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Sturgeon's House

The Design-an-RPG thread


Toxn

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Hahah, yes, "aid us in this endeavor".

I asked him what he thought of the thread. ;)

In all seriousness, great to have you here; I'm sure you could show us a thing or two about how to make a successful RP system.

I don't think anybody brought up publishing yet; but maybe some of us were thinking about it down the line.

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I am currently preparing the shorthand version for an online campaign to playtest proof of concept - If everyone wants to wait that out I will have proof of concept gaming done in 6-8 months.  I do it online and with a stripped down system and a rule set that is at best incomplete.  Or people here could be the POC team and then take on supplemental roles in design and writing.  

 

I have talked this one over with my agent and I may go an alternate route this time around.

 

Chime in if there is interest.

 

Or if you want to do your own system I could make suggestions and get you started.  

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I am currently preparing the shorthand version for an online campaign to playtest proof of concept - If everyone wants to wait that out I will have proof of concept gaming done in 6-8 months.  I do it online and with a stripped down system and a rule set that is at best incomplete.  Or people here could be the POC team and then take on supplemental roles in design and writing.  

 

I have talked this one over with my agent and I may go an alternate route this time around.

 

Chime in if there is interest.

 

Or if you want to do your own system I could make suggestions and get you started.  

 

We had tossed about some ideas on an RP system above; I think we'd love your feedback.

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I have been directed to this page because of my own expertise in this area.  My name is Steve Jackson, and I am a game designer.

 

Knew it once I saw the name in the bayonet book.

 

 

Chime in if there is interest.

 

Is there ever, whichever way you want to go with it.

 

I would definitely be interested in what you have to say about the semi-done rules guts in the post above yours.

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Knew it once I saw the name in the bayonet book.

 

 

 

Is there ever, whichever way you want to go with it.

 

I would definitely be interested in what you have to say about the semi-done rules guts in the post above yours.

 

I don't think he'll mind too much if I out him as not that Steve Jackson, and no, not that other Steve Jackson either. :)

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Nothing wrong with any of it, but I would go about it differently.  

 

First you need a version tracking model in place.  So call your first rule set A1 and add 1 to that number each time a rule is added.

 

Then you have someone finish an A1 version of the rules.  That is bare bones character creation, skills, and task rules.  Finished is better than perfect - everything will get defined and fixed in POC, and play-testing.

 

So I think that someone needs to put out a PDF of the basic rules as the starting point and call it A1.

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Game Rules

Characters
Characteristics are defined as X
The list of characteristics is X1, X2, X3, X4.
Skills are defined as Y
The list of skills is Y1, Y2, Y3, Y4...
Abilities are defined as Z
The list of skills is Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4...
 
Chargen
Characters are created using a system based on this paradigm.
Here is a sample character.
 
Game Play
Skills complete tasks.
The math behind this is X1+Y1+d10 = task success.
Target number is based on paradigm A.
 
Ironmongery
Sample gun stats B1.
 
Fill in the blanks like you are writing a wiki.
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Here is an example founding document, just enough to get play going to allow the system to get developed.  This is mine from A Crack in Time, but I would be happy to share or help you make your own.  Note that the actual CIT book is much more complex and already moving forward as it has an ironmongery catalog, an adversaries book, and a more complex chargen. 

 

http://www.virdea.net/gamesys.pdf

 

One of the biggest and most important theory of game publishing that all of my friends agree on is that a game that is written is better than one that is being debated, and that you can never please the pundits - your game will always be hated by everyone - hate is what the Internet is about.  70% of the Internet states they hate iPhones and McDonalds.  Note that both of these groups sell a crap load of products.

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  • 4 weeks later...

So I got all tooled up to help you guys design a game, and I even talked to a publisher about its release.  Is this a dead idea?

 

It's not dead but it hasn't been seeing effort time. Between getting sick and work being more demanding than usual (basically having to pick up an entire skillset I don't actually have) I haven't been able to get to doing much work and figuring what to get done next once I get everything organized better. Thanks for the reminder though.

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So I got all tooled up to help you guys design a game, and I even talked to a publisher about its release. Is this a dead idea?

Thanks again for the help.

One issue is that we currently have two very different approaches being tried out at once.

Should X and I both reformat what we have, or is it possible for you to tell a priori which will work better?

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Thanks again for the help.

One issue is that we currently have two very different approaches being tried out at once.

Should X and I both reformat what we have, or is it possible for you to tell a priori which will work better?

 

 

Need more data.  

 

First I have to apologize because I actually teach a class where students authors, all seniors, publish a video or tabletop game.  Really publish I mean.  I tend to be a top sergeant about it.  Meaning that I get surly because for me this is a business, and I get paid 15-20 thousand dollars to help guide a design team through to its finish point.  For me this is not just a mind contest on a forum, but something that is actually possible that I am willing to invest my time on for free.  That said I am not worried if no one wants my input, no harm, no foul.  So if I seem serious about this subject it is because it is a great deal of work, and that work results in a great thing, a new game.

 

First, both of your models are flawed.  Not because you are wrong, you both have good ideas, but your simulation only comes once the game is set in its path.  Put the ideas in the bank for a second and lets do some questions.

 

1. What is the paradigm for the game.  We know RPG, but is it a computer/local, computer/server, printed, or eBook.

2. Who is our design team.  This is the people who will stay in the process from first to last.  

3. What skill sets does this team bring to the table.  

4. Finally, what is your game about.  One sentence everyone agrees on.  More than one sentence and you have to go back and try again.

(If we were in a company playing with OPM we would have to also do target audience and ROI, but no need to complicate things now)

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Your team:

 

A producer

A creative writer

A simulation person

A graphic designer

(if Computer, then a coder, if online, then a server op)

 

Here is an image from Crack in Time.

 

bm59.jpg

 

To get to the point where I could make that image I needed research into the historical weapon, a combat system and character system in order to create objective stats for the weapon, a copy of the weapon to take a picture of, then artistic skill to turn that image into a black outline.  For Crack in Time I answered the questions I posed you 14 months ago.  Note the card has a typo - at this point I am designing the cards, not the information in the card which is still being researched.

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Need more data.  

 

First I have to apologize because I actually teach a class where students authors, all seniors, publish a video or tabletop game.  Really publish I mean.  I tend to be a top sergeant about it.  Meaning that I get surly because for me this is a business, and I get paid 15-20 thousand dollars to help guide a design team through to its finish point.  For me this is not just a mind contest on a forum, but something that is actually possible that I am willing to invest my time on for free.  That said I am not worried if no one wants my input, no harm, no foul.  So if I seem serious about this subject it is because it is a great deal of work, and that work results in a great thing, a new game.

 

First, both of your models are flawed.  Not because you are wrong, you both have good ideas, but your simulation only comes once the game is set in its path.  Put the ideas in the bank for a second and lets do some questions.

 

1. What is the paradigm for the game.  We know RPG, but is it a computer/local, computer/server, printed, or eBook.

2. Who is our design team.  This is the people who will stay in the process from first to last.  

3. What skill sets does this team bring to the table.  

4. Finally, what is your game about.  One sentence everyone agrees on.  More than one sentence and you have to go back and try again.

(If we were in a company playing with OPM we would have to also do target audience and ROI, but no need to complicate things now)

  1. We generally agreed that the game would be an RPG, classical to early gunpowder era, with X's design being (IIRC) computer-assisted and mine being entirely local and printed/card-based.
  2. The team so far (again, IIRC) consists of Sturgeon, X and myself.
  3. I noodle around with games and can draw/write, X can program, Sturgeon can write and actively GMs.
  4. The agreed-upon thing was something along the lines of: "Realistic historical RPG set in the immediate post-Roman era." Think post-apocalypse, classical era edition.
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Woof. I didn't realize who we'd stumbled into with Virdea. It's a good thing, though.

As you say, V, you're coming at this from a professional perspective - one the game really needs - and until your wake up call I think we were all noodling around.

So I'll think about what other sort of material I can dump here, and then I'll post my thoughts.

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  1. We generally agreed that the game would be an RPG, classical to early gunpowder era, with X's design being (IIRC) computer-assisted and mine being entirely local and printed/card-based.
  2. The team so far (again, IIRC) consists of Sturgeon, X and myself.
  3. I noodle around with games and can draw/write, X can program, Sturgeon can write and actively GMs.
  4. The agreed-upon thing was something along the lines of: "Realistic historical RPG set in the immediate post-Roman era." Think post-apocalypse, classical era edition.

 

 

Mine would play nice with computerization, but is actually intended to be nice and simple for tabletop use. I'm pretty sure that I could track a character on two index cards worth of space.

 

I've also GMed a pretty decent bit, and am reasonably confident I can write although I'll leave that to other people to decide.

 

One problem I've been having is just having a firm grasp on the sort of stories that an adventuring group could get up to in that period because I'm so used to games that have small group tactical combat as a major component of their vision. Part of the reason I haven't been doing much is because I've got a copy of Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West to get through for a rough idea of things.

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I was actually thinking about taking a good hard look at Dogs in the Vineyard's ideas because outside of settings where murder hobos roam free and proud, some sort of escalation system that bridges capability of violence to conflict resolution is pretty important, and the traditional RPG bifurcation of social encounters and combat to where there may as well be a JRPG fade effect just doesn't seem workable.

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One question, by fall of the Roman Empire do you mean Sack of Byzantium 1453, or sack of Rome 410 - 560.

 

I think if you mean the western withdrawal phase of the Roman empire then I can help you work out a REAL cool story line for a historical model.  It means I have to bone up on my old Welsh though.

 

The final fall of Rome is also fascinating, but harder to sell to people who have never heard of an Ottoman except to assume it is a fancy French couch.

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Ok, so here is the back story that can start us on defining our game.  Please excuse me if I go into scholar mode.

 

In 388 archeological evidence shows that Hadrian's wall is abandoned.  While traditional scholars place the date of the loss of the wall as 383 the presence of coins from 387 show that it was held for a few more years.  This tells me as a historian that our knowledge of what was going in in Britain is weak at best, and subject to exploitation by game designers.  We know some of our primary source is bogus, and here I include some of the attribution to Honorius, but we do also know that on the ground Roman paid legions are off the island by 400.  Welcome to the dark age, a time when nothing happened unless it was of interest to the Greek speaking world.

 

Chronica Gallica is our only true written window into what happens in Britain that is contemporary with the events, and it is quiet until 451 when it says "Britanniae usque ad hoc tempus variis cladibus eventibusque latae in dicionem Saxonum rediguntur..."  This gives us to bits of evidence.  Britain existed as a unique entity and was no longer truly Roman.  De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae then provides our window directly after events, and it is a muddy mirror at best and in some ways over -relied on.

 

Archeological evidence though is intriguing.  From 400-500 there is a building boom in some Welch cities.  The buildings show advanced sophistication - running water, hot water, sewers, and under floor heat.  Although historians are now muddied by nationalism - the evidence is great that a Romanized kingdom existed for some 200 years in this region, and that the kingdom has largely been forgotten or subsumed by Saxon chroniclers in later years.  Despite existence of some primary source, this region rests in shadows until the time right after Charlemagne when educational reforms starts to send educated writers to the broader European hinterlands.

 

These people recreated the Roman army on a local basis, had forums, probably spoke latin and wrote down things..  They were surrounded by illiterate barbarians tribes which they made deals with, but were otherwise isolated from the rest of the world.  The world does not communicate as we might think back then - St. Patrick will do his work without much fanfare in the middle of this period but his importance will mot be recognized by Europe until the 8th century when learning returns to Europe.  

 

You literally have a blank canvas here where a great story could be told.

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One question, by fall of the Roman Empire do you mean Sack of Byzantium 1453, or sack of Rome 410 - 560.

 

I think if you mean the western withdrawal phase of the Roman empire then I can help you work out a REAL cool story line for a historical model.  It means I have to bone up on my old Welsh though.

 

The final fall of Rome is also fascinating, but harder to sell to people who have never heard of an Ottoman except to assume it is a fancy French couch.

 

IIRC, we lamented the lack of any decent post-Roman-through-end-of-the-Migration-Period games.

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As a historian, I doubt that Arthur existed in anything like what Chanson de Geste gives us - and the annalae are 2 centuries after him before he gets mentioned, only oral tradition gives us any clue and that is weak, but one could see a warrior rising from senior regimental leader to lead the Romanized Britons.  And it is interesting to note that whatever really happened, the United States itself has only lasted slightly longer than the longest window we have for Subulae Romana di Brittanae.  

 

Anyway you can have a Twilight 2000 roman legion stick, or a straight fantasy.  People of the 4th century had magic, horrible monsters, barbarians, and all the rest.

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