United States Gun Control Megathread

[Sturgeon]

1 minute ago, Waffentrager said:

 

It's horrible and not easy to resolve. But the government there tends to mutually agree its something needing addressing and typically come together in trying new solutions. From what I see, the US is not so mutually agreeing on the problem and how to go about it.

 

Wait, are you seriously arguing that any side in the US does not think mass shootings are a problem? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying.
 

2 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

At least that isn't a plain horrid idea, such as the idea of arming teacher staff.

Why do you think protecting children is a bad idea?
 

[Waffentrager]

4 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Wait, are you seriously arguing that any side in the US does not think mass shootings are a problem? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying.
 

 

Not that it isnt a problem, the fact both parties end up disagreeing with anything the other suggest, ultimately limiting the actual progress thats needed to help stop the problem. That is what I am trying to get across. 

 

4 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

Why do you think protecting children is a bad idea?

 

I don't think I would feel safe knowing my child is going to a class where the teacher has a firearm in their possession, no. 

[Sturgeon]

6 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

Not that it isnt a problem, the fact both parties end up disagreeing with anything the other suggest, ultimately limiting the actual progress thats needed to help stop the problem. That is what I am trying to get across. 

 

Rather, maybe it's stopping either of them from making retarded mistakes, eh?

 

6 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

I don't think I would feel safe knowing my child is going to a class where the teacher has a firearm in their possession, no. 

 

But you would feel safe knowing that someone with a gun could come into the school at any time and kill as many as they liked, totally unopposed?

Question: Why does "having a firearm in their possession" make them more of a threat to your kids? They could just, you know, kill them regardless, if they wanted to. Don't need a gun to do that when you have a 2-3x weight advantage on the little shits.

[Waffentrager]

3 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Rather, maybe it's stopping either of them from making retarded mistakes, eh?

 

Oh, you're not wrong there. 

 

4 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

But you would feel safe knowing that someone with a gun could come into the school at any time and kill as many as they liked, totally unopposed?

 

I think proper use of law enforcement is an easier and more obvious approach than to give regular citizens who are just child educators a firearm inside the school building. A person with actual training and experience that is not in immediate contact with children seems like a more appropriate situation. Which, I know in my local area at least that seems to be the case (not quite sure if other regions do this?), there is always one Sheriff on duty at school property. 

 

Giving them better training for school shooting situations so they can respond quicker would make me at least more comfortable knowing theres someone adequate to protect my child than a random teacher. 

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

3 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

 

 

I think proper use of law enforcement is an easier and more obvious approach than to give regular citizens who are just child educators a firearm inside the school building.

 

Looks like someone else fell into the, "You want to force teachers to carry firearms!" mantra. 

 

That's been covered before, but the short of it? No, we don't. People can obtain a concealed handgun license in this country. Those who chose to do this are barred, however, from carrying a gun in certain situations where they would usually carry. I know many educators and coaches who have these licenses and carry a gun daily. To the store, mall, at home, where ever.

 

We are advocating that they be allowed to carry, like they do every day, at their place of work. 

 

What we are not advocating is forcing anyone to do anything.  

[Sturgeon]

2 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

 

Oh, you're not wrong there. 

 

 

I think proper use of law enforcement is an easier and more obvious approach than to give regular citizens who are just child educators a firearm inside the school building. A person with actual training and experience that is not in immediate contact with children seems like a more appropriate situation. Which, I know in my local area at least that seems to be the case (not quite sure if other regions do this?), there is always one Sheriff on duty at school property. 

 

Giving them better training for school shooting situations so they can respond quicker would make me at least more comfortable knowing theres someone adequate to protect my child than a random teacher. 

 

Ok, better equipping law enforcement to deal with these attacks I agree with, but you're missing a few things:

 

1. Why do you trust teachers with your kids, but not guns? Especially if they've specifically had training to carry a gun (i.e., a CCW).

 

2. Guns do not convert people into killers. You are not making teachers any more dangerous to your kids by allowing them to become accredited to carry guns, including on school grounds.

 

3. Police do not create uncertainty in the minds of attackers, armed civilians do. The Pulse shooter picked that venue because it had no armed guards. Most shooters do the same. However, they cannot be sure no one inside is armed with a concealed firearm unless you post big signs outside that say " NO GUNS ALLOWED".

[Waffentrager]

3 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

1. Why do you trust teachers with your kids, but not guns? Especially if they've specifically had training to carry a gun (i.e., a CCW).

 

2. Guns do not convert people into killers. You are not making teachers any more dangerous to your kids by allowing them to become accredited to carry guns, including on school grounds.

 

 

I don't have a disliking of firearms. To make that clear. Although accidents can and do happen involving them because of either the person wielding or an interested child not understand the hazardous potential they can produce. A school shouldn't be a place where you have to worry about the possible result of a firearm going off or a child finding it by coincidence. As what happened just recently for instance with a Teacher. Those accidents do not happen with a proper law enforcement officer keeping his arm on person and not in the classroom or in contact with children regularly. 

 

8 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

1. Why do you trust teachers with your kids, but not guns? Especially if they've specifically had training to carry a gun (i.e., a CCW).

 

I trust a teacher because that is their sole purpose in the school. I do not trust someone just because they have a permit allowing a concealed carry. They are still regular civilians, not an active law enforcement employer. That's just a personal preference coming from somewhere where regular every-day people dont have the ability to have an obvious firearm on their hip walking down the isle of a grocery market. Likely just paranoia on my part. 

 

 

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

You are also falling into the trap of thinking that the police are somehow better trained than citizens. 

 

Per capita, police have more negligent discharges of their duty firearms than concealed carry license holders. 

 

And depending on the department, police may only be required to train with their pistol once a year. If at all.

 

I competed in pistol matches for four years. We had police come to shoot with us. And they were always the worst of the bunch. 

 

They were oftentimes cocky, and then they were beaten by a 52 year woman who makes us cookies every other match. 

[Sturgeon]

13 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

I don't have a disliking of firearms. To make that clear. Although accidents can and do happen involving them because of either the person wielding or an interested child not understand the hazardous potential they can produce.

 

Hmmm, I feel like there's an analogy to "education vs. abstinence" here...

 

13 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

A school shouldn't be a place where you have to worry about the possible result of a firearm going off or a child finding it by coincidence.

 

A school shouldn't be a hunting preserve for people, either, yet here we are.

 

14 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

Those accidents do not happen with a proper law enforcement officer keeping his arm on person and not in the classroom or in contact with children regularly

 

Really? LEOs don't have accidents?

 

But anyway, it's weird that you are worried so much about accidents (which kill fewer kids than swimming pools).

 

17 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

I trust a teacher because that is their sole purpose in the school. I do not trust someone just because they have a permit allowing a concealed carry. They are still regular civilians, not an active law enforcement employer. That's just a personal preference coming from somewhere where regular every-day people dont have the ability to have an obvious firearm on their hip walking down the isle of a grocery market. Likely just paranoia on my part. 

 

Nope, sorry, this is nonlogic. Either you trust a teacher with your kids' lives or you don't. The gun makes no difference. If Mr. Balding Spot is willing to shoot your kid, he's also willing to stab, beat, or rape them.

[Waffentrager]

5 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Really? LEOs don't have accidents?

 

Have there been recent cases of officers having their firearms go off in school without the hostile threat in mind? I'm not referring to anything else.

 

8 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

But anyway, it's weird that you are worried so much about accidents (which kill fewer kids than swimming pools).

 

It shouldn't be weird to be concerned for your child's safety regardless of the probability of one common situation against the next. Certainly not when its now common coverage on media. Or maybe I'm doing parenting wrong then to feel a level of concern. 

 

10 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Nope, sorry, this is nonlogic. Either you trust a teacher with your kids' lives or you don't. The gun makes no difference. If Mr. Balding Spot is willing to shoot your kid, he's also willing to stab, beat, or rape them.

 

I trust a teacher to do their job and only their job for the duration the children are there, to learn. I also trust the placed LEO to do their job as well when the situation happens. 

[Sturgeon]

4 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

Have there been recent cases of officers having their firearms go off in school without the hostile threat in mind? I'm not referring to anything else.

 

Yes, almost certainly; it's a country of 300 million people. But accidents are rare.

 

4 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

It shouldn't be weird to be concerned for your child's safety regardless of the probability of one common situation against the next. Certainly not when its now common coverage on media. Or maybe I'm doing parenting wrong then to feel a level of concern. 

 

No, I'm talking about being concerned about one thing and not other things that are potentially more dangerous.

 

4 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

I trust a teacher to do their job and only their job for the duration the children are there, to learn.

 

Then a concealed firearm is no issue at all.

 

4 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

I also trust the placed LEO to do their job as well when the situation happens.

 

Despite the fact that they have a gun? Really? Sure it won't mystically transform then into a killer?

[Donward]

11 minutes ago, Waffentrager said:

 

Have there been recent cases of officers having their firearms go off in school without the hostile threat in mind? I'm not referring to anything else.

 

 

There was one in Virginia/Washington DC just today/yesterday.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/378121-officer-accidentally-discharges-gun-at-washington-area-middle-school

[Sturgeon]

1 minute ago, Donward said:

 

There was one in Virginia/Washington DC just today/yesterday.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/378121-officer-accidentally-discharges-gun-at-washington-area-middle-school

 

Can always count on the incompetence of the police to pull through!

[Waffentrager]

2 minutes ago, Donward said:

 

There was one in Virginia/Washington DC just today/yesterday.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/378121-officer-accidentally-discharges-gun-at-washington-area-middle-school

 

Hm,  I suppose I put too much faith into thinking law enforcement would do better at trying to prevent such things. Thanks for sharing! 

[Sturgeon]

Just now, Waffentrager said:

 

Hm,  I suppose I put too much faith into thinking law enforcement would do better at trying to prevent such things. Thanks for sharing! 

 

Thanks for keeping an open mind with us.

[Waffentrager]

1 minute ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Thanks for keeping an open mind with us.

 

An open mind on a topic I have little to no prior experience with. I do appreciate seeing how others think about the given situation.

[Sturgeon]

1 minute ago, Waffentrager said:

 

An open mind on a topic I have little to no prior experience with. I do appreciate seeing how others think about the given situation.

 

It's a rough world out there. Only person you can count on is yourself.

 

Strong argument for homeschooling, actually.

[Waffentrager]

2 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

It's a rough world out there. Only person you can count on is yourself.

 

Strong argument for homeschooling, actually.

 

Until you want to go to university, homeschooling record doesnt hold up with much credibility where I come from.  

[Sturgeon]

Just now, Waffentrager said:

 

Until you want to go to university, homeschooling record doesnt hold up with much credibility where I come from.  

 

I was homeschooled. It's fine.

[Ulric]

@Waffentrager

 

Another thing to understand is that typical civilian "training" (i use that word loosely, as there is no codified, official training for this, but it is more of a conclusion that is broadly arrived at through critical thinking) is that in an active shooter situation, most concealed carry holders will not try to "hunt down" the shooter for a great number of reasons. Instead, the correct thing to do is to secure yourself and those in your immediate surroundings, and shelter in place until the police arrive. This allows you to have a good understanding of what direction the threat might come from, and if you have a good spot, it will allow you to spot and identify the threat before they are even aware of your presence. The long and short of it is that you secure yourself and set up an ambush in case the perpetrator finds you. There are stories from any number of these incidents where teachers (or on colleges, students) attempt to secure a room by blocking the door with their body, only to receive several bullets for their heroic effort. Allowing teachers to carry would mean that they might be able to defend their class with more than just their body should the shooter come to their room, and potentially end the incident right there.

[Donward]

1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

 

I was homeschooled. It's fine.

It's true.

 

 

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

10 hours ago, Waffentrager said:

 

Until you want to go to university, homeschooling record doesnt hold up with much credibility where I come from.  

That's sad. I'm a good friend with an emergency vet surgeon. She's the best in Houston, TX. And she was homeschooled.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

10 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

 

I was homeschooled. It's fine.

Yeah, he's got a forum and everything!

[Alzoc]

Well I'm under the impression that homeschooling is, like gun ownership, yet another of the US peculiarity for the rest of the world (in terms of proportion of the population that use it).

So it would make sense that if the system is so well developed in the US it's general quality would be good. If it's more common I guess that it must be easier to find advices or associations to help parents as opposed to other country where it is less developed.

 

And since AFAIK all Americans pass the same test when trying to get to college (either SAT or ACT right?), the way you were taught doesn't matter as long as there is a common exam to asses the knowledge of everybody in a fair manner.

[Meplat]

11 hours ago, Waffentrager said:

 

Hm,  I suppose I put too much faith into thinking law enforcement would do better at trying to prevent such things. Thanks for sharing! 

It also saved me from furiously trying to find the pictures I took of the shot up police ranges I've been to.

 

Police ONLY ranges. With holes in the roof, the benches, etc. The Maricopa County range was one of the better ones, as it saw use by FBI and ATF. (Who were notorious for having repeated ND's with their select fire weapons.).