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Contrary to most accounts, I'm not sure that the point of the precursor charge in a tandem charge warhead is to trigger the ERA.

 

ERA turns out to be pretty insensitive stuff, which is by design.  It would be bad if the ERA detonated when it was being installed or handled, or even if the tank were hit by small-arms fire or something weak like that.

 

So a lot of tandem-charge rounds appear to be designed with a relatively small precursor charge; small enough that it won't (usually) set off ERA.  This makes a hole in the ERA through which the main charge can pass.

Most probably true. I know that the explosive charge 4S24 (used in Relic and can be equipped with Kontakt-5) is supposed to be dramatically more sensitive than 4S22 when it comes to HEAT charges and such. 

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A big article in russian about ERA in USSR http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/dz68.htm or
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tank/dz/1968/  
230ba4c3ebed.jpg
Maquette with U-5TS gun and cast glacis with edges
14.jpgMaquette number 2
20.jpgLayouts of equal glacis constructions, RHA; KDZ-68; RHA-STEF(glass textolite)-RHA
- in USSR in mid 60-s was made KDZ-68 ERA better than mid-80-s Kontakt-5 in durability(destroying only of 5% percent of ERA by hit of SC's versus 30% destroy in K-5);
- Blazer ERA had not any influence on Kontakt-1 ERA, cause K-1 was prepared by the time of Lebanon war started in 1982 and was tested in army;

- Blazer - surname of one of KDZ-68 constructors. Coincidence? Don't think so :D

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The Author in the narod blog claims Blazer was a Soviet development, when IRL it was Rafael's development - an Israeli company.

He shows a general bias and lack of knowledge when it comes to Israeli developments

 

I don't want to be rude but it's not in that way. In Israel there was several imigration waves from WarPac and SovietUnion - including many oficers, engeeners and others. In 1967 War the most popular pilot language was polish for exmaple. From Soviet Union there was sevral emigration waves to Israel and many many weapons project where copied or rather rebuild on some general idea taken from Soviet Union. Not funny for national pround but true.

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I know very well the influence of ex-Soviet immigrants. I'm one as well, but their involvement in some of the more well known project at the time, was not substantial. There's also no way to confirm who was on the design team. All the available info is a certain Rafael division in cooperation with a German scientist (I forgot his name, sorry).

 

According to my father's friend, who used to work for Rafael and Elbit, Russian presence was felt mostly in optronics (night vision mostly) in both these companies, and automotives design in MANTAK. 

It's important to note that armor solutions in the IDF are provided by IMI+MANTAK for heavy applications, and Plasan for light applications. Rafael only deals in Reactive, Hybrid, and Active protection. 

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Because it's highly improbable that Rafael just chose to copy whatever design a few Soviet engineers brought with them, if they even did. And they would not seek other foreign help if they would already have a ready design. Keep in mind the earliest ERA was a very simple design.

 

What IS probable, in my opinion, is that key figures in Rafael heard about the concept itself, of explosive armor, and chose to design one themselves (again, with foreign help). 

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Rafael did probably not receive any Soviet input for the Blazer ERA. However they also did not really "design" ERA, as (Western) ERA was invented and developed by Dr. Manfred Held. Dr. Held has patented numerous different ERA designs between 1967 and 1974. A lot of them can be accessed in the German/European patent office. As wirtten by Marsh, Dr. Held unsuccessfully pitched his ERA designs to numerous countries until he demonstrated his ERA to Israel in 1974.

 

Given that there are patents from 1970 that show an identical ERA layout to Blazer (simple tiles, three layers of the same thickness), all "design" work Rafael probably had to make was chose the size of the ERA tiles for the tanks.

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On 14.12.2016 at 11:31 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

The Author in the narod blog claims Blazer was a Soviet development, when IRL it was Rafael's development - an Israeli company.

He shows a general bias and lack of knowledge when it comes to Israeli developments

Thanks for comment, but these are documents, not just someone's opinion.

So we have the development of ERA in USSR .

It started in 1940-s (first published in 1949).

In 1968 test with above mentioned report.

One of the developers has the name Blazer. Later he repatriated from USSR to his historical motherland.

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On 17.12.2016 at 2:34 PM, SH_MM said:

Rafael did probably not receive any Soviet input for the Blazer ERA. However they also did not really "design" ERA, as (Western) ERA was invented and developed by Dr. Manfred Held. Dr. Held has patented numerous different ERA designs between 1967 and 1974. A lot of them can be accessed in the German/European patent office. As wirtten by Marsh, Dr. Held unsuccessfully pitched his ERA designs to numerous countries until he demonstrated his ERA to Israel in 1974.

 

Given that there are patents from 1970 that show an identical ERA layout to Blazer (simple tiles, three layers of the same thickness), all "design" work Rafael probably had to make was chose the size of the ERA tiles for the tanks.

Well, it's official story. Maybe it is correct, maybe not. It is hard to compare level of Dr. Held works with the Soviet ones which were state supported.

From 1968 to 1975 about 100 000 people migrated from USSR to Israel, it is said the one who was mentioned in 1968 report among the Soviet ERA developer is among them.

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On 21.10.2016 at 1:51 PM, Collimatrix said:

Contrary to most accounts, I'm not sure that the point of the precursor charge in a tandem charge warhead is to trigger the ERA.

So a lot of tandem-charge rounds appear to be designed with a relatively small precursor charge; small enough that it won't (usually) set off ERA.  This makes a hole in the ERA through which the main charge can pass.

It's well describe in many sources - in Pz-3IT, Kornet, Metis-M, etc precursor is non initiating (not igniting ERA casette) - clou is to make a hole in ERA without igniting it. So linear is made not from Cu or Mo but teflon or other non-metalic linears. Whole "cumulative jet" made for such material have low densinity and in some way make big hole without igniting ERA.

 

w09GJJN.jpg

 

[imgfshm8Vr.jpg

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On 16/12/2016 at 5:41 PM, Militarysta said:

 

I don't want to be rude but it's not in that way. In Israel there was several imigration waves from WarPac and SovietUnion - including many oficers, engeeners and others. In 1967 War the most popular pilot language was polish for exmaple. From Soviet Union there was sevral emigration waves to Israel and many many weapons project where copied or rather rebuild on some general idea taken from Soviet Union. Not funny for national pround but true.

"In 1967 War the most popular pilot language was polish for exmaple."

This is frankly laughable.  There was practically no movement of Polish Jews to Israel from the 1950s to 1968. The major movement of 13,000 or so Jews who left Poland after the March 1968 political crises and a surge of antisemitism post dated the Six Day war and of the 13,000. Only 28% went to Israel and fewer stayed. (By the way, no one is  allowed to serve in the IDF unless there Hebrew is reasonably fluent. You are not allowed to use a different native tongue in combat).

The Aliyah of Russian Jews to Israel is an entirely different matter. It was vast and did include a significant number of scientists, engineers and people who had military experience. Even then, it was only in the 1990s that the IDF trusted Russian immigrants to serve in sensitive areas of the military. 

I am well aware that the Soviet Union developed ERA long before the Israelis. I also freely acknowledge that Soviet developments were actually better designed and more effective than the rather primitive first generation Blazer. However, having been involved in researching the origins of Blazer and having been fortunate to sit and chat with Manfred Held on two occasions, I can assure you, it was not developed by Russian emigres. 

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However, having been involved in researching the origins of Blazer and having been fortunate to sit and chat with Manfred Held on two occasions, I can assure you, it was not developed by Russian emigres

OK, so I will take it as real info.

 

btw:

 

This is frankly laughable.  There was practically no movement of Polish Jews to Israel from the 1950s to 1968.

Possible - so sorry for reproduce myth in this topic. I didn't chceck it in sources (credible).

Anyway - my grandmother as only left in Poland in 1949 while rest children from 30 people school class  went to Israeli - so meaby it was the reson why I didn't chceck it... :/

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On 07/01/2016 at 10:11 PM, Bronezhilet said:

I think I actually understand what happens inside an ERA block when a shaped charge hits it and how those two interact. Help me remember to make a post about it this weekend.

Did you ever get around to writing this up?

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So the United Arab Emirates ordered German explosive reactive armor for ~125 million Euros. Does anybody know where this is going to be used? Maybe on the Leclerc or BMP-3?

 

___

Btw:


Slovakian ERA from the T-72M2 Morderna:

3z9ihc6.jpg

Ko0ReyS.png

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So the United Arab Emirates ordered German explosive reactive armor for ~125 million Euros. Does anybody know where this is going to be used? Maybe on the Leclerc or BMP-3?

 

 

What is the source of this ?

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20 minutes ago, Andrei_bt said:

So the United Arab Emirates ordered German explosive reactive armor for ~125 million Euros. Does anybody know where this is going to be used? Maybe on the Leclerc or BMP-3?

 

 

What is the source of this ?

 

Official report on arms exports in the German parliament.

 

20170412_Ruestungsexporte.jpg

Approved for sale to UAE: 203,448 fuzes for 40 mm grenade for a non-disclosed price, aswell as an unknown quantity of reactive armor kits for €125.84 million.

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