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Thanks, very interesting. So multi-layered Schottpanzerung relied on using multiple of same type of Schotte armor arrays in the tests (not mixing different types). Also at 800 meters distance the 105 mm APFSDS penetrates 165 mm steel armor according to TL-2350-001 (i.e. 340 HBW) at 60° (330 mm thickness along line of sight).

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is there any difference between 120 and 105mm APFSDS ? if not then DM13/105 at 200 meters = DM13/120 at 3-3,5km ?

 

interesting that with addon armour T-62 more or less equal to Leopard-2 1977-78 protection requriments...

 

 

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18 hours ago, Sovngard said:

Apparently, its maximum gun elevation didn't exceed +15°, that's too bad, because it would have been perfect as a self-propelled howitzer.

This vehicle is playable in the video game War Thunder but the ammo racks configuration is somewhat different :

Spoiler

 

1561153088-ammoracks-object-1202.png

 

 

 

 

 


Regarding its armor-piercing sub-caliber projectile, was it a 152 mm APDS or APFSDS ? It's not specified.

 

 

   Looks like those were APFSDS, according to stats table

Quote

/.../

Penetration with a fin-stabilized sabot projectile against steel - 295 mm along the normal at a distance of 3500 m.

/.../

 

Also

Quote

/.../

Due to the fact that for a 130-mm rifled gun NII-24 developed only an armor-piercing subcaliber projectile, and for a 152.4-mm cannon - a HEAT and armor-piercing projectiles with fins,

/.../

 

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2 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

is there any difference between 120 and 105mm APFSDS ? if not then DM13/105 at 200 meters = DM13/120 at 3-3,5km ? 

 

Apparently mid-1970s variant of DM13 looses 75 m/s per kilometer; fired from the 105 mm smoothbore gun, the velocity (measured at 50 m distance) ranges between 1,376 and 1,392.5 m/s, from the 120 mm smoothbore gun the muzzle velocity is just stated as 1,650 m/s.

ZXEorq3aMzI.jpg

 

Assuming the deceleration stays consistent, after travelling 3,500 m the 120 mm DM13 will reach the v50 of the 105 mm variant. The ballistic tests against the T-62 were conducted with a firing distance of 200 m, but the penetration data shown in the Sicherheitskurve is for 800 m. At 200 m, the penetration of the APFSDS should be slightly higher.

 

It seems that the 120 mm DM13 APFSDS can penetrate more than 330 mm (165 mm at 60°) at a range of ~3,500 to 4,000 m. I probably underestimated its penetration power earlier. This is somewhat consistent with the tests against the (incorrectly) simulated T-64 hull armor, where 100 mm at 70° (292 mm effective thickness at the line of sight) could be defeated at ~4.300 m distance.

 

Given how poorly it performed against the simulated T-64's hull armor with spaced applique plate (was this also a multi-layered Schotte array?), it seems that DM13 really suffered against complex/spaced armor arrays, penetration is reduced to just ~336 mm armor (effective thickness, not equivalent protection) at ~1,240 m distance.

 

 

 

 

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   Uran-9 aka "how many weapons will it have? - Yes". They added some simple cover for RPG launchers.

48108816597_8ac8c6f097_b.jpg

 

   Typhoon-VDV

48108813157_ba72e126cb_b.jpg

 

   2S25M "Sprut-SDM1"

48108809797_feb558c1bb_b.jpg

 

   BMP-3 with addition protection kit

48108698191_f7a81a3a6e_b.jpg

 

   BTR-3F

48108699191_850cc52c23_b.jpg

 

   Whatever that thing is

48108740908_99e584a176_b.jpg

 

   VPK-Ural (updated Ural-53099)

48108745248_95515fe2b8_b.jpg

 

   BTR-82AT with additional cage armor and armor plating kit

48108744883_72c74ea033_b.jpg

 

   Updated VPK-3924 SPM-3

48108811647_09475c4f3d_b.jpg

 

Spoiler

48108701601_d790a0d301_b.jpg

 

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   Tigr Next official name is Tigr ASN

Quote

   New armored vehicle "Tiger ASN"

   With 4 x 4 wheel arrangement, it is intended for transportation of personnel and military goods with the required level of protection. To replace the ASN Tigr-M SPN. The premiere of "Tiger ASN" will be held at the International Military-Technical Forum "Army-2019", which opens June 25, 2019 in Kubinka

 

   photo: Ltd. "Military Industrial Company" (MIC)

   (c) Military Informant / Rustam Bogaudinov

 

c7I5SUB.jpg

 

Spoiler

09QpLsB.jpg

 

dzRghdF.jpg

 

RBkB3ff.jpg

 

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   About new Tigr:

Quote

   Tiger Next from GAZ

   /.../

   The car was developed by the GAZ Group's Military-Industrial Company (VPK), it also produces the Tiger of the current model.

   /.../

   According to Drom.ru, the armored car took over the frame, bridges and engine from the current Tiger (this is the 4.4-liter turbodiesel YMZ-534 with a capacity of 215 hp), but the transmission was replaced. The current one [old Tigr] is equipped with a 5-speed domestic manual transmission or a 5-step Alliance 1000 automatic transmission (USA). On the Tiger Next , the GAZ-1K0808 hydromechanical “automatic” with six ranges was used. The production of this gearbox is currently being set up by GAZ Group, a month ago the company certified the Vector Next bus with this “automat”. The SUV drive is permanent full 4x4.

 

   The main feature of the Next Tiger is a new armored body. It is designed according to the principles of MRAP, armored vehicles with enhanced mine protection. A key feature of MRAP is a bottom with a V-shaped profile that dissipates the energy of an explosion. The Tiger of the first generation does not have a mine protection. In addition, the new Tiger has a higher load-carrying capacity and a more convenient layout of the cabin.

 

   Note that the development of the Next Tiger began in 2017, research and development was conducted with money from the Ministry of Defense.

 

   Inside of that thing. Looks like normal Tigr with small changes in the back, AFAIK.

fSVKn6I.jpg

 

Spoiler

NppIHqn.jpg

 

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Spoiler

 

The ATGM are still Ataka? The mounting seems changed from last year, now the missiles are placed next to each other horizontally

On the other hand at 0:06 three types of APFSDS are visible, can they be identified?
 

 

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   As Sergei Suvorov, head of media relations and advertising at Military Industrial Company LLC, noted in an interview with RG: Russian Weapon, on the eve of the forum, some sources were quick to call this new vehicle as the Tiger Next or Tiger-2.

 

   “In fact, these are unofficial designations; we represent it here as the “Tiger of a new generation” or “Athlete”, because it was created under design program with same name” said Sergey Suvorov.

   “If we talk about the armored car itself, then over time it should replace the current production version of the Tiger,” he also added.

   The new machine has all the features improved. It was created taking into account the large experience of the combat use of armored vehicles obtained in various "hot spots". For example, the mine resistance was significantly improved, as a result, the ability to withstand explosions of ammunition up to 6 kg in TNT equivalent under the bottom or wheel.

    The gross weight is about 9 tons. Capacity, depending on the modification, from two to eight people. The engine is still 240 hp, with more power in the future. Maximum speed - at least 120 km / h. Max range - 1000 km.

   At the request of the customer, vehicle can be equipped with various weapons, including remotely controlled combat modules. As well as the currently released version, the new "Tiger" can serve as base for the installation of various weapons and combat systems.

 

Quote

   “We created the hull, using spaced armor. I personally shot this machine from 30 m with a SVD with a heat-strengthened core bullet. The material was not penetrated” the company’s CEO told to Zvezda.

https://iz.ru/820798/2018-12-06/v-voenno-promyshlennoi-kompanii-rasskazali-o-tekhnicheskikh-osobennostiakh-tigra-2

 

   Tigr Next or Tigr-2 or Tigr Athlete or Tigr ASN, lol. 9 tons, 240 hp 6.7l engine so far, GAZ own automatic transmission, 120 km/h max speed on road, range - up to 1000 km, resistant to detonation of up to 6 kg of explosive under bottom and protects against AP bullets from SVD from 30 meters.

 

   Also:

Quote

   The head of the company also talked about plans to equip BTR-82 armored personnel carriers with the Ataka anti-tank missile systems.

   Krasovitsky told about plans to make a vehicle with more serious weapons. The tests have already passed, he noted, adding that the Ataka system was operating at a distance of 6 km.

 

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“We created the hull, using spaced armor. I personally shot this machine from 30 m with a SVD with a heat-strengthened core bullet. The material was not penetrated” the company’s CEO told to Zvezda.

 

Sort-of-direct translation of "hardened", or were they talking about steel cored AP? Seems to me that "hardened" could include WC cores, but "heat-strengthened" suggests just steel (and steel cored 7.62 at 30m seems kinda dull, with the gerpercers the US is looking at)

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2 hours ago, Xlucine said:

 

Sort-of-direct translation of "hardened", or were they talking about steel cored AP? Seems to me that "hardened" could include WC cores, but "heat-strengthened" suggests just steel (and steel cored 7.62 at 30m seems kinda dull, with the gerpercers the US is looking at)

   Material was not given, direct quote was "с термоупрочненным сердечником" which literally translates as "with heat strengthened core".

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   Mango-M (modernized Mango) and Svinets-2 APFSDS rounds for 125 mm guns (2A26 and 2A46M).

http://tecmash.ru/media/novosti/tekhmash-prodemonstriruet-novye-snaryady-na-armii-2019.html

oJJRMHv.jpg

   Mango-M

Quote

   "Mango-M" is an export-oriented shot. One of its main advantages is full compatibility with the autoloaders of T-72 and T-90, which does not require the introduction of structural changes. In our opinion, this can play a key role in the selection of this ammunition by our foreign partners, who are armed with modern Russian-made tanks” said Vladimir Lepin, General Director of the Tehmash Concern.

 

xcx1U3y.jpg

   Svinets-2 on the right

Quote

   “These are the latest models of ammunition, the armor penetration rate of which has been increased by more than 20%. If a regular shot penetrates 230 mm of an obstacle, then for “Mango-M” this indicator is equal to 280 mm, and for a shot “Svinets-2” - 300 mm. Improved technical characteristics of ammunition ensure the destruction of practically the entire spectrum of armored weapons and military equipment of a potential enemy over a distance of more than 2 km” said the industrial director of Rostec Sergey Abramov.

 

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   Tigr Atlet/Next 

TjnG0l8.jpg

 

   BTR-82AT

IBO6La8.jpg

   Source (in Russian)

Quote

   The BTR-82AT, along with the Atlet armored vehicle, is presented to the public for the first time. Unlike the base version, the BTR-82A, the upgraded armored personnel carrier is equipped with a combined gunner's sight with thermal, optical and rangefinding laser channels with stabilization of the visual field in the vertical plane. This increases the accuracy of shooting /.../

   Another difference immediately striking - vehicle is equipped with protective screens on the hull and the combat module. Their installation protects rear and side projections of the BTR from penetration by large-caliber machine guns. In addition, anti-HEAT grille will save the crew of the BTR-82AT from reactive anti-tank grenades.

   Anti-HEAT screens increased the combat weight of the BTR to 17.5 tons. This limited the ability of the armored personnel carrier to overcome water obstacles by swimming. However, this problem is solved by dismantling the passive protection kit.

   "Currently modernized vehicle is coming to test trails. The Minister of Defense announced the delivery of updated equipment for service this year, and we have to meet the deadlines. It is likely that the active test phase will start in August," said Sergei Suvorov, head of the direction on work with the media company "VPK".

   The company also notes that the modernization of the BTR-82A vehicles in service to the BTR-82AT level is possible at the locations of the customer [units?].

   

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When did Soviet tanks get independent commander’s thermal sights? I think I remember it was in the 90s, with the T-80U and T-90, but I have some doubts. 

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   Pasholok's photo of new Nakidka (i think)

AOWJFAB.jpg

 

   Also:

https://ria.ru/20190627/1555953469.html

Quote

   BMP-3 with the latest module "Epokha" is being tested by the Ministry of Defense

   June 27 - RIA News. Infantry fighting vehicles BMP-3, equipped with the latest combat module "Epokha", are being tested at the Russian Defense Ministry, told RIA Novosti in the press service of the holding "High-precision complexes" (part of Rostec)
   "Currently, BMP-3 with Epokha are being tested at the sites of the Ministry of Defense. In accordance with the terms of the supply contract, samples are being manufactured. Deliveries will be started after the tests are completed," the company said.
   Earlier on the forum "Army-2018" between the Ministry of Defense and the holding "High-precision Complexes" a contract was signed for the supply of infantry fighting vehicles with a new combat module "Epoch".

 

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6598379

Quote

   KUBINKA / Moscow Region /, June 27. / Tass /. The new light amphibious tank is being developed in Russia on the basis of the Sprut-SDM1 self-propelled anti-tank gun. This was reported by TASS in the framework of the forum "Army-2019" by chief designer of JSC "SKBM" (part of the holding "High-precision complexes") Sergei Abdulov.

   "Work is underway to create a lightweight non-airdroppable but amphibious tank on the basis of the Sprut-SDM1. The new vehicle will receive enhanced protection and a different suspension compared to the Sprut, the torsion suspension from the BMP-3 will be used, which is more reliable and less whimsical, than hydropneumatic at "Sprut", - he told. The designer added that "the weapon of new light tank will remain the same [as on Sprut]".

   He did not specify the name of the new project.
/.../

 

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6598879

Quote

   BMP-3 for the Russian army will be equipped with additional protection

   According to the chief designer of the JSC "Special Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering" Sergey Abdulov, this decision was made on the basis of the antiterrorist operation in Syria

   KUBINKA / Moscow Region /, June 27. / Tass /. Infantry fighting vehicles BMP-3 will receive additional protection in the form of anti-HEAT cages and steel screens to withstand an RPG hit. It is planned to sign a contract for the supply of sets of such protection kits for the Russian troops, on Thursday at the Army-2019 forum the chief designer of the JSC Special Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering (part of the High-precision Complex) Sergei Abdulov told to TASS.

   Abdulov explained that interest in providing enhanced protection for the BMP-3 appeared among the military as a result of the antiterrorist operation in Syria. "Now passed departmental tests and almost signed a contract for the supply of a set of additional protection, which includes steel screens and anti-HEAT cages" - he said.

/.../

   This kit at Army 2019:

48108698191_f7a81a3a6e_b.jpg

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      ATTENTION DUELISTS:
      @Toxn
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      @Lord_James
      @DIADES
      @Datengineerwill
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      detailed below is the expected format of the final submission.
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      [insert 3-projection (front, top, side) and isometric render of vehicle here)



      Table of basic statistics:

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      Value

      Mass, combat


       
      Length, combat (transport)


       
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      Height, combat (transport)


       
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      1.     Link to Appendix 1- RFP spreadsheet, colored to reflect achieved performance.

      2.     Engine- type, displacement, rated power, cooling, neat features.

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      A sandwich of 15mm steel/3mm explodium/9mm steel.
      Requires mounting brackets of approximately 10-30% cassette weight.
      Must be spaced at least 3 sandwich thicknesses away from any other armor elements to allow full functionality. 81% coverage (edge effects).

                                                                  xi.     NERA-light

      A sandwich of 6mm steel/6mm rubber/ 6mm steel.
      Requires mounting brackets of approximately 10-30% cassette weight.
      Must be spaced at least 1 sandwich thickness away from any other armor elements to allow full functionality. 95% coverage.

                                                                 xii.     NERA-heavy

      A sandwich of 30mm steel/6m rubber/18mm steel.
      Requires mounting brackets of approximately 10-30% cassette weight.
      Must be spaced at least 1 sandwich thickness away from any other armor elements to allow full functionality. 95% coverage.

      The details of how to calculate armor effectiveness will be detailed in Appendix 1.

      b.      Firepower

                                                                    i.     2A46 equivalent tech- pressure limits, semi-combustible cases, recoil mechanisms and so on are at an equivalent level to that of the USSR in the year 1960.

                                                                   ii.     Limited APFSDS (L:D 15:1)- Spindle sabots or bourelleted sabots, see for example the Soviet BM-20 100mm APFSDS.

                                                                  iii.     Limited tungsten (no more than 100g per shot)

                                                                  iv.     Californian shaped charge technology- 5 CD penetration for high-pressure resistant HEAT, 6 CD for low pressure/ precision formed HEAT.

                                                                   v.     The general issue GPMG for the People’s Auditory Forces is the PKM. The standard HMG is the DShK.

      c.       Mobility

                                                                    i.     Engines tech level:

      1.      MB 838 (830 HP)

      2.      AVDS-1790-5A (908 HP)

      3.      Kharkov 5TD (600 HP)

                                                                   ii.     Power density should be based on the above engines. Dimensions are available online, pay attention to cooling of 1 and 3 (water cooled).

                                                                  iii.     Power output broadly scales with volume, as does weight. Trying to extract more power from the same size may come at the cost of reliability (and in the case of the 5TD, it isn’t all that reliable in the first place).

                                                                  iv.     There is nothing inherently wrong with opposed piston or 2-stroke engines if done right.

      d.      Electronics

                                                                    i.     LRFs- unavailable

                                                                   ii.     Thermals-unavailable

                                                                  iii.     I^2- limited

      3.      Operational Requirements.

      The requirements are detailed in the appended spreadsheet.

      4.      Submission protocols.

      Submission protocols and methods will be established in a follow-on post, nearer to the relevant time.
       
      Appendix 1- armor calculation
      Appendix 2- operational requirements
       
      Good luck, and may Hubbard guide your way to enlightenment!
    • By Collimatrix
      Shortly after Jeeps_Guns_Tanks started his substantial foray into documenting the development and variants of the M4, I joked on teamspeak with Wargaming's The_Warhawk that the next thing he ought to do was a similar post on the T-72.
       
      Haha.  I joke.  I am funny man.
       
      The production history of the T-72 is enormously complicated.  Tens of thousands were produced; it is probably the fourth most produced tank ever after the T-54/55, T-34 and M4 sherman.
       
      For being such an ubiquitous vehicle, it's frustrating to find information in English-language sources on the T-72.  Part of this is residual bad information from the Cold War era when all NATO had to go on were blurry photos from May Day parades:
       

       
      As with Soviet aircraft, NATO could only assign designations to obviously externally different versions of the vehicle.  However, they were not necessarily aware of internal changes, nor were they aware which changes were post-production modifications and which ones were new factory variants of the vehicle.  The NATO designations do not, therefore, necessarily line up with the Soviet designations.  Between different models of T-72 there are large differences in armor protection and fire control systems.  This is why anyone arguing T-72 vs. X has completely missed the point; you need to specify which variant of T-72.  There are large differences between them!
       
      Another issue, and one which remains contentious to this day, is the relation between the T-64, T-72 and T-80 in the Soviet Army lineup.  This article helps explain the political wrangling which led to the logistically bizarre situation of three very similar tanks being in frontline service simultaneously, but the article is extremely biased as it comes from a high-ranking member of the Ural plant that designed and built the T-72.  Soviet tank experts still disagree on this; read this if you have some popcorn handy.  Talking points from the Kharkov side seem to be that T-64 was a more refined, advanced design and that T-72 was cheap filler, while Ural fans tend to hold that T-64 was an unreliable mechanical prima donna and T-72 a mechanically sound, mass-producible design.
       
      So, if anyone would like to help make sense of this vehicle, feel free to post away.  I am particularly interested in:
       
      -What armor arrays the different T-72 variants use.  Diagrams, dates of introduction, and whether the array is factory-produced or a field upgrade of existing armor are pertinent questions.
       
      -Details of the fire control system.  One of the Kharkov talking points is that for most of the time in service, T-64 had a more advanced fire control system than contemporary T-72 variants.  Is this true?  What were the various fire control systems in the T-64 and T-72, and what were there dates of introduction?  I am particularly curious when Soviet tanks got gun-follows-sight FCS.
       
      -Export variants and variants produced outside the Soviet Union.  How do they stack up?  Exactly what variant(s) of T-72 were the Iraqis using in 1991?

      -WTF is up with the T-72's transmission?  How does it steer and why is its reverse speed so pathetically low?
       
       
    • By LoooSeR
      Hello, my friends and Kharkovites, take a sit and be ready for your brains to start to work - we are going to tell you a terrible secret of how to tell apart Soviet tanks that actually works like GLORIOUS T-80 and The Mighty T-72 from Kharkovites attempt to make a tank - the T-64. Many of capitalists Westerners have hard time understanding what tank is in front of them, even when they know smart words like "Kontakt-5" ERA. Ignoramus westerners!
       
       
         Because you are all were raised in several hundreds years old capitalism system all of you are blind consumer dummies, that need big noisy labels and shiny colorful things to be attached to product X to be sold to your ignorant heads and wallets, thats why we will need to start with basics. BASICS, DA? First - how to identify to which tank "family" particular MBT belongs to - to T-64 tree, or T-72 line, or Superior T-80 development project, vehicles that don't have big APPLE logo on them for you to understand what is in front of you. And how you can do it in your home without access to your local commie tank nerd? 
       
       
         Easy! Use this Putin approved guide "How to tell appart different families of Soviet and Russian tanks from each other using simple and easy to spot external features in 4 steps: a guide for ignorant western journalists and chairborn generals to not suck in their in-depth discussions on the Internet".
       
       
       
      Chapter 1: Where to look, what to see.
       
      T-64 - The Ugly Kharkovite tank that doesn't work 
       
         We will begin with T-64, a Kharkovite attempt to make a tank, which was so successful that Ural started to work on their replacement for T-64 known as T-72. Forget about different models of T-64, let's see what is similar between all of them.
       
       
       

       
       
         
       
       
      T-72 - the Mighty weapon of Workers and Peasants to smash westerners
       
         Unlike tank look-alike, made by Kharkovites mad mans, T-72 is true combat tank to fight with forces of evil like radical moderate barbarians and westerners. Thats why we need to learn how identify it from T-64 and you should remember it's frightening lines!
       

       
       
       
      The GLORIOUS T-80 - a Weapon to Destroy and Conquer bourgeois countries and shatter westerners army
       
         And now we are looking at the Pride of Party and Soviet army, a true tank to spearhead attacks on decadent westerners, a tank that will destroy countries by sucking their military budgets and dispersing their armies in vortex of air, left from high-speed charge by the GLORIOUS T-80!

      The T-80 shooting down jets by hitting them behind the horizont 
          
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