United States Gun Control Megathread

[Sturgeon]

6 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

Well I'm under the impression that homeschooling is, like gun ownership, yet another of the US peculiarity for the rest of the world (in terms of proportion of the population).

So it would make sense that if the system is so well developed in the US it's general quality would be good. If it's more common I guess that it must be easier to find advices or associations to help parents as opposed to other country where it is less developed.

 

And since AFAIK all Americans pass the same test when trying to get to college (either SAT or ACT right?), the way you were taught doesn't matter as long as there is a common exam to asses the knowledge of everybody in a fair manner.

 

Yeah, homeschooling does not result in under-educated people. Quite the opposite, actually.

The common objection to homeschooling in the US is that it does not mold kids according to the same pattern as public schooling does (usually phrased as "socializing" or something similar). IMO that's a feature, not a bug.

[Alzoc]

10 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Yeah, homeschooling does not result in under-educated people. Quite the opposite, actually.

The common objection to homeschooling in the US is that it does not mold kids according to the same pattern as public schooling does (usually phrased as "socializing" or something similar - yeah because public school kids are so well-adjusted). IMO that's a feature, not a bug.

 

I would have though the prime objection would have rather been that it re enforce social reproduction even further than the classic system, in the long run creating a 2 tier educational system (which is IMO already the case when looking at the cost discrepancy between various US school/univeristy).

[Sturgeon]

19 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

 

I would have though the prime objection would have rather been that it re enforce social reproduction even further than the classic system, in the long run creating a 2 tier educational system (which is IMO already the case when looking at the cost discrepancy between various US school/univeristy).

 

Nope. Books are cheap. Homeschooling is pretty cheap.

[Alzoc]

25 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Nope. Books are cheap. Homeschooling is pretty cheap.

 

True but the the quality of said education will depends a lot on the qualification of the person teaching it.

So either (on average) your parents have a high level of education and can help you in your study effectively or they have enough money to hire a tutor.

 

I'm only talking about average here, of course you will always have some kids who will be capable to learn everything they need "just" by reading books and hard work, or parents who even with only basic academical degree will be able to tutor their kids effectively.

But in general parents with a lower socioeconomical status will struggle more helping with their kid's education. And that's IMO the main role of public school, to make sure (or at least try) that everyone have access to quality education regardless of their background.

 

Both system are certainly not antonymous but it is important to make sure that the public school don't get the short end of the stick making it a second rate system (And I don't think that it's the case now)

[Sturgeon]

8 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

True but the the quality of said education will depends a lot on the qualification of the person teaching it.

 

The people who care will homeschool, and the same standards apply for homeschooled kids as anywhere else.

 

8 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

So either (on average) your parents have a high level of education and can help you in your study effectively or they have enough money to hire a tutor.

 

Well, sure. But my parents didn't have very much money at all, and mostly I was left to my own devices with a bunch of books. It's pretty amazing how self-motivated kids can be when you don't crush their souls in school.

 

9 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

I'm only talking about average here, of course you will always have some kids who will be capable to learn everything they need "just" by reading books and hard work, or parents who even with only basic academical degree will be able to tutor their kids effectively.

But in general parents with a lower socioeconomical status will struggle more helping with their kid's education. And that's IMO the main role of public school, to make sure (or at least try) that everyone have access to education regardless of their background.

 

Right, and I'm not saying public school should go away. It needs reform, but in concept it's a good tool for people who lead a certain kind of life (either have to have both parents working, or they're a single parent, or whatever). But if the option is available, homeschooling does consistently produce better results.

 

10 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

 

Both system are certainly not antonymous but it is important to make sure that the public school don't get the short end of the stick making it a second rate system (And I don't think that it's the case now)

 

Well our public schools here in the US certainly are second- or third-rate. It's a sad truth. They badly need reform, and I think (sorry to say) it's the Left that obstructs that the most - though both sides are culpable.

[Ulric]

1 hour ago, Meplat said:

It also saved me from furiously trying to find the pictures I took of the shot up police ranges I've been to.

 

Police ONLY ranges. With holes in the roof, the benches, etc. The Maricopa County range was one of the better ones, as it saw use by FBI and ATF. (Who were notorious for having repeated ND's with their select fire weapons.).

 

Police are pretty low on my list of people that I trust to properly handle a firearm. For them, weapon manipulation is a very small part of their job, and they personally might not be that interested in firearms to begin with. Combine the exposure time they have to firearms with the lack of training on them, and it's a recipe for problems. I'm sure it's been stated before in this thread, but some police officers only fire their weapons once a year for annual qualifications, and the standards are not that high to begin with. It is usually a measure of basic marksmanship, and does but account for any dynamic environments.

 

There are many pervasive myths in broad subject of gun control, with one of them being that the police have some type of magical training and ability with firearms that civilians are unable to achieve, which is why it's dangerous for your everyday people to have guns, and we should just leave it to the police. How often do we hear things like "you're more likely to shoot yourself" and related nonsense when they talk about CCW holders? I specifically used the word magical earlier, because it is a form of magical thinking. The notion that for some inexplicable reason, being a police officer imbues someone with some type of firearms superpower.

[Alzoc]

4 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

The people who care will homeschool, and the same standards apply for homeschooled kids as anywhere else.

 

Personally I would say that the persons who cares will get involved with the education of their kids, regardless of the system they chose.

I've been in the public system for my entire studies and a good part of why I (and my siblings) did rather well is that I had two parents at home ready to help me with my homework after school, especially at young age.

 

But that's a small nuance I make, since purposely choosing homeschooling (which must be quite a time investment for the parents) is already a proof that you care about your kid's education.

 

11 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

and I think (sorry to say) it's the Left that obstructs that the most

 

Well don't be sorry^^

That's your opinion and you know your educational system better than I do.

[Sturgeon]

Just now, Alzoc said:

Well don't be sorry^^

That's your opinion and you know your educational system better than I do.

 

Mostly because about 90% of public school employees are Democrats. It's a big welfare program for them, unfortunately, and whenever anyone tries to stop the gravy train they holler and yell about them being "anti-education".

[Alzoc]

20 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Mostly because about 90% of public school employees are Democrats. It's a big welfare program for them, unfortunately, and whenever anyone tries to stop the gravy train they holler and yell about them being "anti-education".

 

Well most teachers tends to vote left regardless of the country (same apply in France), and here too there is quite a strong corporatism and a widespread idea in the population that most state employee have it easy, especially teachers when considering that they have the same vacations than kids. This idea is not without foundations.

 

However, looking at my father and the amount of time he work at home after his class I would nuance the general idea (though his situation is particular since he was a former researcher who got fed up spending more time looking for money than doing physics).

He's just one example but I had both hard working teacher who didn't counted their hours (especially given their rather low pay for their education level) and lazy ones who just recycled the same course year after year without paying much attention to pedagogy.

 

Personally I'm center-left (voted Macron by conviction) and while I think that education should stay our main expenditure post (around 20% of the State's budget), I also think that the money spent here could be used more efficiently (in the sense that there is too much reform pilling up and that I'm not too sure about the coherence of the whole).

[Ulric]

It would be really cool to split this off into it's own topic so we could really dig into it without distracting from the original topic.

[Meplat]

3 hours ago, Ulric said:

 

Police are pretty low on my list of people that I trust to properly handle a firearm. For them, weapon manipulation is a very small part of their job, and they personally might not be that interested in firearms to begin with. Combine the exposure time they have to firearms with the lack of training on them, and it's a recipe for problems. I'm sure it's been stated before in this thread, but some police officers only fire their weapons once a year for annual qualifications, and the standards are not that high to begin with. It is usually a measure of basic marksmanship, and does but account for any dynamic environments.

 

There are many pervasive myths in broad subject of gun control, with one of them being that the police have some type of magical training and ability with firearms that civilians are unable to achieve, which is why it's dangerous for your everyday people to have guns, and we should just leave it to the police. How often do we hear things like "you're more likely to shoot yourself" and related nonsense when they talk about CCW holders? I specifically used the word magical earlier, because it is a form of magical thinking. The notion that for some inexplicable reason, being a police officer imbues someone with some type of firearms superpower.

In this vein..

Most of the handguns I fixed early on in my "professional" firearms career (well, got working as nothing was really broken) were owned by police officers.

 

The vast majority were simply gummed up with lint and dried out WD-40.  One had a wad of dessicated chewing gum stuck to the hammer spur, preventing the piece from firing DA or SA.

One old K frame Smith had the most battered crane I'd ever seen, caused by it's owner "slapping" the cylinder open and closed.

 

Maintenance as far as the majority of these folks were concerned, was douching the piece with WD-40 or 3 in 1 oil, followed by wiping it with an old t-shirt.

[Sturgeon]

[Waffentrager]

10 hours ago, Ulric said:

 

Police are pretty low on my list of people that I trust to properly handle a firearm. For them, weapon manipulation is a very small part of their job, and they personally might not be that interested in firearms to begin with. Combine the exposure time they have to firearms with the lack of training on them, and it's a recipe for problems.

 

5 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Did some looking into, surprised how much law enforcement stateside has had repeated incidents. Brings me to the question about firearm training, do regular officers and 'sheriffs' undergo different training routines? At first glance it looks like everyday LEO's lack the indepth training I presumed them to have about weapon handling. 

[Donward]

Useful to the discussion. A Pew Research study on the rate at which police officers fire their weapons. It's worth an entire read.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/

 

Only 27 percent of LEOs have EVER fired their weapons in the line of duty over their entire career.

 

Other take aways are that those who do fire their weapons tend to be white, male, and in favor of gun rights although only by a slight margin. They also tend to be military veterans and work in larger cities.

 

 

Those numbers assault weapons are notable considering that just over 1 in 4 officers favor banning them. 2/3s of cops oppose banning them.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/23/police-public-differ-on-key-issues-but-align-on-others/

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

45 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

According to the cnn article this was a peace officer working as a temp/guest teacher. 

 

Reminds me of the DEA officer incident...

[Legiondude]

1 hour ago, Waffentrager said:

Did some looking into, surprised how much law enforcement stateside has had repeated incidents

The day after the Florida shooting, a complete separate deputy from Broward County's Sheriff's Office shot himself in the leg at a private school

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

13 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

 

The people who care will homeschool, and the same standards apply for homeschooled kids as anywhere else.

 

 

Well, sure. But my parents didn't have very much money at all, and mostly I was left to my own devices with a bunch of books. It's pretty amazing how self-motivated kids can be when you don't crush their souls in school.

 

 

Right, and I'm not saying public school should go away. It needs reform, but in concept it's a good tool for people who lead a certain kind of life (either have to have both parents working, or they're a single parent, or whatever). But if the option is available, homeschooling does consistently produce better results.

 

 

Well our public schools here in the US certainly are second- or third-rate. It's a sad truth. They badly need reform, and I think (sorry to say) it's the Left that obstructs that the most - though both sides are culpable.

 

 

US schools public are about turning out mindless little social justice warriors, who were supposed to vote Democrat, but now are going after their keeper/creators,  science and freedom of speech instead. Reading, writing, and arithmetic are secondary thoughts, to be managed, so they do not interfere with the socialists er, I mean LGBTQAIP(P is for Pedophile)  agenda.  Since science is a white male power game, it had to go, what did science ever get us anyway, amiright?!

 

 

The left can no longer call Christians anti-science because Christians believe in biological differences in the sexes. Plus, most anti vaccers are lefty lunes too, so they were already attacking science there too.  

 

 

[Legiondude]

Voices of a generation.

Fuck.

[Sturgeon]

15 minutes ago, Legiondude said:

Voices of a generation.

Fuck.

 

Both of those places are gun free zones, and also wasn't there a guy shooting a gun right outside the White House recently?

 

And I mean, it's not like there aren't shitloads of armed guards and plainclothes officers at the White House, or anything...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

'Gun Free Zones' in an armed country seem like a bloody silly idea to me.

[Ulric]

There are some places that make sense, and they are exclusively places that have their own dedicated, heavily armed and trained security forces to monitor and control access.

 

One job that would have been interesting back when I was a security guard would have been a post at a nuclear power plant. While the company I worked for had DOE contracts, there are no facilities anywhere near me....

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Just now, Ulric said:

and they are exclusively places that have their own dedicated, heavily armed and trained security forces to monitor and control access.

 

See that kinda falls outside the concept 'Gun Free' for me.

 

We took this sort of dip-shittery to extremes.....Lee Rigby paid for it.

 

Do not go down that road.

 

Your guns guarantee the safety of more people than you may realise.....Keep them handy.

[Ulric]

You are preaching to the choir. I will always have a rifle, regardless of what any piece of paper may have written on it.

[Meplat]

2 hours ago, Legiondude said:

Voices of a generation.

Fuck.

https://imgur.com/2vK56oO

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/under-heavily-armed-police-guard-bernie-sanders-addresses-anti-gun-rally/ar-BBKdx5R

 

Under Heavily-Armed Police Guard, Bernie Sanders Addresses Anti-Gun Rally

 

 

 

© Provided by The Daily Caller, Inc. Bernie Sanders (Facebook)

A national school walk-out was held today by students protesting gun violence across the country, and Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders joined students in DC marching on the U.S. capitol.

 

So did his armed guards.

 

In multiple locations, students hit the streets and parking lots in their respective school districts to “walk out'” in solidarity with the Parkland students who are calling for more gun control after their school attacked by a deranged gunman. 17 students died in the attack. The former presidential candidate was part of a group of progressive congressmen addressing the Washington, DC march.

 

Sanders began a live stream of his speech on his Facebook page, which featured him wading through the crowd of cheering students and shaking hands. As Sanders traveled through the gun-control crowd, at least three heavily armed Capitol police officers could be seen protecting him and clearing a way for the Senator through the students. Multiple times in the live feed, the police can be heard asking the students to step back and move away from Sanders.

In his megaphoned-speech to the crowd, Sanders called for the “courage to take out the NRA” and common sense gun control.