Minimum wage in the US

[CrashbotUS]

It's pretty hard to "pull yourself up by your boot straps" when someone keeps stealing your boots. 

[Sturgeon]

Sorta playing Devil's Advocate here, Walt (see: Agnostic on this issue), what do you say about the concern that a minimum wage takes away an employer's ability to reward good work, because it forces him to pay more for poor work? E.g., I have a pool of 45/hr that I can pay my three employees. Jill works the hardest and gets the most done, while Balthazar is a bit of a stoner and is much less efficient. Finally, Tim is lazy and unproductive. With a 15/hr minimum wage, I have to pay each 15/hr, effectively removing any incentive for my employees to work hard*. Without a minimum wage, or with a lower one, I can pay each according to their productivity, and indeed I should want to, since it may encourage the less productive to work harder.

*Harder work and higher productivity create value, which helps the economy probably a lot more than spending does (see: WWII). This is hardly ever mentioned in the "national conversation".

[Walter_Sobchak]

Sorta playing Devil's Advocate here, Walt (see: Agnostic on this issue), what do you say about the concern that a minimum wage takes away an employer's ability to reward good work, because it forces him to pay more for poor work? E.g., I have a pool of 45/hr that I can pay my three employees. Jill works the hardest and gets the most done, while Balthazar is a bit of a stoner and is much less efficient. Finally, Tim is lazy and unproductive. With a 15/hr minimum wage, I have to pay each 15/hr, effectively removing any incentive for my employees to work hard*. Without a minimum wage, or with a lower one, I can pay each according to their productivity, and indeed I should want to, since it may encourage the less productive to work harder.

*Harder work and higher productivity create value, which helps the economy probably a lot more than spending does (see: WWII). This is hardly ever mentioned in the "national conversation".

I'm more concerned with the notion that you don't have any money at all to pay your employees because you were put out of business by Walmart when they moved into town and then paid everyone the absolute minimum that they could.  As to the specific scenario you put forward, perhaps having certain exemptions for businesses under a certain size?  

[Donward]

Right, you convinced me, let's have McDonalds continue to rake in massive profits while its employees apply for food stamps. It's their fault they're not successful, after all.

This is me being pedantic, which is a founding principal of SH, but isn't McDonalds doing crappy from a financial standpoint just now? Which is a good thing from a "free market" perspective since the company puts out a crappy, unhealthy product.

[Sturgeon]

I'm more concerned with the notion that you don't have any money at all to pay your employees because you were put out of business by Walmart when they moved into town and then paid everyone the absolute minimum that they could.  As to the specific scenario you put forward, perhaps having certain exemptions for businesses under a certain size?  

 

Yeah, that was my next thought: Doesn't a minimum wage hurt small businesses way more than it hurts the big soulless corps that everybody hates?

[Walter_Sobchak]

This is me being pedantic, which is a founding principal of SH, but isn't McDonalds doing crappy from a financial standpoint just now? Which is a good thing from a "free market" perspective since the company puts out a crappy, unhealthy product.

This is probably relevant.  

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/08/the-magical-world-where-mcdonalds-pays-15-an-hour-its-australia/278313/

[Sturgeon]

Uh, yeah, so 1 $AUS is equivalent to .70 $US. They're getting paid just over $10/hr, which is not ridiculous.

[Donward]

That's interesting Walt. I'm just not sold on the federal government's ability to get this right when the costs of living and doing business in San Francisco versus Pocatello, Idaho are so much different. The city-by-city model (state-by-state) seems a better and more Constitutional remedy. Although I am not sold on subsidizing folks to work at McDonald's when I wish the magic wand could be waved to make folks want to work at Brickfight's awesome and eclectic food truck where those workers will be more happier (maybe), learn a better skill and maybe wish to open their own small business.

[Mike E]

Right, you convinced me, let's have McDonalds continue to rake in massive profits while its employees apply for food stamps. It's their fault they're not successful, after all.

If "their employees" are 40 y/o's cleaning toilets, yes they will be on food stamps. 

 

And nobody has debunked the obvious problems associated with raising the MW. 

[EnsignExpendable]

If "their employees" are 40 y/o's cleaning toilets, yes they will be on food stamps. 

 

And nobody has debunked the obvious problems associated with raising the MW.

If their employees (I don't know why you put it in quotes, is McDonalds transferring to unpaid interns now?) are 20 year olds cleaning toilets, should they earn more money then? What goes age have to do with this?

Raising the minimum wage will have obvious problems? I'm no American historian, but I am almost positive that the US didn't collapse into economic ruin when the minimum wage went up from zero dollars an hour.

[LostCosmonaut]

 but I am almost positive that the US didn't collapse into economic ruin when the minimum wage went up from zero dollars an hour.

 

The first time they raised the minimum wage in the US,  620,000 people died.

[Donward]

That... IS... true.

Three years after creating the federal minimum wage, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

THANKS FDR!

[Mike E]

If their employees (I don't know why you put it in quotes, is McDonalds transferring to unpaid interns now?) are 20 year olds cleaning toilets, should they earn more money then? What goes age have to do with this?

Raising the minimum wage will have obvious problems? I'm no American historian, but I am almost positive that the US didn't collapse into economic ruin when the minimum wage went up from zero dollars an hour.

It was in quotes because you referenced "its employees" in your older comment. Age itself has little to do with it, outside of the fact that a 40 y/o should have a career by his/her age, and not be cleaning toilets at MikkyD's for his/her income. A 20 y/o that needs a quick job, sure. 

 

True, but when was the last time we lived in a semi-controlled bubble economy? Might as well say that because our economy has never collapsed on the basis of inflation, we should continue to inflate...and you still haven't actually responded to my claims. Raising the Minimum Wage to $15 is financially & economically unsustainable in the long term, much like our bubblenomics of today. 

[Meplat]

All a sanctioned raise to $15.00/hr does is make that fifteen bux worth whatever the minimum wage was before.

[Mike E]

All a sanctioned raise to $15.00/hr does is make that fifteen bux worth whatever the minimum wage was before.

I couldn't say that any better. 

[Sturgeon]

Here's another Devil's Advocate-y question for the pro crowd. If people who are lazy at work still deserve a living wage, why not just give everyone a living wage as a handout from the government, and let employers pay their employees what they want?

[Mike E]

If people who are lazy at work still deserve a living wage, why not just give everyone a living wage as a handout from the government, and let employers pay their employees what they want?

I'm hardly "pro" but that is a very interesting idea. In fact I have never actually heard it before. 

 

The problem is of course; where does the government get the money, which would have to come from taxes. 

[EnsignExpendable]

Here's another Devil's Advocate-y question for the pro crowd. If people who are lazy at work still deserve a living wage, why not just give everyone a living wage as a handout from the government, and let employers pay their employees what they want?

 

That sounds like an excellent plan. 

 

I'm hardly "pro" but that is a very interesting idea. In fact I have never actually heard it before. 

 

The problem is of course; where does the government get the money, which would have to come from taxes. 

 

Tax the corporations, problem solved.

[Meplat]

Here's another Devil's Advocate-y question for the pro crowd. If people who are lazy at work still deserve a living wage, why not just give everyone a living wage as a handout from the government, and let employers pay their employees what they want?

Someone did the math, and found that if a "freebie" education grant was cut ( I forget which), a shit-ton of people could get "free" (lol) money.

 

The U.S. Government basically hemmorages money.

[Sturgeon]

I'm hardly "pro" but that is a very interesting idea. In fact I have never actually heard it before. 

 

The problem is of course; where does the government get the money, which would have to come from taxes. 

 

Not my idea, TBH:

 

[Mike E]

And how do you expect corporations to pay...for everyone? This is the problem, that isn't enough. And having the large corporations pay tax to support people that don't directly support them in return, will simply push them out of the states. 

 

I think if there is one thing you can agree with, it is this; corporations are already trying to avoid taxes. 

[Priory_of_Sion]

And how do you expect corporations to pay...for everyone? This is the problem, that isn't enough. And having the large corporations pay tax to support people that don't directly support them in return, will simply push them out of the states. 

 

I think if there is one thing you can agree with, it is this; corporations are already trying to avoid taxes. 

From my understanding of things, US corporate profits are higher than ever even when adjusted for inflation. I think if corporations payed more into the system then you can give living wages to those adults living on minimum wage or something to that effect. 

 

The obvious solution is for the US to start annexing overseas tax havens. 

[EnsignExpendable]

And how do you expect corporations to pay...for everyone? This is the problem, that isn't enough. And having the large corporations pay tax to support people that don't directly support them in return, will simply push them out of the states. 

 

I think if there is one thing you can agree with, it is this; corporations are already trying to avoid taxes. 

 

Yeah, of course they are trying to avoid taxes. Avoiding taxes is profitable, corporations are meant for profit. Also you're right, not being in the US and being in a cheaper country is also profitable. That's called outsourcing, and everything that could be brought over already was. 

[Mike E]

From my understanding of things, US corporate profits are higher than ever even when adjusted for inflation. I think if corporations payed more into the system then you can give living wages to those adults living on minimum wage or something to that effect. 

 

The obvious solution is for the US to start annexing overseas tax havens. 

Doesn't mean they generate enough revenue to support the entire population; nor would they be willing to do so. 

 

We're talking about outsourcing en mass, even with government intervention. 

 

Not sure what you are trying to say with; "everything that could be brought over already was".

[Donward]

Let's be brutally honest here. The Minimum Wage debate is less about keeping people working at Walmart or McDonald's for $15 and more about fuck all corporations, isn't it? That and giving any government union employee an automatic pay increase because their contracts are based off of being a certain percentage above the minimum wage. It's just that the Minimum Wage proponents can't be honest with their actual goals of fucking over corporations which makes me respect them less.

 

Don't get me wrong. I hate most multinational corporations myself. And for half a groat, I'd raise the red flag of revolution up myself and line all their left-wing corporate boardmembers and political lackeys up against the wall myself were it not for the fact that I don't have enough ammo for them and for the religious fundamentalist preppers who'd try to waddle into the power vacuum as well.