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The Matt Easton/Nikolas Lloyd Appreciation Thread

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I feel like Matt is overestimating how much modern fighting styles are based on actual combat, in this video:
 



I suspect most martial arts are and were essentially applied and perhaps somewhat modified systems for play fighting. It's much easier and safer to train, you see.

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I'm going to have to call BS on that one. 

Every bit of training we do, be it directly from manuscripts or testing new fighting concepts we developed, is done with intent. You don't actually need to kill your opponent to show that a particular movement will kill someone. You run out of training partners if you kill everyone.  

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I suppose if you speak to the point about "defecting arrows" like some super hero? If you aren't death gripping the shield and you catch a projectile or spear on the edges, it will swing from the impact of the projectile (like it should because physics).

 

That said, if you have a plain linden wood shield, projectiles have a better chance to bite and the shield will split. At that point you will be filled with arrows, axes, or spears. 

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Oh I'm just dying to hear, Tox, how arrows and shields don't obey conservation of momentum.

How much momentum does an arrow have? More to the point, how is the deflection of the shield supposed to reduce penetration when the momentum is only conserved by dint of stopping the projectile?

Your shield won't move at all if the arrow breezes through it.

This idea that things can flap around at less than a metre per second and somehow stop something moving at 50-100 metres per second shows a distinct lack of understanding. It's akin to sticking springs onto a metal plate and expecting it to become significantly better at stopping bullets.

Edit: 'things' should be read here to mean 'things which would otherwise not stop said something'.

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The point is, the arrows don't just breeze through shields. If one is gripping a  shield properly (not a death grip) the force of the impact will swing the shield in your hand and the arrow will end up sticking in your shield. I don't think the video was suggesting someone is attempting to parry an arrow with a shield by meeting it mid flight. That's silliness. 


This does require a properly constructed shield. As I mentioned before, a unfaced shield will split and leave you filled with arrows. 

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Again, the swinging has nothing to do with increasing the protection. The arrow will either penetrate or not (my experience is of the arrow penetrating to about the depth of the head) and will transfer momentum as it does so. The swinging will only substantially take place after the penetration event.

The only thing here that would increase protection would be for the shield to swing violently enough to change the path through the wood or to deform/shatter the arrow before it completes its penetration. Neither of which is going to happen in this case due to the relative masses of the objects and the velocity of the arrow.

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Right, but if you brace it, the arrow is more likely to penetrate than if you allow the transfer of the forward momentum of the arrow to carry through the shield as it turns. It works the same way with a spear. If I put my weight behind the shield and make it a solid surface, you can punch right through it but if I allow it to swing loosely in my hand, the spears forward momentum will transfer to the shield and turn it. It will continue forward but at the angle in which it was deflected off of the shield. 

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A spear is a lot more massive and slow than an arrow.

Feel free to conduct an experiment (identical shields shot with identical arrows, fixed and free-swinging) to test this, but my understanding of physics is that the loose hold simply makes getting hit with an arrow a bit more comfortable. No increase in protection.

If anyone here passed more than two semesters of physics, now would be a good time to chime in.

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I did, but it was a long time ago. My electrical engineering degree covered in dust. I think we are getting something lost in communication here.

There is this.

Similar - did two semesters of physics in 2004, for an electronic engineering degree I never completed. I then spent most of my masters (in biotechnology) grappling with the ballistics of tiny metal particles aimed at plant tissue. Go figure :P

In the interests of clarity, I'm going to lay out the hypothesis that I am disagreeing with:

- an arrow

- strikes a shield

- perpendicularly

- in such a fashion that it would otherwise penetrate

- but is stopped by allowing the rotation of the shield in the hand

Given the relative mass and velocity of the arrow in relation to the shield, and bearing in mind their relative compositions, I feel very confident that I have shown that the above hypothesis is disproved.

Feel free to give me your understanding of the situation.

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That last part is where we got off track. I don't think the arrow is stopped. I think the transfer of forward momentum is increased onto the shield when it is allowed to swivel vs being solid braced. It is reducing the arrow but it won't stop it from penetrating the shield in most cases. 

 

The facing is what keeps arrows from gliding right through. 

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I really don't know where to put this. And since I don't think it deserves its own section, I'm leaving it here.

 

But apparently this is a thing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvNzQ1fWURE

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV3yvOkooYA

Heh, Faxe.  Which was, when I was young and stupid, the go to beverage for the illicit teenage drinker.  They had a 10%abv beer that tasted like unfiltered sewage left to ferment in the open sun. (About the strongest 'beer' availabe)  All the thugs, drunken hippies and wannabe gangsters drank that shit.

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