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US Politics Thread: Year 2 of 1000 of the TrumpenReich

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4 hours ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

The costs to the American tax payer caused by illegal immigration is actually pretty hard to measure.  That said, many of these immigrants pay taxes while being ineligable for most government assistance.  

 

Wiki has a pretty good rundown of the ecomonic impact.

 

Professor of Law Francine Lipman writes that the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false".[43] Lipman asserts that "illegal immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."

 

They even vote Democrat!

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1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You guys really do need 'The Wall'.....Things are going to go completely tits up on your southern border once your new fascist pet in Brazil summons up the balls to attack Venezuela for you.  ;)

 

you say that like having our fascist pet in Brazil invading Venezuela like somehow it's a BAD thing!

 

...

 

Screw it. I've been looking at wars in South America and those lazy bastards haven't had any interesting war down there between South American nation states since practically the 19th Century!

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44 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

They even vote Democrat!

Whether they know it or not!

 

Something about LA county being court ordered to purge 1.5 million registries from their voter rolls? But I'm sure that those were never abused or used to alter an election.

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51 minutes ago, Donward said:

I've been looking at wars in South America and those lazy bastards haven't had any interesting war down there between South American nation states since practically the 19th Century!

 

The Chaco War was pretty good.  ;)

 

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I'm a Unificator. Not a Divider-Upper. Let's bring the differing political factions of SH together again to all laugh at how Ben Shapiro, who is so much smarter and intellectually gifted than everyone else, thought it was a good idea to talk about Baby Hitler during the Right to Life rally in DC.

 

Ben Shapiro at March For Life rally: 'No pro-life person would kill baby Hitler'

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/426100-ben-shapiro-at-march-for-life-rally-no-pro-life-person-would-kill-baby-hitler

 

And THIS is how he defended himself.

 

 

The Twatter comments are gold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ulric said:

 

Well, fuck it, open borders and universal healthcare then! Why the fuck not! Who needs nation states anymore these days anyways. 

 

Why is it so goddamn hard to ask people to follow the fucking law? Because everytime someone suggests that we actually obey the rules that we have set out, some fucking retard pops out of the woodwork talking out of their ass with shit like "achtusualliey, it's a good thing that we have a shit load of people in our country illegally, they are net contributors!" Nice job referencing Wikipedia, and collage professors are always correct and never have a liberal bias. But I'm just a racist bigot, you know, I'll go drag my knuckles off back to the boonies where I belong.

 

Next time I post a link to wikipedia, I'll be sure to post a trigger warning.

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4 hours ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Next time I post a link to wikipedia, I'll be sure to post a trigger warning.

 

Just don't expect anyone to take your seriously if you link Wikipedia articles about politically charged issues. Nevermind the fact that performing a cost analysis on a national scale regarding people who, by their very nature, operate either partially or entirely out of the system with limited to no documentation is going to give you enough play room to tilt the numbers however you want them. That's about as accurate as the global warming predictions that we've been getting for the past 30 years.

 

But, I do have some simple questions for you. Is it wrong for us (we, the people, via our government) to decide who can come into our country? Is it wrong for us to enforce our laws? Is it wrong to punish people who break the law?

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1 hour ago, Ulric said:

 

Just don't expect anyone to take your seriously if you link Wikipedia articles about politically charged issues. Nevermind the fact that performing a cost analysis on a national scale regarding people who, by their very nature, operate either partially or entirely out of the system with limited to no documentation is going to give you enough play room to tilt the numbers however you want them. That's about as accurate as the global warming predictions that we've been getting for the past 30 years.

 

But, I do have some simple questions for you. Is it wrong for us (we, the people, via our government) to decide who can come into our country? Is it wrong for us to enforce our laws? Is it wrong to punish people who break the law?

 

The first sentence of that wiki article is" The economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States is challenging to measure and politically contentious."  Ther first line in my post was "The costs to the American tax payer caused by illegal immigration is actually pretty hard to measure."  You were the one that made the blanket statement that illegal immigrants cost US taxpayers billions of dollars.  I said "it's more complicated than that", and you respond by saying "it's hard to measure."  

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12 hours ago, Donward said:

 

you say that like having our fascist pet in Brazil invading Venezuela like somehow it's a BAD thing!

 

...

 

Screw it. I've been looking at wars in South America and those lazy bastards haven't had any interesting war down there between South American nation states since practically the 19th Century!

 

I look forward to the great South American tank battle featuring Venezuelan AMX-30 tanks versus Brazillian Leopard 1 tanks.

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18 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

The first sentence of that wiki article is" The economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States is challenging to measure and politically contentious."  Ther first line in my post was "The costs to the American tax payer caused by illegal immigration is actually pretty hard to measure."  You were the one that made the blanket statement that illegal immigrants cost US taxpayers billions of dollars.  I said "it's more complicated than that", and you respond by saying "it's hard to measure."  

 

Ok, fair point, we both admit that it's very difficult to measure. You also provided a quote from someone saying that illegals are a net benefit to our system to counter my assertion that they are a burden on the taxpaying citizenry.

 

But as usual, keep ignoring the simple questions that I ask.

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16 minutes ago, Belesarius said:

I'm going to repeat a question. Here in Canada, you need a valid SSN to claim welfare. Is that not the case in the US? Any sort of benefits are tracked very very tightly here. 

 

No, our system makes nowhere near that much sense.

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17 minutes ago, Belesarius said:

I'm going to repeat a question. Here in Canada, you need a valid SSN to claim welfare. Is that not the case in the US? Any sort of benefits are tracked very very tightly here. 

 

For example, illegals can and do vote. They're not supposed to be able to, but why do you think the DNC is so vocally opposed to any sort of voter ID law?

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2 hours ago, Ulric said:

 

Ok, fair point, we both admit that it's very difficult to measure. You also provided a quote from someone saying that illegals are a net benefit to our system to counter my assertion that they are a burden on the taxpaying citizenry.

 

But as usual, keep ignoring the simple questions that I ask.

If you mean your question about the law, I think that in general the law should be followed.  Law is the foundation of civilization.  That said, my favorite quote regarding the law is from Frank Zappa who said "The United States is a nation of laws, badly written and randomly enforced.” 

 

(For the record, I am not a Frank Zappa fan, but I do like that particular quote.)

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4 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

If you mean your question about the law, I think that in general the law should be followed.  Law is the foundation of civilization.  That said, my favorite quote regarding the law is from Frank Zappa who said "The United States is a nation of laws, badly written and randomly enforced.” 

 

(For the record, I am not a Frank Zappa fan, but I do like that particular quote.)

 

So we should enforce the law by allowing people to illegally immigrate? I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by your position, here.


Do you also support auditing the voter rolls and passing Voter ID laws to allow the current laws on who can and can't vote to be enforced?

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1 minute ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

If you mean your question about the law, I think that in general the law should be followed.  Law is the foundation of civilization.  That said, my favorite quote regarding the law is from Frank Zappa who said "The United States is a nation of laws, badly written and randomly enforced.” 

 

(For the record, I am not a Frank Zappa fan, but I do like that particular quote.)

 

You are preaching to the choir with that quote. Having to tip toe my way through US firearms laws everyday, I know just how badly written and conceived they can be. There are many aspects of immigration law that I probably would consider to be poorly written or unnecessary, but overarching concepts from them are still applicable. The issue is when you have 11 million (or whatever the number is now) people here knowingly and intentionally breaking the law and not being punished for doing so, that erodes the foundation of civilization.

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For me, as an outsider, it's does look pretty hypocritical of the Democrats, who under Obama fully supported an essentially identical policy, to make such a fuss.....I can see why they are doing it of course, Trump's an infantile buffoon, so they know they'll get an ill-measured response of some kind that their partisan press can run with.  Kindergarten politics.  :rolleyes:

 

PS - Zappa's a shill & his 'music' sucks c**k.  :mellow:

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Living in Washington State, I love the fact that my Drivers License is not considered a valid form of ID because our state hands them out, willy-nilly to illegals, thus forcing me to carry a different form of ID should I want to be able to fly domestically or enter a Federal building. 

 

But illegal immigration is a victimless crime...

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1 minute ago, Sturgeon said:

 

So we should enforce the law by allowing people to illegally immigrate? I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by your position, here.


Do you also support auditing the voter rolls and passing Voter ID laws to allow the current laws on who can and can't vote to be enforced?

 

My comments concerning the law were not specific to any particular issue since Ulric posed the question in a very general sense.  

 

However, since you want to know my opinion...

 

As to immigration, I am no expert on immigration or immigration law.  To me, it seems resonable to provide a path to citizenship for the Dreamers.  We also need a workable program for migrant workers to come to the US and do the jobs most Americans don't want to do.  From the statistics I have seen, illegal immigration is at an all time low compared to it's peak in the 1990's.  While illegal immigration in that period was characterized by single males looking for work, we currently are seeing an uptick in entire families travelling to the border, many from Honduras.  Perhaps the US should do something to help stabilize Honduras, although that sort of thing is always easier said than done.  

 

These are somewhat separate issues from border security, which deals not just with people, but with drugs and criminal activity.  As I understand it, most illegal drugs and illegal immigrants come into the country via legal means, not through the deserts of the American Southwest.  It seems to me that investments in technology and tools, better training for border agents and fencing in appropriate areas is a better solution than a monolithic wall stretching from sea to shining sea.  I am particularly opposed to the seizure of private lands through emminent domain to make room for the wall. 

 

As to the voting issue, I take claims that massive numbers of illegal immigrants vote with a grain of salt.  It seems to be an article of faith among conservatives, and yet Trump's own commission on voter fraud failed to provide much compelling evidence.  That an illegal immigrant would risk exposing their status for the sake of voting seems a bit unlikely to me. That said, I do not believe that Democrats are not above a bit of electoral shenanigans.  Kennedy won Chicago in 1960 with the help of many a dead voter.  

 

Auditing voter rolls is all well and good, assuming it's done in a fair and impartial manner.  Voter data should be in the hands of impartial, non partisan regulators.  This way we could help alleviate conservatives fears of non-citizens voting as well as liberal's fears of voter purges being used to target African American voters.  Same goes for drawing districts.  We need to end partisan gerrymandering.  

 

  

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

For me, as an outsider, it's does look pretty hypocritical of the Democrats, who under Obama fully supported an essentially identical policy, to make such a fuss.....I can see why they are doing it of course, Trump's an infantile buffoon, so they know they'll get an ill-measured response of some kind that their partisan press can run with.  Kindergarten politics.  :rolleyes:

 

PS - Zappa's a shill & his 'music' sucks c**k.  :mellow:

 

Many years ago I worked for a couple months in a bakery where the guy in charge would only play Zappa and free form jazz on the boom box.  I have an intense hatred for both as a result.

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