being the number of student, but the catch is since all of them are public organization they are strictly forbidden to make a profit.

The allocated budget must be spent within the year, the excess will simply go back to the state's chest.

Budgets coming from industrial partnership are different but how this money is used is strictly controlled (you can't use it for anything else than the original purpose).

The rule that unspent money goes back to the state is a very stupid rule I have found. What actually happens is that the school aims to use up all the money, often buying useless things or spending them carelessly. The middle school in my area is a great example of that. 

 

 

 

Pardon me for the very late response, but I have been very busy lately and have not found the time to create a new thread. 

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1 hour ago, Xoon said:

It would be interesting to do a experiment where private school got free reign in a limited region or education class.

Why not, give a free pass on what kind of pedagogy to apply over the course of a few year, and compare result with a standardized exam at the end.

 

1 hour ago, Xoon said:

The rule that unspent money goes back to the state is a very stupid rule I have found. What actually happens is that the school aims to use up all the money, often buying useless things or spending them carelessly. The middle school in my area is a great example of that.

 

Well it comes from the idea that the public service is here to serve the people, not make profit.

Anyway the schools are in general more underfunded than the contrary, so any left over money is in general used on sensible purchases.

 

1 hour ago, Xoon said:

Pardon me for the very late response, but I have been very busy lately and have not found the time to create a new thread. 

 

No problem

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12 minutes ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

Putting faith in IQ testing standards is a sure fire way to weed out those of low IQ.

Well, you have to do it properly and in such a way that people will not feel superior and discriminate against the lower IQ people. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

Why not, give a free pass on what kind of pedagogy to apply over the course of a few year, and compare result with a standardized exam at the end.

Maybe doing it in a selected exclusion zone so that it can be directly compared. 

 

12 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

Well it comes from the idea that the public service is here to serve the people, not make profit.

Anyway the schools are in general more underfunded than the contrary, so any left over money is in general used on sensible purchases.

I am thinking about cases like renovating the school. Instead of keeping it for later, they spend it all, because or else the government takes it back.

 

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Obviously, the only sensible thing to do is to ruthlessly weed out those with an IQ below one SD above the mean, and mark them forever as members of an underclass only suitable for menial tasks and never responsible for any of the important decisions.

 

That way, your society will reap the benefits of the sort of peculiar ignorance and shortsightedness that only afflicts very smart people, and not ever have to suffer the burden of such horridly banal things like experience, intuition, or pragmatism.

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13 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

Obviously, the only sensible thing to do is to ruthlessly weed out those with an IQ below one SD above the mean, and mark them forever as members of an underclass only suitable for menial tasks and never responsible for any of the important decisions.

 

That way, your society will reap the benefits of the sort of peculiar ignorance and shortsightedness that only afflicts very smart people, and not ever have to suffer the burden of such horridly banal things like experience, intuition, or pragmatism.

In this new Utopian society, the Right People of Tolerable Intelligence can arm themselves with Scout Rifles against ghastly rebellion, a weapon far too sophisticated for the common low-person mongrel to comprehend. 

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You have to be pretty damn smart to really figure out how to take stupid to epic levels...

 

Dumb people fizzle before entire ammunition ships explode and level a working seaport LOL

 

Smart people drive the stupid all the way into the end zone

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On 12/8/2017 at 2:05 PM, Sturgeon said:

Obviously, the only sensible thing to do is to ruthlessly weed out those with an IQ below one SD above the mean, and mark them forever as members of an underclass only suitable for menial tasks and never responsible for any of the important decisions.

 

That way, your society will reap the benefits of the sort of peculiar ignorance and shortsightedness that only afflicts very smart people, and not ever have to suffer the burden of such horridly banal things like experience, intuition, or pragmatism.

 

Clearly we just need to know whether the students can understand Rick and Morty to determine if they are part if the underclass.

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On 12/8/2017 at 11:39 AM, Xoon said:

IQ is the best indicator of success we have found. Meaning, that it has the biggest impact on your life, and is set in stone from birth. 

 

But yes, it should not be the only indicator, as we still we people high in IQ that do nothing in their life or even worse than the average person.

 

I'd be interested to see sourcing on IQ being set in stone from birth.

 

I'd also be interested in entertaining the notion that IQ is criticized for a bunch of things that make it an imperfect match for natural intellectual aptitude, but that increase its capability as an indicator of success. Rather than just saying that IQ isn't a perfect indicator of natural intellectual aptitude and trying to come up with something better at that, do that with an eye towards looking at IQ's imperfections and what they say about society.

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On 26.12.2017 at 4:47 PM, xthetenth said:

 

I'd be interested to see sourcing on IQ being set in stone from birth.

 

I'd also be interested in entertaining the notion that IQ is criticized for a bunch of things that make it an imperfect match for natural intellectual aptitude, but that increase its capability as an indicator of success. Rather than just saying that IQ isn't a perfect indicator of natural intellectual aptitude and trying to come up with something better at that, do that with an eye towards looking at IQ's imperfections and what they say about society.

http://medcraveonline.com/JNSK/JNSK-01-00023.php

Here is one source. 

 

When I said "set in stone" I meant that there was no reliable way of permanently increasing your IQ past small amounts.  You could of course malnutrition, poison and damage a baby to make it's IQ drop. Just so that is clear. 

 

Well, the big question is, what is intelligence? 

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For a non-snarky answer, it's not something that can be definitively nailed down to a single number. I'm not familiar with specific IQ tests, but based on other tests I've taken (SAT), they measure a lot of how good you are at taking the test.

 

IIRC they (the people who offered the SAT) used to say you couldn't improve your score by studying to game the test, but it appears they finally realized what a load of crap that is.

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27 minutes ago, LostCosmonaut said:

For a non-snarky answer, it's not something that can be definitively nailed down to a single number. I'm not familiar with specific IQ tests, but based on other tests I've taken (SAT), they measure a lot of how good you are at taking the test.

 

IIRC they (the people who offered the SAT) used to say you couldn't improve your score by studying to game the test, but it appears they finally realized what a load of crap that is.

I taught the ACT and SAT For 3 years to high schoolers. I can speak at length of how the tests have changed. 

 

But, the one unifying arc? 

 

If you want your kid to do well on these tests, they had better have a book in their hand as soon as they learn to read. Kids that enjoy reading and do it for fun (in any manner, fiction, nonfiction, etc) are destined for very high scores on these tests. 

 

One of the first questions I would ask a student is if they enjoyed reading. Those who would say "Yeah, I like some things" were destined for high scores. The sky was the limit. 

 

Those who shrugged their shoulders and wouldn't pick up a book unless threatened were destined for the 70 percentile at the most. I watched this happen again and again. If a parent wants their kid, who doesn't like to read, to get above, say, a 28 on the ACT (out of 36), I would need a magic wand and a pact with Satan.

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