WoT v WT effort-thread

[Lord_James]

Interesting threads by a WT user to try and calculate realistic shell performance: 

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/426787-realistic-performace-of-apcr-against-flat-armor/

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/418496-realistic-88mm-kwkpak-43-apcbc-performance/

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/419016-realistic-performance-of-soviet-flat-nosed-ap-shells-apbc/

 

There's a couple more, too. Any truth behind all this effort, @Bronezhilet? 

[Meplat]

Still, finding solace in single player creations.  elderly rudder pedals do not get beaten, old HOTAS throttles are not flogged. in frustration..

I fly a Hawker Nimrod, and have fun. Genuine fun. Snaprolling around bots, etc.  It's not the winning, it's the knowing that if I lose, it's because I fucked up, not the network.

 

 

[Meplat]

On 9/23/2018 at 10:43 AM, Lord_James said:

Interesting threads by a WT user to try and calculate realistic shell performance: 

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/426787-realistic-performace-of-apcr-against-flat-armor/

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/418496-realistic-88mm-kwkpak-43-apcbc-performance/

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/419016-realistic-performance-of-soviet-flat-nosed-ap-shells-apbc/

 

There's a couple more, too. Any truth behind all this effort, @Bronezhilet? 

When a 76mm (From a M41) bounces off the front of a PZKfwII, this seems to  indicate  their shot mechanics are a skosh wacky.

Gaijin talks a good game but they seem to lack range time. 

I/e~

"I have seen what a 90mm solid shot does to a chunk of 12" facehardened steel. ".

It blows a fist sized hole right through it. 

I've seen a 25mm Puteaux shred proofed armor.  Shit that does not happen in games, DOES happen in the real world.

The Puteaux was the most amazing. It fucking destroyed modern armor . That little 25mm was badass.

[Toxn]

4 hours ago, Meplat said:

When a 76mm (From a M41) bounces off the front of a PZKfwII, this seems to  indicate  their shot mechanics are a skosh wacky.

Gaijin talks a good game but they seem to lack range time. 

I/e~

"I have seen what a 90mm solid shot does to a chunk of 12" facehardened steel. ".

It blows a fist sized hole right through it. 

I've seen a 25mm Puteaux shred proofed armor.  Shit that does not happen in games, DOES happen in the real world.

The Puteaux was the most amazing. It fucking destroyed modern armor . That little 25mm was badass.

And yet the PzII gets bullshit ahistorical APCR which punches through 50mm plate at range

[Ulric]

11 hours ago, Meplat said:

When a 76mm (From a M41) bounces off the front of a PZKfwII, this seems to  indicate  their shot mechanics are a skosh wacky.

Gaijin talks a good game but they seem to lack range time. 

I/e~

"I have seen what a 90mm solid shot does to a chunk of 12" facehardened steel. ".

It blows a fist sized hole right through it. 

I've seen a 25mm Puteaux shred proofed armor.  Shit that does not happen in games, DOES happen in the real world.

The Puteaux was the most amazing. It fucking destroyed modern armor . That little 25mm was badass.

 

You see, if they actually simulated that, the boos and their precious Nazi trash boxes would get shit on even harder. No longer would Tiger 1 turrets eat D-25 with no consequence, and L7 would be able to pierce Tiger II glacis.

 

Now, that being said, I'm pretty sure that the ML-20 APHE shot will straight up pen panther upper glacis, while in testing it did ricochet off of. It send a considerable portion of it flying back into the fighting compartment when it did so, behaving in a manor similar to the trash compactor on a garbage truck, in addition to cracking every weld, so there end result of dead panther is still the same.

 

There is a lot they need to fix in regards to pentration in war thunder, but most of it is for historical reasons, with only a few game balance issue involved. Mostly US HVAP is a disappointment compared to what it should be, but it would also be somewhat game breaking if it behave properly.

[Meplat]

18 hours ago, Toxn said:

And yet the PzII gets bullshit ahistorical APCR which punches through 50mm plate at range

Meh, Gayjin. Next it'll have DU-AP, for "Balance".

[Meplat]

12 hours ago, Ulric said:

 

You see, if they actually simulated that, the boos and their precious Nazi trash boxes would get shit on even harder. No longer would Tiger 1 turrets eat D-25 with no consequence, and L7 would be able to pierce Tiger II glacis.

 

Now, that being said, I'm pretty sure that the ML-20 APHE shot will straight up pen panther upper glacis, while in testing it did ricochet off of. It send a considerable portion of it flying back into the fighting compartment when it did so, behaving in a manor similar to the trash compactor on a garbage truck, in addition to cracking every weld, so there end result of dead panther is still the same.

 

There is a lot they need to fix in regards to pentration in war thunder, but most of it is for historical reasons, with only a few game balance issue involved. Mostly US HVAP is a disappointment compared to what it should be, but it would also be somewhat game breaking if it behave properly.

I'd be happy if they managed to make the poor old Kingfisher useful.

I own both. 

[Toxn]

On 9/26/2018 at 4:54 AM, Meplat said:

Meh, Gayjin. Next it'll have DU-AP, for "Balance".

I see that the BMP-2's apds rounds are limited to one belt. Any guesses as to whether the German 20mm guns will get the same treatment?

[Lord_James]

3 minutes ago, Toxn said:

I see that the BMP-2's apds rounds are limited to one belt. Any guesses as to whether the German 20mm guns will get the same treatment?

 

Still waiting on German 37mm AA guns getting their APCR, like the Ju 87 Gs. 

[EnsignExpendable]

On 9/23/2018 at 11:43 AM, Lord_James said:

Interesting threads by a WT user to try and calculate realistic shell performance: 

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/426787-realistic-performace-of-apcr-against-flat-armor/

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/418496-realistic-88mm-kwkpak-43-apcbc-performance/

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/419016-realistic-performance-of-soviet-flat-nosed-ap-shells-apbc/

 

There's a couple more, too. Any truth behind all this effort, @Bronezhilet? 

 

A de Marre estimation shows that the performance is almost the same:

 

That de Marre calculator looks awfully familiar

[Ulric]

I had to decorate my Mi-24D a little bit.

 

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

LOL nice eyeball placement. 

 

The Cobra works way better than the 24 as a chopper killer.   

 

I also only notice the view range thing on Soviet birds, cause my soviet pilos suck, my US pilots are almost maxed. 

 

[Meplat]

21 hours ago, Toxn said:

I see that the BMP-2's apds rounds are limited to one belt. Any guesses as to whether the German 20mm guns will get the same treatment?

Depends on the level and scope of "historical adjustment" they decide to implement, to drive sales.

[Meplat]

Random fuckabout matches, seems that the PzIII can frontally penetrate the armor of the M4A3E2,  M26, Super Pershing, and the T34. 

Much "WTF" and laughter ensued. 

 

Gaijin is really losing grip on reality it seems.

[Ulric]

Based AXM-30

 

[Toxn]

This is basically why I don't play air RB anymore:

 

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Yeah, the few times I tried it, that's what  I ran into... 

 

What's funny, is you can still win Air AB when those ass bags are playing alt ambush bs. 

 

Just dive for the deck with a load of ord, bomb the shit of out stuff, win the battle through the ground game, why they rack up their silly K/D and lose the game.  This works well for American planes, cause most of them haul bombs and rockets, and six .50s works well on soft ground stuff, and they have tons of ammo and fast reload, so left alone, you can do a lot of damage. 

 

I do have fun playing planes in tank RB, there are fewer alt monkeys in that mode, but you still get them, but a guy wasting time in a fighter at high alt loses their team the game in that mode too.

 

 

[Ulric]

48 minutes ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

Yeah, the few times I tried it, that's what  I ran into... 

 

What's funny, is you can still win Air AB when those ass bags are playing alt ambush bs. 

 

Just dive for the deck with a load of ord, bomb the shit of out stuff, win the battle through the ground game, why they rack up their silly K/D and lose the game.  This works well for American planes, cause most of them haul bombs and rockets, and six .50s works well on soft ground stuff, and they have tons of ammo and fast reload, so left alone, you can do a lot of damage. 

 

I do have fun playing planes in tank RB, there are fewer alt monkeys in that mode, but you still get them, but a guy wasting time in a fighter at high alt loses their team the game in that mode too.

 

 

 

the only "high altitude" flying I do in tank RB is with the Pe-8, for obvious reasons. I stick with AB most of the time, anyways. RB is still unmitigated ass cancer because of the negative stability of how SP works. Every game is a blowout shitroll, and that just isn't fun. I'm not even going to say that it is better now with SP costs being reduced, it just locks you into the suffering for that much longer.

[Toxn]

2 hours ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

Yeah, the few times I tried it, that's what  I ran into... 

 

What's funny, is you can still win Air AB when those ass bags are playing alt ambush bs. 

 

Just dive for the deck with a load of ord, bomb the shit of out stuff, win the battle through the ground game, why they rack up their silly K/D and lose the game.  This works well for American planes, cause most of them haul bombs and rockets, and six .50s works well on soft ground stuff, and they have tons of ammo and fast reload, so left alone, you can do a lot of damage. 

 

I do have fun playing planes in tank RB, there are fewer alt monkeys in that mode, but you still get them, but a guy wasting time in a fighter at high alt loses their team the game in that mode too.

 

 

That's pretty much my experience as well.

 

I used to play a lot of air RB, but basically the meta is 109s (and, to a slightly lesser extent, spitfires) grinning down at you from around tier 1-6 and you get sick of it after a while.

 

Part of the problem (as you've already pointed out) is that climb meta skews all the other gameplay around it when you can't bomb or strafe out a win very often.

[Toxn]

1 hour ago, Ulric said:

 

the only "high altitude" flying I do in tank RB is with the Pe-8, for obvious reasons. I stick with AB most of the time, anyways. RB is still unmitigated ass cancer because of the negative stability of how SP works. Every game is a blowout shitroll, and that just isn't fun. I'm not even going to say that it is better now with SP costs being reduced, it just locks you into the suffering for that much longer.

I've actually been finding that the new SP system results in a lot more clutch matches. The former rate was about 2%, while currently it's about 25%. That means that I can play 10 matches and have a handful come down to the wire rather than it being a once-in-a-blue-moon thing.

 

What I want now are some decent low-tier counters to the German wheeled deathtrap spam that can push a team back to their spawn points before the match is halfway done.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

6 hours ago, Toxn said:

That's pretty much my experience as well.

 

I used to play a lot of air RB, but basically the meta is 109s (and, to a slightly lesser extent, spitfires) grinning down at you from around tier 1-6 and you get sick of it after a while.

 

Part of the problem (as you've already pointed out) is that climb meta skews all the other gameplay around it when you can't bomb or strafe out a win very often.

I always kinda wondered if you can take a P-38K and hunt those 109 fuckers down, if modeled at all correct it should climb fast and have more power at alt than any 109...

[Toxn]

48 minutes ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

I always kinda wondered if you can take a P-38K and hunt those 109 fuckers down, if modeled at all correct it should climb fast and have more power at alt than any 109...

I think you can, but then you've only increased your pool of meta-viable planes to three instead of two.

 

What I really want to see is a move to redesign maps and restructure point scores so that bombing, strafing and killing all aircraft are equally viable ways to win a match. As a start, I think that putting in an SP system (like all the other modes) and taking away enemy plane target markers might help shift the meta a bit by making low-level raiding more viable. I'd also massively expand the available ground targets and play with their SP returns (destroying a factory gets you more than blowing up a truck). Finally I'd add in proper game modes (including timed missions, escort missions, air support missions etc) to make sure that no one aircraft type is always the best choice.

 

This is well known, but bears repeating: Gaijin are great at introducing new vehicle content but shit at introducing gameplay changes and map updates in a way that goes well beyond caution. We've been playing the same game mode (air RB only has one) the same few maps forever and it sucks.

[Toxn]

It's also insane to me that my favourite form of air combat in the game is... tank RB.

[LoooSeR]

 

[RobotMinisterofTrueKorea]

I've started to go up the German tree. It's an interesting experience. It's less OP than I figured it would be. The Panzer IV with the longer 75mm are solid tanks but, if anyone looks at you, you die horribly. T-34/76s are the bane of my existence whenever I play that tree. Still, they're very potent, and the mix of vulnerability plus lethality makes them pretty fun. The Panzer III is still the unexpected highlight of the tree. The Pz IIIL is EASILY my best tank stats wise with a win rate in the 86% range and a 81:7 KDR. As a weird rule, I'm trying to avoid the big cats and go for the German tanks that receive less Wehrawank. We'll see how long my patience lasts. The end goal is to get to the West German stuff, so I can play Wargame in War Thunder.

 

My biggest takeaway is that the German tree appears to be great gun on shockingly mediocre to outright bad chassis. Except for when it's a bad gun on a shockingly mediocre chasses (Early Pz IV). German HE filler on APHE shells also has interesting characteristics. They don't seem to ever set off ammunition. They will kill crew like there's no tomorrow, but you're banking on spalling from the shell penetration doing a lot of your damage. Maybe it changes later, but it was a surprising lesson. The US tanks have spoiled me.