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US Politics Thread: Year 2 of 1000 of the TrumpenReich

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48 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

This is the best ya got?  The State department shared classified information with people who are legally allowed to view classified information.  Not sure what the issue is here.

 

I am not surprized you are downplaying government resources being used to target political adversaries. Wouldn't it be something if one of those people who were 'legally allowed to see it' was the one who feloniously leaked Flynn's call with the ambassador to the WaPo.

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4 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

 

I am not surprized you are downplaying government resources being used to target political adversaries. Wouldn't it be something if one of those people who were 'legally allowed to see it' was the one who feloniously leaked Flynn's call with the ambassador to the WaPo.

 

Or perhaps the Obama administration had real concerns that Trump and his people represented a true national security risk.  Which seems to be the case considering the news the past couple weeks.

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1 hour ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Or perhaps the Obama administration had real concerns that Trump and his people represented a true national security risk.  Which seems to be the case considering the news the past couple weeks.

 

For me, but not for thee.

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27 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

If you can point to any other examples were an incoming administration set off alarm bells within the Justice Dept and Intel community that it may be a legitimate national security threat, feel free to point them out.  

 

For me. For me, for me, for me, but never for thee.

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2 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Say whatever  you want, but you are the one trying to make an arguement for an administration that keeps finding some of it's key members in jail.

 

Naw, I'm saying that I have no problem watching your gang of corrupt assholes get whaled on by a rival gang of corrupt assholes, but you seem to think this is The Greatest Injustice and The End of American Democracy. It's gang warfare, dude, the Republicans are just finally biting back. And your side is publicly clutching pearls while dealing coke and ordering hits on the side.

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1 minute ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Naw, I'm saying that I have no problem watching your gang of corrupt assholes get whaled on by a rival gang of corrupt assholes, but you seem to think this is The Greatest Injustice and The End of American Democracy. It's gang warfare, dude, the Republicans are just finally biting back. And your side is publicly clutching pearls while dealing coke and ordering hits on the side.

 

Wow, we have vastly different perceptions of American history, society and government.  

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Just now, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Wow, we have vastly different perceptions of American history, society and government.  

 

Obama's in the same camp as Nixon here, except he squeaked by without getting caught before he left office. Which makes him "better" than Nixon, I suppose. But if you look into the matter, you'll find that this kind of dirty play is actually not unheard of in US politics, so the "desperate times call for desperate measures" excuse doesn't really work here. Obama was one corrupt motherfucker (like almost all Presidents, I suspect), that's for fucking sure.

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2 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Obama's in the same camp as Nixon here, except he squeaked by without getting caught before he left office. Which makes him "better" than Nixon, I suppose. But if you look into the matter, you'll find that this kind of dirty play is actually not unheard of in US politics, so the "desperate times call for desperate measures" excuse doesn't really work here. Obama was one corrupt motherfucker (like almost all Presidents, I suspect), that's for fucking sure.

 

Yes, it's very common for presidential candidates to offer a foriegn dictator a $50 million dollar penthouse in a proposed construction project.  Very normal for a new presidents National Security Advisor to be convicted of lying to the FBI about contacts with foriegn govmernments.  Very normal for a candidates campaign head to be convicted of being an undeclared agent for a foriegn power.  Just your typical case of US politics and nothing out of the ordinary.  

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If Trump had only stuck to selling unregistered firearms to mexican gangs which were then used to kill federal agents, if he had stuck to setting up a "charitable foundation" which was a front for a pay-to-play scheme used by foreign agents while storing classified documents in an unsecured server in some random basement, if he had stuck to having his spouse have an off-the-record conversation with the federal employee tasked with investigating his spouse's criminal activity in a random airplane hangar, if he had stuck to letting US citizens die in Benghazi while blaming the event on a YouTube video that no one watched, then the Press wouldn't be concerned. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Yes, it's very common for presidential candidates to offer a foriegn dictator a $50 million dollar penthouse in a proposed construction project.  Very normal for a new presidents National Security Advisor to be convicted of lying to the FBI about contacts with foriegn govmernments.  Very normal for a candidates campaign head to be convicted of being an undeclared agent for a foriegn power.  Just your typical case of US politics and nothing out of the ordinary.  

 

It is very normal for the FBI to use political campaign slander as justification for a FISA warrant to spy on a political candidate, for that spying to get leaked to the media, for the leak to turn into a justification to question incoming administration officials, for the agents conducting the questioning to lead the officials into believing it was a casual talk, for it to turn out the FBI official who made the decision to question administration officials himself was leaking to distract from personal issues and lying to investigators about it, that agents in charge had a political bias to "stop" the incoming president, and for the FBI to do everything it can to cover up their illicit activities.

 

And it is very normal for presidential candidates to have 'charity' foundations that get tens of millions in foreign donations that suddenly stop when that candidate loses the election...

Edited by Ramlaen

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2 minutes ago, Donward said:

If Trump had only stuck to selling unregistered firearms to mexican gangs which were then used to kill federal agents, if he had stuck to setting up a "charitable foundation" which was a front for a pay-to-play scheme used by foreign agents while storing classified documents in an unsecured server in some random basement, if he had stuck to having his spouse have an off-the-record conversation with the federal employee tasked with investigating his spouse's criminal activity in a random airplane hangar, if he had stuck to letting US citizens die in Benghazi while blaming the event on a YouTube video that no one watched, then the Press wouldn't be concerned. 

 

 

I seem to remember the press covering all those events.  Hell, they covered Benghazi for months since the Republican congress had investigation after investigation on it.  As I remember, the final conclusion of all those investigations was pretty anti-climatic.

 

Anyhow, your point regarding the Clinton foundation is pretty ironic since as I understand it, Trumps charitable foundation is under investigation for basically being a money laundering scheme.

 

 

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Question: What were the Clinton's per diem and net worth prior to 1992? What is it today?

 

Question 2: What were the Obama's per diem and net worth prior to 2008? What is it today?

 

Question 3: Do you seriously believe Trump's net worth is going to grow once he's out of office?

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1 minute ago, Donward said:

Question: What were the Clinton's per diem and net worth prior to 1992? What is it today?

 

Question 2: What were the Obama's per diem and net worth prior to 2008? What is it today?

 

Question 3: Do you seriously believe Trump's net worth is going to grow once he's out of office?

 

There is no way for me to know Trump's net worth since unlike every other Presidential candidate in the modern era, he refused to release his tax information to the public.

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10 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

There is no way for me to know Trump's net worth since unlike every other Presidential candidate in the modern era, he refused to release his tax information to the public.

 

You can't honestly answer that question without undercutting your position.

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But here's the fantasy world that the Left is living in.

 

The Left and the Press and the Democratic Party generally believe that the Russians bribed Donald Trump who has a networth of $3 billion dollars... with a $50 million real estate deal in moscow... in order for him to be President... when during the time this occurred polling had him at less than 1 percent if he was even included on a poll at all... to run as a Republican... for the sole purpose of... Something?... Like, what do the Russians even think they're getting out of the deal given that Trump has bombed their client states to shit in Syria and has put even more sanctions on their economy... but the yeah, the Russians bribed Trump to be President... and they accomplished ALL of this by purchasing $60,000 in Facebook advertising... and Trump went along with this because... reasons?

 

Occam's Razor

 

But yeah, a campaign adviser who was foisted onto Trump for a couple months because the GOP Establishment thought Trump needed his Rolodex in order to run the Convention and whom Trump promptly fired was convicted of crimes not even involving the President or his Administration. And Flynn got caught in a perjury trap which is even as we type getting the stink eye from the Federal judge in charge of the case and will likely be thrown out.

 

Bravo Democrats.

 

I'm surprised the Left hasn't gone the IRS route harder though, because Obama made no bones at all about siccing the IRS on his political opponents during his Administration.

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Here's the way I think about it. The Republicans and Democrats are a cartel. Let's call them the Establecimiento cartel. Now, Establecimiento fights within itself, and there's constant tugs of war happening within them between the major factions, but ultimately they are all on board with needing to protect the cartel itself from outside influences and will do whatever it takes to maintain that status quo. Accordingly, they will routinely look the other way when rival factions within the cartel off informants, launder money, etc. Under normal circumstances they let these activities slide so as to not upset the balance. If they didn't, sure, they could gain a temporary advantage over their rivals, but the gloves would come off and soon everyone would be in jail or dead. So best to respect those boundaries.

By the early 1990s, though, the inevitable was happening. The Azul faction of the Establecimiento cartel was biting at the edges. Taking little bits of territory here and there, stepping just enough over the line to get ahead without starting an all-out war. If they didn't stop, the minority faction, the Rojo, would effectively lose all power and be forcibly subsumed by the Azul who would effectively control the entire cartel and the country. The Rojo leadership, though, was weak and feared conflict. They were friends, if sometimes chilly friends, with many of the Azuls and didn't want an outright war. But their underlings, their soldados and sicarios, could smell this weakness and by the late 2000s doubt was the rule, not the exception, for Rojo peons. They knew the faction's leadership would not stick up for them or their needs, and eventually everyone would be ruled by the Azul, who would then be free to make reprisals.

 

At the same time, Azul leadership was getting complacent in their success. They had enriched themselves beyond belief, and began to take their own soldados and sicarios for granted. Even though profits from the cartel business had boomed, there seemed to be fewer recipients, and pay for the rank and file had not only stagnated, but declined. Many within the faction began to realize that the Azul leaders were not, as they professed, men of the people, but men out for themselves. The deal was fealty for support - if you fight for us, we will take care of you. But that deal was increasingly one-sided only. Azul soldados were unfailingly reliable in their fealty, but they weren't being taken care of. Far from it.
 

The conditions of the Rojo and Azul factions opened the door for new leadership to take power. If united, a coalition of Azul and Rojo soldados would be the equal even of united Azul and Rojo leales. It was in this storm front that an outsider, El Triunfo, to both the Azul and Rojo factions saw his chance. He would unite the most forgotten Azul soldados, and the neglected Rojos, under his banner. Like the Azul and Rojo leaders before him, he branded himself as a man of the people, but where they had long since stopped even paying lip service to this, he would feed the people targeted rhetoric that promised to right what the previous cartel leadership had let go wrong. Worse for the cartels, El Triunfo openly criticized their excesses and promised to cut fattening middlemen out of the operation entirely. The Establecimiento cartel could not long stand this.

El Triunfo was nominally a Rojo, but the Rojo leadership saw him as a rival just as they saw the Azul, if not more. Their alliance with him was one of convenience, an attempt to win back some of the power the Azul had nibbled away from them over the years, but it was never designed to last. Even as the alliance was being formed, the Rojo leadership were already making plans to oust El Triunfo, and ideally to disgrace him so that he could be terminated permanently.

 

That is the state of affairs now. Rojo and Azul are still trying to get ahead of one another, but the true conflict is for the destiny of the cartel itself. If Rojo or Azul leaders win, the status quo is maintained. If El Triunfo wins, both Rojo and Azul lose. El Triunfo has the loyalty of a plurality of cartel subjects, and his soldados and sicarios are heavily armed and could cause the cartel significant casualties, if not win, in an outright war. The Rojo-El Triunfo alliance will only last as long as the benefits to either one outweigh the risks. When El Triunfo gets too out of hand or can be safely eliminated, Rojo will attempt to eliminate him directly. When El Triunfo no longer needs Rojo support and protection, he will no longer vouch for them. Already El Triunfo is replacing as many Rojo officers with his own cronies as fast as possible so that by the time they realize they are in existential danger, it will be too late. If El Triunfo secures true, and permanent control over the Rojo faction, then the cartel conflict will re-establish itself along the classical Rojo-Azul lines, and no one need be the wiser. But although the old Rojo are increasingly bending the knee, there is still resistance within them, and they maintain plans to remove him if possible. Time will tell.

 

Way I see, it, @Walter_Sobchak, you support maintenance of the old guard Establecimiento leadership. Any threat to this is existential and bad. But the cartel is just that, a cartel.

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By the way Walter, if Flynn was a legitimate national security threat...why was the incoming administration not informed? Wouldn't you think his security clearances would be suspended at a bare minimum?

 

Was the Steele dossier evidence of a legitimate national security threat, or was it unverified opposition research by a political adversary?

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40 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Yes, it's very common for presidential candidates to offer a foriegn dictator a $50 million dollar penthouse in a proposed construction project.  Very normal for a new presidents National Security Advisor to be convicted of lying to the FBI about contacts with foriegn govmernments.  Very normal for a candidates campaign head to be convicted of being an undeclared agent for a foriegn power.  Just your typical case of US politics and nothing out of the ordinary.  

 

Quoting this post for when your team flames the fuck out here shortly for having their own undeclared foreign agents scandal to the tune of BILLIONS not millions over DECADES instead of a few years.

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30 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

I seem to remember the press covering all those events.  Hell, they covered Benghazi for months since the Republican congress had investigation after investigation on it.  As I remember, the final conclusion of all those investigations was pretty anti-climatic.

 

Anyhow, your point regarding the Clinton foundation is pretty ironic since as I understand it, Trumps charitable foundation is under investigation for basically being a money laundering scheme.

 

 

 

And by pretty anticlimactic you mean corrupt motherfuckers in federal leo made god damn sure the servers etc made it to safe ports... Sure.

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18 hours ago, Donward said:

But here's the fantasy world that the Left is living in.

 

The Left and the Press and the Democratic Party generally believe that the Russians bribed Donald Trump who has a networth of $3 billion dollars... with a $50 million real estate deal in moscow... in order for him to be President... when during the time this occurred polling had him at less than 1 percent if he was even included on a poll at all... to run as a Republican... for the sole purpose of... Something?... Like, what do the Russians even think they're getting out of the deal given that Trump has bombed their client states to shit in Syria and has put even more sanctions on their economy... but the yeah, the Russians bribed Trump to be President... and they accomplished ALL of this by purchasing $60,000 in Facebook advertising... and Trump went along with this because... reasons?

 

Occam's Razor

 

But yeah, a campaign adviser who was foisted onto Trump for a couple months because the GOP Establishment thought Trump needed his Rolodex in order to run the Convention and whom Trump promptly fired was convicted of crimes not even involving the President or his Administration. And Flynn got caught in a perjury trap which is even as we type getting the stink eye from the Federal judge in charge of the case and will likely be thrown out.

 

Bravo Democrats.

 

I'm surprised the Left hasn't gone the IRS route harder though, because Obama made no bones at all about siccing the IRS on his political opponents during his Administration.

 

i did not know that Trump's own Justice Department were "the left", but whatever.

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