Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) and Euro Main Battle Tank (EMBT)

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, Lord_James said:

 

The MBT-70 wasn’t in need when it was being designed? And after it died, both countries involved didn’t have to upgrade older tanks to stay competitive? 

 

It is the same scenario, just 50 years later. 

Less of a need than today, because the tanks they would replace would be only about a decade old when the program was already shut down.

The MBT-70 program began somewhere in the 60's and cancelled in 1971.

The M60, on the other hand, was introduced in early 60's. I think 1960 was first unit delivery.

Today you're looking at tanks whose core structure was designed close to 50 years ago, and their structural age is in the 20-40 years range on average.

 

The Cold War is not a serious factor here. An arms race exists even today, and the likelihood to use these tanks on the battlefield has remained high enough.

 

If neither Germany nor France field a production-ready tank by the set deadline, they are basically going to get a British castration for their armored forces.

Oh and that's not only going to be them, but all their other European allies, unless they in turn choose American tanks. In which case a huge economical loss in the defense market is to be expected.

 

Had they set a deployment date for 2025, and not 2035/2040, then I would totally agree with you that there is room for failure and reconsideration.

[Xlucine]

21 hours ago, SH_MM said:

 

Altay?

 

Licence production isn't the same thing as joint development - Altay, K-X and Merk all relied on external designs, but they were exclusively national programs (unless the US buys the K-X or merk, or SK buys the altay). This is a key distinction, because the infighting over workshare and who's requirements to design the vehicle to is generally fatal for a proper international program.

 

16 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Less of a need than today, because the tanks they would replace would be only about a decade old when the program was already shut down.

The MBT-70 program began somewhere in the 60's and cancelled in 1971.

The M60, on the other hand, was introduced in early 60's. I think 1960 was first unit delivery.

Today you're looking at tanks whose core structure was designed close to 50 years ago, and their structural age is in the 20-40 years range on average.

 

The Cold War is not a serious factor here. An arms race exists even today, and the likelihood to use these tanks on the battlefield has remained high enough.

 

If neither Germany nor France field a production-ready tank by the set deadline, they are basically going to get a British castration for their armored forces.

Oh and that's not only going to be them, but all their other European allies, unless they in turn choose American tanks. In which case a huge economical loss in the defense market is to be expected.

 

Had they set a deployment date for 2025, and not 2035/2040, then I would totally agree with you that there is room for failure and reconsideration.

 

With MBT-70, the threat was rapidly changing from T-55/62's (which M-60 was designed against, possibly not even considering the 115mm) to T-64/72/80 (along with big improvements in and proliferation of ATGMs). Leo 2 and Leclerc were designed against T-72's, and the threat is changing to T-72B3 mod 2016 mk53 (until we see volume production of the T-15)

[Gun Ready]

On 6/10/2019 at 10:57 PM, Mighty_Zuk said:

I knew you would bring up the Euroturtle program, but I still insist that it is not an equivalent.

 

As I've said, it's about the timeline.

The MGCS deployment date is 2035 for Germany. 2040 for France.

If we are generous and pessimistic, it means development of the tank commences around 2025-2027. A more realistic option would be 2030.

I believe an accurate timeline was posted somewhere but can't find it.

 

That means that if the program is killed even at the earliest stage of development, both France and Germany, plus any country that depends on the program, will have to either buy competing designs off the shelf, or retire tanks without proper replacement, or keep tanks in service despite becoming nearly obsolete and beyond their projected end-of-life point.

 

[Gun Ready]

 

MGCS timeline https://imgur.com/gallery/sP8DRpK

This is the timeline they intend to use today. But note that they lost time and didn't even start the study program they are calling demonstrator phase. It's only a bunch of paper studies. The key issues are as seen at

MGCS timeline https://imgur.com/gallery/sP8DRpK

Which are in priority:

SDRI and target allocation

Effectors, 120mm+ caliber, could be 130 or 140 and HVM hyper velocity missile (IMO nobody knows for what target type that is necessary, may be against Führerbunker from a MBT type platform

C3I for command and control of UGVs and UAVs

Mobility issues for autonomous, robotic driving with some sort of Kinetic and artificial intelligence for hybrid drive with drive by wire, rubber track, semi-active suspension, and so on

And all packed in low weight protection, active, reactive and passive gaining highest survivability in a compact fighting compartment.

Greetings from starwars on earth in the next decade!!! Comments to this very welcome!!!

 

 

 

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

37 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

rubber track

 

So the MGCS is targeting a weight of around 40 tons? That seems to be the limit for rubber band track.

[Alzoc]

1 hour ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

 

So the MGCS is targeting a weight of around 40 tons? That seems to be the limit for rubber band track.

 

Spoiler

 

The way I understand this slide, the rubber track could be used for the Commando/Control-platform which may be lighter than the effector-platform carrying a main gun (thus maybe allowing it to be light enough to use rubber tracks)

[Gun Ready]

http://imgur.com/gallery/TkK1YpI

This is planned to be only applied for the one common command and control platform (Eine Kommando/Steuerplattform), see also imgur link.

[Gun Ready]

3 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The way I understand this slide, the rubber track could be used for the Commando/Control-platform which may be lighter than the effector-plattform with a main gun (thus maybe allowing it to be light enough to use rubber tracks)

@Alzoc fully agree! Could be a PUMA like vehicle with maybe 4 operators for UGV and UAV. Then the vehicle weight could be 40 tons.

[skylancer-3441]

2 hours ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

 

targeting a weight of around 40 tons? That seems to be the limit for rubber band track.

There were news recently on US Army's market survey (Request For Information) on rubber/composite band tracks, preferably segmented, - 1) available now for 36 metric tons vehicle, and - 2) available in several years time if chosen for development, for 45-54 metric tons vehicle
No idea whether they've found anything, but it shows that at least some people do not see current weight limit for such tracks as one set in stone

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 hours ago, skylancer-3441 said:

There were news recently on US Army's market survey (Request For Information) on rubber/composite band tracks, preferably segmented, - 1) available now for 36 metric tons vehicle, and - 2) available in several years time if chosen for development, for 45-54 metric tons vehicle
No idea whether they've found anything, but it shows that at least some people do not see current weight limit for such tracks as one set in stone

And IIRC, the Lynx KF41 has a GVW of 50 tons with rubber band tracks.

[David Moyes]

Soucy Composite Rubber Track:

4:05 - Current 45-47t. metric limit
6:35 - In the next 5 years, 55t.

Although it is a continuous band track.

[Mighty_Zuk]

32 minutes ago, David Moyes said:

Soucy Composite Rubber Track:

4:05 - Current 45-47t. metric limit
6:35 - In the next 5 years, 55t.

Although it is a continuous band track.

So I was wrong on the Lynx. Thanks.

[SH_MM]

The Lynx uses tracks from DST, not the ones from Soucy.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 minute ago, SH_MM said:

The Lynx uses tracks from DST, not the ones from Soucy.

No doubt. But Soucy's current position is a good refernce point since they're one of the biggest names in rubber composite tracks.

All I needed apparently is a short google image search to see the steel tracks on the Lynx.

[SH_MM]

Lynx KF41 has only been showcased with lightweight metal tracks, but Lynx KF31 has also been showcased with DST's segmented rubber tracks.

 

 

However weight limit seems to be 42 metric tons for their current rubber track system.

[Gun Ready]

Any news within the community to EMBT and MGCS. It's quite quiet around these stuff, isn't it?!?

[Serge]

No news. 

[Rico]

Well, there is some news that RLS wants to go ahead with the Lynx platform and create the MBT based on that. So 1 platform for IFV, MBT, support vehicles etc.

From my perspective this makes pretty much sense since it is the same idea for the boxer (everything modular but based on one platform).

But since KNDS wants to have some piece of the cake as well this is slowing down the whole project.

[Rico]

Besides there is a guy on youtube telling some news about is but I won't call it a source worth to trust.

 

https://youtu.be/EEmpesmFegM

[Serge]

Lynx platform can’t be used for the MGCS. The concept is not stabilised enough to quote anything. 

 

On the other hand :

- there is a place for an other solution than the MGCS ;

- there are opportunities for a « light » tank. Around 40t. This way, RLS can adapt its Lynx. 

[AssaultPlazma]

On 6/12/2019 at 4:17 PM, SH_MM said:

Lynx KF41 has only been showcased with lightweight metal tracks, but Lynx KF31 has also been showcased with DST's segmented rubber tracks.

 

 

However weight limit seems to be 42 metric tons for their current rubber track system.

 

 

Why does it have that long rectangular casing around the gun? 

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

9 minutes ago, AssaultPlazma said:

 

 

Why does it have that long rectangular casing around the gun? 

 

It's supposed to stop the barrel from moving around, and make the gun more accurate.

[Serge]

I don’t know the English translation but it’s used to better control the heat bending of the barrel. 

[FORMATOSE]

2 hours ago, Serge said:

I don’t know the English translation but it’s used to better control the heat bending of the barrel. 

 

Heatshield ?

[Alzoc]

1 hour ago, Sovngard said:

Heatshield ? 

 

Thermal shroud