Jump to content
Sturgeon's House
Akula_941

2018 ZhuHai Air show thread but it's all tonks and munitions

Recommended Posts

Some kind of APS-proof tank destroyer to take out IFV's & bigger tanks from the rear? I'm not sure what it provides that a butt-load of ATGM's (for equal weight as the 40mm & ammo) wouldn't

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2018 at 4:40 PM, Xlucine said:

Some kind of APS-proof tank destroyer to take out IFV's & bigger tanks from the rear? I'm not sure what it provides that a butt-load of ATGM's (for equal weight as the 40mm & ammo) wouldn't

But it's cute!

 

And honestly, in an urban combat scenario with light infantry, it's mobile light and cheap firepower

Not everything needs to be whacked with a large calibre HEAT warhead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A ~10kg ATGM is a lot more mobile (and probably cheaper unless you're dealing with dozens of targets), and something like a small recoilless rifle will be cheaper and lighter. It is cute, but I can't see any problem it's particularly good at solving

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Xlucine said:

A ~10kg ATGM is a lot more mobile (and probably cheaper unless you're dealing with dozens of targets), and something like a small recoilless rifle will be cheaper and lighter. It is cute, but I can't see any problem it's particularly good at solving

I think a lot of the footage in Syria indicates that cannons are pretty useful things to have around. The sheer number of technicals indicates that light infantry support cannons are handy to have around. The Chinese are apparently fielding these Lynx things in significant numbers, so I guess they are finding them useful.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Belesarius said:

I think a lot of the footage in Syria indicates that cannons are pretty useful things to have around. The sheer number of technicals indicates that light infantry support cannons are handy to have around. The Chinese are apparently fielding these Lynx things in significant numbers, so I guess they are finding them useful.

Chinese also don't have any serious combat experience. Those cannons would be better on heavy/medium IFV chassis than on those 6x6 wheeled death traps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, LoooSeR said:

Chinese also don't have any serious combat experience. Those cannons would be better on heavy/medium IFV chassis than on those 6x6 wheeled death traps.

I would suspect that these are for light infantry forces.  I don't know much about the TOE of Chinese forces tho. Maybe Akula or someone else can weigh in on that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Xlucine said:

You'd have to be pretty light for that to be the best you can get - it's possible to air-drop something with actual armour, and wheeled IFVs are a thing now

Someone  saying on dicksword that they have a couple of brigades equipped with these things. Who knows? Chinese do things their own way.

 

They have a SHORAD, MRLS, and I think a light howitzer on these things too.  Myself, I'd bet on Mountain troops. I know they have places where even their medium tanks can't go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of China's contested territory is either mountains or islands.   

 

When i saw that lynx, i immediately thought how useful for either side it would've been for india/pakistan mountain skirmish.

 

(Followed by, what a great platform for development of robotank.  I wonder if logistics make it a cheaper robotank than reuse of excess type59 tanks)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kal said:

Most of China's contested territory is either mountains or islands.   

 

When i saw that lynx, i immediately thought how useful for either side it would've been for india/pakistan mountain skirmish.

 

(Followed by, what a great platform for development of robotank.  I wonder if logistics make it a cheaper robotank than reuse of excess type59 tanks)

And gee, if I read things right, it's also amphibious...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Similar Content

    • By Sturgeon
      Let's say you're developing a tank with a unique (AKA non-historical) gun for one of our competitions here on SH. It would be nice to have an idea of the size of the gun, its shells, and what their performance both in terms of shell weight and velocity but also penetration, wouldn't it? Well, fortunately there is a way to do this with reasonably accurate results using your solid modeling software and some free to use browser tools.

      First, you want to have a general idea of the size and performance of your gun. For this example, I decided I wanted an optimized, high velocity 85mm caliber gun with a case about as big as the 7.5cm KwK 42 (as it happened, I ended up with a case that had significantly greater volume, but that fact is unimportant for this example). The cartridge I decided on has a 130mm wide rim and a 640mm long case, of course in 85mm caliber. My first step was to model this case in SolidWorks:


       
      You will also need to model your projectile, in this case a tungsten-carbide cored APCR round:


       
      Next, we need a bit of freeware: A Powley computer. Originally developed by DuPont engineers for small arms ammunition, the Powley computer is an accurate enough tool to use for much larger tank rounds as well! When you click the link, you'll be greeted with this screen:
       

       
      You'll note the dimensions are in inches and this thing called "grains" (abbreviated "gn"). The grain is an archaic Imperial mass unit equal to 1/7000th of a pound which is still used in the small arms field, today. Another quirk of small arms has the case capacity - a volume measurement - listed in grains as well. This is in fact grains of water (gn H2O), or the weight of water that will fill the case to the top. To find this, simply multiply the volume in cubic centimeters by 15.43 - which is also the exchange rate between the metric gram and grains mass.
       
      Finding the volume of the case is easy with a solid modeling program; simply model the interior as a solid and find the volume of that solid:


       
      Filling in my Powley inputs gives me this:
       

       
      Note that I typically use the diameter of the projectile across the driving bands for "Bullet Diameter", but it really makes very little difference.
       
      So far, though, we haven't actually produced any results. That's because our gun is well outside the bounds of DuPont production IMR powders, hence the output "Much slower than (IMR) 4831" in the lower left. So, we need to override the computer by checking the box next to the blue "Pressure" function, and typing in a pressure value in CUP that is reflective of tank guns of whatever era we are trying to represent. My tank gun is trying to represent something from about the late 1940s/early 1950s, so I'm going to use 45500 CUP EDIT: USE 41000 CUP for APCBC and 42800 CUP FOR APCR (or better yet, do your own calibration!):
       

       
      This gives me an estimated muzzle velocity of 3,964 ft/s for my L/50 barrel. Not bad! Note the outputs on the left, which tell you a bunch of fun facts about your round but aren't terribly relevant to what we're doing here today. Next, we need to put this gun's performance in terms of penetration. The way I like to do this is through comparative analysis.
       
      The first thing we need is to know to find penetration the ballistic performance of our round. We can estimate this using JBM's ballistic calculator and a few rules of thumb. When opening the calculator, the first thing you'll see is this:
       

       
      We care about basically none of these settings except BC, velocity, and maximum range. Caliber, projectile weight, chronograph distance, etc are all pretty irrelevant to us. Keep the environmental settings (temperature, pressure, etc.) set to their defaults. First, change the ballistic coefficient type from G1 to G7 using the dropdown menu. Then, change the muzzle velocity from 3000 to whatever the muzzle velocity was that was calculated by the Powley computer. Finally, set the maximum range to your desired distance - in my case 2,000 yards.

      For my round, I now have inputs that look like this:
       


      We also need to get some idea of how fast our projectile loses velocity, something we can't know for certain without actually building a real gun and test firing it - or at least without some really sophisticated simulations. However, projectiles with the same shape tend to fly the same way, and that's something we can exploit here. To figure this out, we need a graph showing us the performance of a real-life gun. Fortunately, there is a handy one for an IRL gun similar to what I'm designing, the 90mm M3 from World War II, and its M304 HVAP-T, which is broadly similar in construction and shape to my 85mm APCR projectile:
       

       
      Based on this chart, we see that the M304 should drop from its 3,350 ft/s muzzle velocity to about 2,500 ft/s at 2,000 yards. Doing a little trial and error with JBM tells me that this means the M304 has a G7 ballistic coefficient of about 1.13.
       
      Now, our projectile will not have the same ballistic coefficient, due to it being a different size and mass. But, we can figure out what its ballistic coefficient would be by finding its sectional density and comparing that to the sectional density of M304. To find sectional density, take the projectile's weight in grains and divide it by the square of the projectile's diameter in inches, times 7000. So for M304, we get:
       

       


      And for my 85mm, we get:


       

       
      This means that the ballistic coefficient for an identical-shape projectile with our size and weight will be about 1.019/1.330 - or 76.6% as much - as that of the 90mm M304. That means a BC of 0.866 G7 should be approximately correct for my 85mm APCR round. Let's plug that in:


       
      And then scroll down to the bottom to click "calculate", which gives us a big ol' chart that goes out to 2,000 yards:
       

       
      O-Kay! Now we have some data. It looks like at 2,000 yards, my projectile holds about 2,800 ft/s striking velocity. It's important to note here that what we really care about isn't the striking velocity of the projectile per se, but the velocity and energy of the projectile's core. The core is what's actually doing a lot of work to the armor, so for now let's stop thinking in terms of the whole projectile, and take a look at these two cores, that of the M304 90mm HVAP, and that of my 85mm APCR round. The core of the 90mm M304 is an approximately 8 pound lump of tungsten-carbide that is about 45mm in width. My penetrator is also 8 pounds, but it's longer and thinner in proportion - just 40mm wide, rather than 45mm. This means my penetrator will penetrate more armor at a given striking velocity, and we can estimate how much more by taking the specific energy of the rounds and comparing them. That is, the energy in Joules of the penetrator alone, divided by the penetrator's diameter squared:
       

       


      So the specific energy at 2,000 yards is about 826J/mm^2. Now, we need to find out at what impact velocity the M304 penetrator produces this same specific energy. Do do that, we go backwards, using the figures for M304:
       

       

       
      Therefore, the equivalent impact velocity for my 85mm APCR round at 2,000 yards is 3,150 ft/s for the M304. That means, in theory, that the M304 would have to impact a target at 3,150 ft/s to produce equivalent penetration of RHA to my 85mm APCR striking at just 2,800 ft/s.

      Now, we head back to that chart:


       
      On the left side of the graph, we put our cursor on the line that corresponds to approximately 3,150 ft/s velocity, and follow it over until it hits the curved line that corresponds with the angle of plate we care about - arbitrarily, let's pick 20 degrees. Then, we follow that point straight down until it hits the x-axis:


       
      Therefore, we estimate that at 2,000 yards, my 85mm has just over 10 inches of RHA penetration - not bad at all for a lowly APCR round!
    • By Walter_Sobchak
      Since we don't have a thread for British and Commonwealth tanks of WWII, I thought I would start one.  
       
      Check out this manufacturers instructional video on the Crusader.
       
       
    • By Walter_Sobchak
      Since Xlucine suggested it in the general AFV thread, here is a new version of the old Tank ID thread that used to exist at the WoT forums, back before the great exodus to SH.
       
      The rules are simple.  Post a picture of some sort of AFV and everyone has to try to name what it is.  Try to avoid posting a new picture until the previous picture is identified.  Generally, the person who was first to correctly ID the picture in question gets to post the next picture, unless they want to pass.  If a picture is not ID'd in a day or two, the person that posted it should say what it is and bask in their own sense of superiority.   They should then post a new picture for the sake of keeping the thread moving.  Please, no fictional tanks, paper napkin drawings that never made it to prototype or pictures where the vehicle in question is obscured or particularly hard to see.  Also, if posting a picture of an unusual variant of a relatively common vehicle, be sure to note that you are looking for the specific variant name, not just the general family of vehicles it belongs to (for example, if I post a picture of a Panzer IV with the hydrostat drive, I would say in the post something like "What makes this Panzer IV unusual?" since everyone can ID a Panzer IV)
       
      It is perfectly ok to shame those that make spectacularly wrong guesses.  That's just how we roll around here.  
       
      I'll start 
       

    • By Monochromelody
      各位最近可能在WT论坛上见过这张图片,在一些争论陆上自卫队90式战车的讨论串里:
      Some of you may have seen this pic recently on WT forum, in some thread arguing the protection of JGSDF Type 90: 
      Discussion on WT forum
       

       
      我就直说吧,表格里的中文注解说了,这不过是个“猜想”,GUESSING。
      To be straight, the Chinese annotation in the table said it is just a GUESSING.
      注解内容可能完全是编造的,但不幸的是,不同语言间的障碍使你们无法看穿这点。
      This annotation could be totally nonsense but unfortunately a barrier between languages prevent you guys see throught it. 
       
      实际上,这又是一份关于陆上自卫队10式战车的文件,说的并不是90式。
      In fact, again, this document itself is about JGSDF Type 10 MBT, not Type 90.
      同样的花招,不一样的人,是吧?
      Same trick, different people, huh?

      ↑陆上自卫队的10式战车规格书
      JGSDF specification handbook of Type 10 MBT

      ↑59页,附录B,性能(规定)以及诸元
      page 59, Appendix B, performance (regulations) and data
       
      下面简要说说这些性能规定如何编写、如何加密。
      Let's talk about these regulations and how they were made and encrypted. 
       
      大家可能知道日语中有平假名和片假名,和拉丁语中的字母还有大写字母是差不多的。
      You may know that Japanese have Hirakana and Katakana, like Latin have letters and capital letters. 
       
      正如图中所示,一些最关键的数值和描述用平假名、片假名、罗马字(拉丁字母)隐去了。
      As you can see, some of the most crucial numbers and descriptions are covered by a Hirakana or Katakana or Romaji(Latin letters).
       
      这些数值和描述被归在一起,编入附属的手册,称为“别册”。
      These numbers and descriptions were collected and listed in some append book, called Bessatsu(別冊). 
       
      在查阅别册时,就好比在看试卷的答题卡。但如果把别册里面的数值和描述涂黑,你就根本不知道说啥。
      When you look up to the append book, just like viewing the answer sheet of an exam paper. But when numbers and descriptions were censored, you'll never know what it said. 
       
      比如说,正面防护:
      For example, the frontal protection: 
       
      “耐弾性 - 正面 - 正面要部は、【あ】に射距離【え】m相当存速において、貫徹されない。”
       
      读起来是这样的:
      耐弹性 - 正面 - 正面重要部位可抵御【あ】以相当于射击距离【え】米存速的射击,不会贯穿。
      It read like this: 
      Protection - Frontal - Frontal crucial part should withstand 【あ】 firing at a distance of 【え】meter speed reduce equivalent, and not penetrate. 
       
      【あ】代表某种弹药,可能是尾翼稳定穿甲弹,但不知道是量产弹种还是实验弹种。
      【あ】stands for certain type of ammunition, probably APFSDS, but don't know whether it is production shot or experimental.
       
      【え】代表某个射击距离,可以是1000、1500或2000(米),但这么远的距离,炮弹会受到风力和重力影响,故无法精确瞄准靶车的防护区域。
      【え】stands for certain firing distance, could be 1000 , 1500 or 2000 (meters), but on such a long distance, shot could be effect by wind and gravity, thus cannot aim on the protection area of target vehicle precisely.
       
      一个常见的解决方式是在更近的距离上开火,比如说200到550米,同时减少推进药量,使得穿甲弹的终点速度符合特定距离的速降。这是一种等效方法。
      The usual solution is to fire from a much closer range, from 200 to 550 meters, while reducing the propellant charge so that the end speed of AP shot could match the speed drop on certain distance. This is an equivalant method. 
       
      有的人争辩说90式战车可以抵挡另一辆90式战车发射的穿甲弹(JM33),距离大约250米。这一说法源自一段未知视频片段,具体什么视频他们自己也没看过。较近的射击距离是为了能更好的瞄准,为此可能使用了减装药来模拟远距离终点速度,但也无法证明。
      Some people argue that Type 90 MBT can withstand AP shot (JM33) firing from another Type 90 MBT, on a distance about 250 meters. The source of this statement came from an unknown video clip, which they have never seen. Firing on closer range is for better aim, and they could have use reduced charge to simulate a much longer range, but we cannot prove. 
       
       
×