The Soviet Tank Thread: Transversely Mounted 1000hp Engines

[Sturgeon]

Welcome Andrey! We are glad to have you here!

[AndreyKryuchenko]

Welcome Andrey! We are glad to have you here!

Thank you, I have a bit of unpublished photos from this parade, I hope I will have enough time, that would finally publish them all.

[AndreyKryuchenko]

2S19 Msta-S

[Collimatrix]

When I found the second picture, it said that it was an actual T-72 turret mounted on a Leopard 1 sometime after unification. Whether that's true or not, I haven't a clue.

 

 

Holy crap, I think that is right.  Look at the engine deck and the angle of the glacis.

[Tied]

you guys are casuals

 

Ive masturbated to seen alot of T-72s and in my day, and that is cleary a leopard 1 chassis 

[EnsignExpendable]

Great, so is it the Quadruple or Quintuple Soviet now? I forgot someone I think.

 

[Khand-e]

 

Legit as fuck post.

[Life_In_Black]

Holy crap, I think that is right.  Look at the engine deck and the angle of the glacis.

 

Having thought about it earlier, who on earth is such a conversion trying to appeal to? To my knowledge, nobody ever operated both the Leopard 1 and the T-72, and anybody who had access to one of those certainly didn't need the other one. I think this can be chalked up to "Germany" again.

 

EDIT: I found something that it may have been a German project for India back in the '90s, but as to whether that's true or not I haven't a clue either. We do have color now though!

 

Oh, and on a related note, Colli will be happy to know that Romania did indeed develop a stretched T-72 because reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-125

[Collimatrix]

They had lots of weird Leo 1 test rigs, like this one with the three-axis stabilization:

 

 

Maybe it's to test... something?

[Tied]

Having thought about it earlier, who on earth is such a conversion trying to appeal to? To my knowledge, nobody ever operated both the Leopard 1 and the T-72, and anybody who had access to one of those certainly didn't need the other one. I think this can be chalked up to "Germany" again.

 

EDIT: I found something that it may have been a German project for India back in the '90s, but as to whether that's true or not I haven't a clue either. We do have color now though!

 

Oh, and on a related note, Colli will be happy to know that Romania did indeed develop a stretched T-72 because reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-125

 

wasnt there a test where a Romanian T-55 outskilled an M1a2

[Life_In_Black]

They had lots of weird Leo 1 test rigs, like this one with the three-axis stabilization:

 

 

Maybe it's to test... something?

 

Maybe. Like I said, I found mention of it possibly being something for India (which wouldn't surprise me given India's military being a hodgepodge of almost everything), but I also found something on it possibly being a proposal by GIAT in France of upgrading older tanks with T-72 turrets. Hell, I don't even know if it's real or anything.

 

EDIT: Now I've found something about it possibly being for Malaysia. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

 

EDIT 2: Found slightly more about it possibly being Malaysian, apparently Malaysia trialled the Leopard 1A5 but ended up going with the Polish PT-91. In a last ditch effort, the Germans tried changing their minds by giving them the best of both worlds. (cue Van Halen). Of course whether this is actually true or internet hearsay, is beyond me. I've found three different stories at this point.

[Tied]

Just give them the fucking east German T-72s instead, the latter ones were better than the first Leopard 2 production run 

[Collimatrix]

Interesting digging Life.

 

I too am having difficulty figuring out how grafting a T-72 turret to a Leo 1 hull isn't just watering down the T-72.  CBA to look up engine and suspension figures, but the Leo 1 might have a slight edge there.  But at the cost of making it taller and having no hull armor?  Why?!

[Life_In_Black]

Interesting digging Life.

 

I too am having difficulty figuring out how grafting a T-72 turret to a Leo 1 hull isn't just watering down the T-72.  CBA to look up engine and suspension figures, but the Leo 1 might have a slight edge there.  But at the cost of making it taller and having no hull armor?  Why?!

 

Because Germany? Near as I can tell, that artist's impression of what the conversion would look like appeared in a military magazine back in the '90s. http://www.track-link.com/gallery/6005/6

 

I just can't see any benefit to it though, as it not only complicates logistics, but the Leopard 1 was outdated by that point in time anyway and didn't hold up nearly as well as the T-72 has.

[Sturgeon]

Here's an idea. What if the T-72s East Germany had weren't in good automotive shape, and the Leopard 1s were? It might be a way to upgrade somewhat antiquated but functional Leopard 1 tanks with a more modern turret.

[Tied]

Better to spend some time upgrading a T-72 then to drive around in that abomination on tracks

 

I hate the leopard one as much as you guys hate 6.8

 

its a prentious, ugly, stupid design that naziboo's flaunt around becuase they think there so smart for building a tank that isnt 30 tons overweight

 

not to mention the whole cult of the L7 becuase the Isreali's managed to kill some goat farmers driving T-55s like teenagers and you have one of the most sperged over tanks only which upramored variants from other country's have actually used in combat 

[Life_In_Black]

Here's an idea. What if the T-72s East Germany had weren't in good automotive shape, and the Leopard 1s were? It might be a way to upgrade somewhat antiquated but functional Leopard 1 tanks with a more modern turret.

 

I can't imagine the Leopards would have been in any better shape. And even then, there were plenty of East German T-55s that could just as easily have been given either the 125mm cannon or the entire T-72 turret, and at least in that case most people would have the logistics to keep the hulls going given how commonplace the T-55 was. I think the biggest argument against it however, is that suppose you need spare parts to keep said tank fleet running. With a Leopard 1 chassis and a T-72 turret, you need parts from two totally different places, thus complicating logistics. Germany may be able to supply such stuff for a short while, but that will run out eventually. By just going with a T-72, you not only simply things to one single country for spare parts, but the sheer number of T-72s around and countries operating them means that acquiring spare parts isn't going to be a problem at all. Plus, cannabalizing other tanks for spare parts is greatly simplified as you know the parts are not only all interchangeable, but that each T-72 turret is going to fit on each T-72 chassis without any modifications. Who knows what was involved to mount the T-72 turret on the Leopard 1 as I don't even know if they had the same size turret ring or if the Leopard has enough internal room for the auto loader to work effectively. Plus as I said, a cheaper alternative would be to use the T-55 chassis, as that thing is available from almost everywhere and while it complicates logistics slightly, at least you'd be able to get parts from one country instead of two.

[Life_In_Black]

Better to spend some time upgrading a T-72 then to drive around in that abomination on tracks

 

I hate the leopard one as much as you guys hate 6.8

 

its a prentious, ugly, stupid design that naziboo's flaunt around becuase they think there so smart for building a tank that isnt 30 tons overweight

 

not to mention the whole cult of the L7 becuase the Isreali's managed to kill some goat farmers driving T-55s like teenagers and you have one of the most sperged over tanks only which upramored variants from other country's have actually used in combat 

 

Funnily enough, the Israelis initially hated the Centurion and weren't impressed with the 105mm L7. It took Israel Tal himself to correct that by making them learn the ins and outs of the Centurion and the gun.

[Collimatrix]

Here's an idea. What if the T-72s East Germany had weren't in good automotive shape, and the Leopard 1s were? It might be a way to upgrade somewhat antiquated but functional Leopard 1 tanks with a more modern turret.

 

 

Mmm, possible.  Or perhaps some critical component of the T-72 needed to be sourced from Russia, like the engines or transmissions (similar to problems Russia had maintaining the T-80 fleet since a lot of the parts come from Ukraine).

 

A tank is going to go through tracks quickly if the crews are training heavily, and engines and transmissions will need replacement routinely.  Fire control systems, guns and other stuff in the turret?  Not so much.

 

The case for swapping the hulls to gain mobility is not compelling:

 

T-72 suspension has on the order of 370mm total travel, vs. 450 for Leo 1.  Leo 1 also has a smidge higher nominal power to weight ratio, but I suspect that T-72 has a more efficient transmission, so power at the sprocket is probably a wash.

 

Per Xlucine's conversation with an old NVA T-72 driver, T-72 has a weird geared steering system, while Leo 1 has a two speed double differential with diff lockout for straight going.  Ground pressure is very similar for both vehicles.

 

So... this conversion gives you maybe a little bit of better suspension performance on rough ground, and maybe a bit more maneuverability (notably the ability to neutral steer).

 

In exchange, you go from having hull armor that can shrug off multiple RPG-7s to having hull armor that keeps out rain and harsh language, and you're several inches taller.

[Tied]

You know i just realized 

 

They probably have to load the gun manually, i cant imagine they managed to fit the auto-loader system into the Leopard 1 chassis, even then its probably going to be moving very slowly and wont be able to store alot of ammo 

[Collimatrix]

I think the autoloader could be made to fit.  The Leo 1's hull is most likely deeper than the T-72s, (Soviet tanks have tiny hulls, remember?), and per figures pulled from the interwebs, the T-72's turret ring is only 20mm or so wider (2000mm vs 1980mm).

 

I'm actually doubtful that the T-72's turret ring diameter is that wide.  If you look at this picture of a T-72 and a (slightly dead) T-55, you can see that the three-man turret of the T-55 is quite a bit larger than the two-man turret of the T-72:

 

 

Furthermore, if these models are to be believed, the hull paniers that hold the outermost section of the turret ring are larger on the T-55 than on the T-72:

 

 

 

Yes, the T-72 does have a slightly wider chassis, but it's not by much as they both have to fit on the same train cars.

 

 

 

Not saying that putting T-72 turrets on Leo 1 chassis is in any way, shape or form a good idea, but I think it's doable.

[Tied]

[AndreyKryuchenko]

[LoooSeR]

UAF use this musem piece - BMR-1, based on Su-122-54 chassis.

 

 

 

[LoooSeR]

Hezbollah in Qalamun, note their BMP-1.

 

Syrian Army T-72 near Palmyra. Another Hezbollah-relate picture (note one crewmember wear Hezbollah insignia).