"Pigs" Have A Hard Job

[Donward]

Nah.

 

See. This is why graphs like this are pretty much useless with all the key points being easily explainable. Let's look at the key points in history.

 

First off. Prohibition. That's easy with Organized Crime taking advantage of the Volstead Act and the inability of the Feds and state and local municipalities to deal with criminals wielding high-powered automatic weapons. It is no surprise that period of time has the highest amount of LEO deaths.

 

Let's look before Prohibition. Police officers are a recent phenomenon in human history. The increase in the amount of cops being hired coupled with the increased population of the United States accounts for a lot of the increase in officer deaths. This is coupled with Labor violence from the 1880s to the 1920s (also accounting for the high 1920s Prohibition era death toll).

 

Then you see a period of 40 years of lowered police officer deaths. Radically lowered. This can be accounted for in part by the repeal of Prohibition. But also America's cult of Law and Order. The Great Depression in the 1930s saw a radical decrease in crime - ironically - since a large part of the population was too poor to commit crime. This is an actually phenomenon. In the 1940s, a large segment of the young male population was off killing Krauts and Japs. And in the 1950s and 1960s we saw the aforementioned Law and Order cult dominate US society where cops were regarded as square-jawed heroes and not the stooges of corporations, the railroads, etc. This period of time saw the end of Labor strife with radical labor groups being displaced not by corporations, but by moderate union groups. (See Dave Beck and "Beckism").

 

It wasn't until the late 1960s and 1970s with the onslaught of drugs, the Counter Culture and race riots that there was a radical increase in crime in the 1970s (which was a dirty, filthy, miserable violent decade). 

 

In the 1980s we had the "War on Drugs" which folks laugh at now but which did give a weapon to police for apprehending and incarcerating criminals. This is coupled with better technology (bullet proof vests, better Emergency Room procedures) better communication techniques and training (No longer was it expected that a single cop take down a gang of criminals) and greater access to on-the-spot criminal records.

 

Today, when a cop pulls over a car, he will know if it is stolen, he will know if the registered owner has warrants out for his arrest. If there is a suspect at large, he has that information instanteously on the computer in his patrol car. When a cop makes an arrest of a potentially violent suspect, there will be multiple officers on hand, all wearing body armor with years of training at their disposal and an arsenal of weapons should things turn violent. 

 

If white meth maggot or hispanic/black gang banger wants to throw down on the cops with his Taurus 9mm, he is at a severe disadvantage from a tactical viewpoint; particularly since we know that handguns aren't very good at killing human beings in the first place.

 

So training, technology and communications. Especially since the 1970s.

[Toxn]

Ever heard of the post-hoc fallacy?

[Donward]

Ever heard of the post-hoc fallacy?

Ever heard of the ham hock in gravy?

 

 

Pigs really do have a hard job.

[Sturgeon]

ROUND 1: FIGHT!

[Sturgeon]

Also, really, calling post-hoc on what's basically a series of factual statements, Tox?

[Toxn]

It's post hoc because the same pool of facts could have been used as an after-the-fact explanation for just about any trend.

I'm sure we could have come up with an equally plausible story if, for instance, the trend had been the opposite.

[Donward]

When someone uses terms like "post hoc fallacy" they automatically lose the Internet debate. It is as silly as saying ham hock and gravy.

If you wish to dispute any of the points I made then do so. Otherwise it is just like the kid saying "Infinity plus One" on the playground or claiming that his dad can beat up yours.

As for the article, I could be misreading/misremembering but it seems to try to make the point that since less cops are dying they should be shooting less criminals/suspects/oppressed ethnic groups. Which is an odd conclusion to jump to and leads one to ask if this is so them does that mean we need a police shooting quota system where only so many perps are allowed to be shot based on X number of police fatalities?

(Also I only read the American and not the South African articles since I lacked the time and interest to do so and MURICA!)

[Toxn]

So our discussion is reduced to cherry picking facts until we have a narrative that lines up with what we want it to? You constructed a story that perfectly explains the data but has zero predictive power. I'd accordingly say that it's perfectly legitimate to call bullshit on it without having to tediously go through every era you mentioned looking for a counter-argument.

Fuck, the original statement was pretty much in jest. Even the study itself was pretty laughable, as no correction for police population size (total or relative to the rest of the population) was done.

But I will be damned if you get to whip out the ancient trick of demanding that I rebut an encyclopedia's worth of assertions on your part instead of discussing the crux of the argument presented. Which is simply that there is zero evidence to show that cops in the US are somehow under siege from a resurgent criminal class. Finish and klaar.

This shit is weak, Don. And frankly I get tired of the inevitable arc of these discussions.

I'm going to let this thread sink out of sight again, and won't lower the tone further by bringing up anything related to either your or my nascent police states. Feel free to PM me with anything you want to chat about further.

 

Edit: As tone is hard, some clarifications. Firstly, Don is entirely right when he points out that logical fallacies get used in bullshit gotcha arguments all the time. Secondly, my shit is also weak and this post should be understood as talking to that fact. Finally, my hysterics towards the end are obviously no substitute for rational argument.

[Donward]

Not meaning to be argumentative or insulting. Seriously. That is the main 99 percent important part of this post. For realsy.

But not every graph is predictive just because there are numbers. Especially over a 140 year period. The reasons why a sheriffs deputy is killed putting down an IWW Wobbly strike =/= a Prohibition raid gone afoul =/= traffic stop gone wrong etc.

As for the past 30 years I feel I made a reasonable point on why deaths have gone down.

As for why cops feel under siege turn on the TV. It's the same reason blacks feel like cops are shooting then down just for the LOLS.

[Donward]

I can't remember if this website has been posted at SH or not.

 

http://killedbypolice.net/

 

Corporate news reports of people killed by U.S. law enforcement officers, whether in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method. 
Inclusion implies neither wrongdoing nor justification on the part of the person killed or the officer involved. The post merely documents the occurrence of a death. 

 

It includes news stories going back to 2013.

 

I've only had time in my life to skim the first thirty stories or so. The vast majority are what a reasonable individual would call "Good Kills" insofar that the individual slain by police was in the process of a violent crime, had a knife or firearm, had killed a law enforcement officer or a civilian. There were two instances of the suspect "reaching" for something that turned out to be a non-firearm. This website counts two individuals who died in traffic accidents with a police officer (one a high school football player struck by accident crossing the street). And there's some weird shit that went on up on the Reservation in Tulalip just north of Seattle where a man died in custody for some reason and an investigation is ongoing.

 

Sometime in the future I intend to click through all the links for the 875 listed individuals killed by police in 2015.

[Donward]

The best headline written this month.

 

Nunchuk-wielding shampoo thief charged in bus-based sword attack

 

A Seattle woman fresh from jail after a nunchuk attack is now accused of chasing a stranger off a King County Metro bus – with a sword.

[Donward]

Headline of the day.

 

Seattle Police: Man's Explosive Bowel Issues Lead To Machete Melee

 

Seattle's infamously slow traffic finally worked to society's advantage Thursday when a machete-wielding man got caught in a traffic jam while trying to evade police.

Officers were called to Capitol Hill's Cal Anderson Park just before 5 p.m. on Thursday after getting reports that a belligerent man was threatening people with a machete and a throwing knife, according to Seattle police.

Witnesses told officers the man was using the women's restroom, and when he was confronted he pulled out a 2-foot-long machete, swung it around and threatened to kill a half dozen people. 

The man then armed himself with a throwing knife and "acted as if he was going to hurl it at his victims," according to police.

 

...

 

...

 

And the best paragraph of the story.

 

Police soon caught up with and arrested the man. They searched his car and found the machete and throwing knife. When asked why he had the weapons, the suspect said he had them because he is a "trained (expletive) killer," according to police.

[Belesarius]

Welp.  Quebec Provincial Police having a rough go of it again.  For those who don't follow, the SQ has not had the best of reputations for dealing fairly with Aboriginals.  This, however, takes things to a whole new level. The SQ handing off the investigation to the Montreal Police is pretty damning. It means that there is enough evidence to take it past IAD and misconduct charges to actual criminal investigation.

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/shocking-claims-of-police-sex-abuse-on-aboriginal-women-have-tensions-rising-in-quebec-city

[Belesarius]

Annnd now the OPP. (Ontario Provincial Police.)  Coercion of testimony, then leaving a potential CI in a cell to get beaten by bikers for not co-operating. 

 

Why the fark would anyone trust the OPP/SQ lately?  Ugh.

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/farmer-who-claims-he-was-jailed-after-refusing-to-be-biker-informant-sues-opp-province

[Donward]

CNN has released video footage of that biker bar shootout in Waco, Texas. I think the surveillance tapes do a good job of portraying the utter confusion that is a gunfight that suddenly pops up in a domestic location and how human beings react to it. Hell, CNN even included the morbidly hilarious reaction of big-titted Twin Peaks waitresses fleeing for their lives.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/29/us/texas-biker-shootout-new-details/

[Belesarius]

I don't know how much people here know about Toronto's G20 incidents, but this is the result of the only officer arrested and charged.  Police accountability? Fuck no.  A loss of 5 days pay for breaching the public trust and whacking someone with a baton multiple times without justification. 

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/11/09/cop-guilty-of-g20-assault-wont-be-fired-but-he-loses-5-days-pay.html

[Belesarius]

And the TPS continues being a shining light of sanity... oh wait. Neverfuckingmind.

 

THUG LYFE

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/11/18/man-sues-toronto-police-for-5m-over-violent-arrest.html

[Belesarius]

19 officers for a simple B&E?  What the everliving fuck?  How can y'all afford that shit?

 

A B & E here in Toronto MIGHT get a cruiser or two on a quiet night.

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/fay-wells-my-white-neighbour-thought-i-was-breaking-into-my-own-apartment-in-santa-monica-nineteen-cops-showed-up

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Santa Monica is very upscale part of southern Cali, IE lots of rich people, mostly white. The cops are all there for just this kinda thing, cant have darkies molesting rich folks!  So, he owned the house, cops are human, they can make mistakes. 

 

If it had been a burglary that was already over they prolly would have only sent one co, if that.

[Donward]

This made more news nationally than it should have.

 

King County Sheriff asks off-duty deputies to carry guns, extra magazines in light of Paris attacks.

 

King County includes Seattle and most of its suburbs. 

 

A lot of police officers already carry off-duty for a variety of reasons so it was odd that Sheriff Urquhart felt the need to make this public, particularly since he is perceived to be more left-leaning in his politics. From what I understand, state LEO's are able to carry in "Gun-Free" areas normally prohibited by law such as schools and bars. However, a private property owner can always ask an off-duty cop to leave. This is an issue since our two taxpayer-funded sports stadiums, CenturyLink Field and Safeco Field (home of the Seahawks and Mariners) prohibit the possession of firearms on the premises. 

[Collimatrix]

There was recently an active shooter incident in Colorado Springs.  It doesn't look like most of the facts are in, but that hasn't stopped a profound amount of speculation and pontification.  This just reinforces rule #1 of disaster reporting, which is that early reports are always wrong and confused.  Probably there should be a rule 1.5 or something about how early reports will always find some way to make the event serve their political views and facts be damned.  Seriously; there were people screaming about how this proved them right about whatever before cops even had cuffs on the scrote.

 

There have been occasional complaints about tanky-looking vehicles for law enforcement, some of it justified (Why MRAPs?  When the hell are they ever going to encounter land mines?).  But this incident provides a shining example of why you might want something tanky-looking.  This could have been a hell of a lot worse if the police didn't have bearcats to ferry people out of the scene.

[Donward]

Pigs have a hard job. But sometimes the criminals make it too damn easy.

 

Seattle Police say man tried snorting cocaine during a traffic stop.

 

[Belesarius]

Pigs have a hard job. But sometimes the criminals make it too damn easy.

 

Seattle Police say man tried snorting cocaine during a traffic stop.

 

The stupid. It burns.

[Sturgeon]

https://www.facebook.com/streetfx/videos/10156054741025112/

[Donward]

This is my shocked face.

Seattle man wrongly imprisoned for 10 years back behind bars

Dealing meth, selling illegal guns and driving a getaway car during a burglary.

Washington state awarded $500,000 to this pillar of the community.

A longer account is here.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/wrongfully-convicted-seattle-man-who-got-500k-from-state-now-charged-with-dealing-meth-selling-stolen-guns/