Jump to content
Sturgeon's House
2805662

What do we know about the Chinese 5.8 x 42 mm?

Recommended Posts

There doesn’t seem to be much out there on modern Chinese service ammunition...does it have a penetrator (ala SS109)? What’s its BC? Is there an AP variant?

 

Thanks :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, 2805662 said:

There doesn’t seem to be much out there on modern Chinese service ammunition...does it have a penetrator (ala SS109)? What’s its BC? Is there an AP variant?

 

Thanks :)

 

"does it have a penetrator (ala SS109)?" Yes, every single round since the original DBP87 with the exception of some concept match grade round named DBU141 has a hard cast lead over hardened tool steel core. It's shorter in the DBP87/95 but very long in the DVP88 and DBP10.

 

XtWgV4S.jpg

 

Keqzdro.jpg And the odd man out.

 

The middle one is actually DBP95, however the only actual differences between DBP87 and 95 are the the powder used (It's burns cleaner) and the primer. (from corrosive to non corrosive) so it's a very small change.

 

"What’s its BC?" for which rounds exactly? either way I'll have to give rough calculations on some unless another member already has them.

 

"Is there an AP variant?" yes, DVC12, 85gr projectile with a hollow tip and a 54gr Tungsten core with a small lead ball between the tip and the nose to act as a "cap" and keep it stable in flight, appears to use the same very thick, hard H90 alloy jacket as DBP10.

 

EQc18c3.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks @Khand-e 

 

Lots of good information there. 

 

You mentioned cleaner-burning powder: I’m assuming it’s double based propellant?

 

Not having have much experience with lacquered steel cases (literally 25 rounds through a FAMAS), but the rapid build up of residue in the chamber surprised me. Is this an issue with 5.8x42mm?

 

How about tracers for machine gun use? For example, the US issues belts of 200 rounds (four rounds of M855 ball/one round M856 tracer/M27 link) for its SAW. Is there a Chinese equivalent?

 

Thanks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 2805662 said:

Thanks @Khand-e 

 

Lots of good information there. 

 

You mentioned cleaner-burning powder: I’m assuming it’s double based propellant?

 

Not having have much experience with lacquered steel cases (literally 25 rounds through a FAMAS), but the rapid build up of residue in the chamber surprised me. Is this an issue with 5.8x42mm?

 

How about tracers for machine gun use? For example, the US issues belts of 200 rounds (four rounds of M855 ball/one round M856 tracer/M27 link) for its SAW. Is there a Chinese equivalent?

 

Thanks. 

 

"You mentioned cleaner-burning powder: I’m assuming it’s double based propellant?"

 

They all are, the propellant used in DBP87 just happened to be exceptionally dirty which caused excessive cleaning required or fouling problems would appear quite fast so they came up with a new blend that performed the same but wasn't damn near black powder levels of filth. They didn't change the primer type from 87 to 95 per say, still a double slotted berdan primer, they just switched to a non corrosive blend once again for ease of cleaning issues. (Corrosive is still commonly seen in other calibers as the advantage of corrosive being able to last for decades in storage and still fire reliably was long preferred.)

 

"Not having have much experience with lacquered steel cases (literally 25 rounds through a FAMAS), but the rapid build up of residue in the chamber surprised me. Is this an issue with 5.8x42mm?"

 

There's different reasons the French and the Chinese use steel cases, the French used it in the FAMAS because the action on it will brutalize soft brass cases to the point it will eventually stop the gun from functioning outright, this causes a side effect where, since even softer steels are much harder and less malleable than brass, they don't conform to the chamber as tightly when fired so, as a result some residue will slip by, it wouldn't shock me if the same issues applied to Chinese steel cased ammo but I'm not sure how hard it is compared to French Steel intended for the FAMAS.

 

But, to answer a question you may have on the difference between why it's used, it's simply because steel is cheaper than brass by a significant margin, hell, the US Armed Forces have looked into steel casings several times for the same reason and I think still are but it's never gone anywhere, @Sturgeon knows more about the various US steel cased drives than I do. (note the DBP10 appears on the outside to be copper, but it's simply washed in copper to feed and extract easier and is still steel underneath, same concept behind why most high end defensive ammunition in the US is brass plated with Nickel.)

 

"How about tracers for machine gun use? For example, the US issues belts of 200 rounds (four rounds of M855 ball/one round M856 tracer/M27 link) for its SAW. Is there a Chinese equivalent?"

 

They use the same 4-1 ratio that the US Armed Forces do for tracers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't FAMAS have a fluted chamber? That'd be bad for fouling, a normal chamber (irregardless of cartridge material) should do a much better job of keeping soot away from the chamber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Xlucine said:

Doesn't FAMAS have a fluted chamber? That'd be bad for fouling, a normal chamber (irregardless of cartridge material) should do a much better job of keeping soot away from the chamber

 

:AHDOTCOM:

 

 

But yes, the FAMAS does have a fluted chamber.

 

It's bad for fouling in the sense that a lot more carbon gets caked on the insides of the gun, but according to Bill Alexander that's not really a bad thing.  The sooty, carbonaceous buildup from gun gas has a fairly low coefficient of friction, so it's really unlikely to stop the gun from operating.  Indeed, HK apparently advertised their roller guns as being "self-cleaning" because they would dust off the top round of the magazine with a puff of hot gas and a light, solid lubricant.  According to him, they put flutes in the MP-5's barrel because they were convinced that the guns blowing a bit of soot around inside the receiver was a good thing.

 

I guess it's possible for so much of the soot to build up that it freezes the gun, but I am given to understand that this is unlikely with the firing schedules an assault rifle undergoes.  With a machine gun it might be a different story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My concern with lacquered steel cartridges and reliability is more the potential for lacquer residue from the cartridges themselves being deposited in the chamber causing failures (unique to lacquered steel), not carbon fouling from the propellant (common to all propellants, albeit to differing degrees).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/31/2018 at 10:14 PM, 2805662 said:

My concern with lacquered steel cartridges and reliability is more the potential for lacquer residue from the cartridges themselves being deposited in the chamber causing failures (unique to lacquered steel), not carbon fouling from the propellant (common to all propellants, albeit to differing degrees).

 

That is more or less a myth, actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/4/2018 at 9:13 PM, Sturgeon said:

 

That is more or less a myth, actually.

 

It's not a myth so much as a misunderstanding of something that actually does happen and is misattributed to be caused by lacquer residue.

 

If you go out and fire off a few mags of steel case and then switch to brass cased ammo without cleaning the chamber you will often start getting failures etc.

 

The reason is that the steel case lets a little fouling back into the chamber wall area but the steel and lacquer combo is slippery enough to slide over it while the friction generated on the brass cased ammo from the fouling is sufficient to create failures in some cases..

 

It's not caused by lacquer residue though, just plain old material science.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×