The Plateau: Next Big Leaps in Small Arms Tech?

[Khand-e]

Yeah, pretty much what I said. The science exists, it just needs to be developed into something that can be made, and can be practical.

That's materials, and manufacturing. Those improvements will be developed on existing tech, long before it's tried out on pew-pew lazor stuff.

Will H&K be tasked by the world to do all the R&D?

And if so will my bandsaw gun I proposed earlier gain an extra 100% bonus to damage and accuracy to targets with H&K brand weapons?

[Toxn]

Image borked.

Do they have like, different image formats in SA or something?

It's because I'm lazy and don't shove everything through imgur first. 

 

 

No doubt some Zulu warriors cut the telegraph wires leading from Praetoria when Toxn submitted that post.

Hilariously, cable theft is a huge problem around these parts.

[Meplat]

Will H&K be tasked by the world to do all the R&D?

And if so will my bandsaw gun I proposed earlier gain an extra 100% bonus to damage and accuracy to targets with H&K brand weapons?

Diemaco will do all the work, H&K will sell it to Hollywood. Then some Russian tractor company will figure a way to make it for 1/4 the cost with twice the reliability, but it'll still have a couple annoying sharp edges.  Feinstein's pickled head will still hate it because it produces more thrusts per squeeze and has a shoulder thing that goes up.

[Toxn]

Yeah, pretty much what I said.  The science exists, it just needs to be developed into something that can be made, and can be practical.

That's materials, and manufacturing.  Those improvements will be developed on existing tech, long before it's tried out on pew-pew lazor stuff.

It's a materials/manufacturing issue in as much as everything is.

 

No amount of materials and manufacturing will allow you to make an electrolytic capacitor with the energy density of a cartridge. Supercapacitors might seem to fit the bill, but they currently have serious issues in terms of discharge time (read: they have decent energy density but terrible power density). The perfect solution would be something like an high-speed thermal battery - able to combine great power density and great energy density at the pull of a trigger. But at present we have nothing that looks even vaguely promising there.

 

This is a physics and chemistry issue, and won't be solved without a breakthrough in basic research.

[ShamefurDispray]

It's a materials/manufacturing issue in as much as everything is.

 

No amount of materials and manufacturing will allow you to make an electrolytic capacitor with the energy density of a cartridge. Supercapacitors might seem to fit the bill, but they currently have serious issues in terms of discharge time (read: they have decent energy density but terrible power density). The perfect solution would be something like an high-speed thermal battery - able to combine great power density and great energy density at the pull of a trigger. But at present we have nothing that looks even vaguely promising there.

 

This is a physics and chemistry issue, and won't be solved without a breakthrough in basic research.

A problem with energy density is in the stability of the capacitors themselves. Having extreme energy and power density are dangers themselves, like the stories in the news about exploding cellphone batteries.

 

It will be a quite a bit of time before EM weapons are practical enough for small arms because of the capacitors which need to be charged before every shot.

[Toxn]

The idea here would be to square the circle by eliminating the caps in favour of a one-use battery able to fire up and blow it's electrolytic load in a fraction of a second.

Which is presently impossible aside from a few gimmicky applications (non-nuclear emp pulse generation, for instance) but still a hell of a lot closer than a capacitor with the sort of energy and power density that you'd need to make these things really viable in small arms.

[Sturgeon]

The other thing is weight. That bank up there produces the same energy as a single round of 7.62x39, which weighs about 16.5 grams. Even if you got a 2KJ bank down to the same size, a rifle cartridge has a case made of thin, drawn metal surrounding very, very lightweight propellant. In contrast, a capacitor is made of layers of metal and is substantially more dense. So your capacitor technology would have to be off the wall for energy weapons to be even remotely competitive. Note thst we're not even talking about Star Wars blasters that go pew pew pew on a single bank, but a weapon that would be discharging, discarding, and loading capacitors just like a conventional firearm loads cartridges, or, at best, have a rotation of capacitors that are all being charged by equally magical batteries on their down time.

So there's a long, long way to go.

Now, in the spirit of this thread, I should probably say that I expect newer propellants, probably RDX-based, to eventually catch on, and this may come with a corresponding improvement in weapon energy that can handle very high pressures. I wouldn't be too surprised to see within 50 years a small arm routinely running 100KPSI+ pressure, although this would require a new primer configuration.

[Belesarius]

The other thing is weight. That bank up there produces the same energy as a single round of 7.62x39, which weighs about 16.5 grams. Even if you got a 2KJ bank down to the same size, a rifle cartridge has a case made of thin, drawn metal surrounding very, very lightweight propellant. In contrast, a capacitor is made of layers of metal and is substantially more dense. So your capacitor technology would have to be off the wall for energy weapons to be even remotely competitive. Note thst we're not even talking about Star Wars blasters that go pew pew pew on a single bank, but a weapon that would be discharging, discarding, and loading capacitors just like a conventional firearm loads cartridges, or, at best, have a rotation of capacitors that are all being charged by equally magical batteries on their down time.

So there's a long, long way to go.

Now, in the spirit of this thread, I should probably say that I expect newer propellants, probably RDX-based, to eventually catch on, and this may come with a corresponding improvement in weapon energy that can handle very high pressures. I wouldn't be too surprised to see within 50 years a small arm routinely running 100KPSI+ pressure, although this would require a new primer configuration.

Given some of the advances in metallurgy in the past 100 years, especially in some heavier weapons systems I'm surprised we haven't gone that way already. Higher chamber pressure, say for a HMG should have some interesting results.

[Meplat]

It's a materials/manufacturing issue in as much as everything is.

 

No amount of materials and manufacturing will allow you to make an electrolytic capacitor with the energy density of a cartridge. Supercapacitors might seem to fit the bill, but they currently have serious issues in terms of discharge time (read: they have decent energy density but terrible power density). The perfect solution would be something like an high-speed thermal battery - able to combine great power density and great energy density at the pull of a trigger. But at present we have nothing that looks even vaguely promising there.

 

This is a physics and chemistry issue, and won't be solved without a breakthrough in basic research.

You'll still need to come up with the materials and manufacturing processes to make said power source. Which will be seen in use in things before it's used in a weapon.

 

For all the advancements we've seen, firearms designers and makers are still (and likely will continue to be) very very conservative when it comes to materials and processes.

[Khand-e]

You'll still need to come up with the materials and manufacturing processes to make said power source. Which will be seen in use in things before it's used in a weapon.

 

For all the advancements we've seen, firearms designers and makers are still (and likely will continue to be) very very conservative when it comes to materials and processes.

 

Is Krupp Steel a possible super material for said weapons?

[Meplat]

Is Krupp Steel a possible super material for said weapons?

Not sure if Thyssen-Krupp is even making "Kruppstahl" anymore.

Anyhow, maybe if they need some really overpriced roll pins or small screws..

[Priory_of_Sion]

Not sure if Thyssen-Krupp is even making "Kruppstahl" anymore.

Anyhow, maybe if they need some really overpriced roll pins or small screws..

Thyssen-Krupp does make really crappy elevators. 

[CrashbotUS]

Thyssen-Krupp does make really crappy elevators. 

 

I can confirm this. They are at my office at least 3 times a month.  Being stuck in the elevator is not my idea of fun, so I take the stairs.

Programmable ammunition and integrated electronics. 

[Alex C.]

Is it likely that advancements in body armor could outpace small arms development? Because I want a Holtzman shield from Dune.

 

Seriously though, advancements in armor have thrown humanity for a loop several times in history.

[Donward]

There's always a better can opener being made.

 

Speaking of which, maybe an advancement will be better drone killing hardware for the individual soldier/squad what with the proliferation of the things on the battlefield.

[Sturgeon]

Is it likely that advancements in body armor could outpace small arms development? Because I want a Holtzman shield from Dune.

 

Seriously though, advancements in armor have thrown humanity for a loop several times in history.

 

I'd argue that's the next big challenge. Currently, the US has never fought another country using peer body armor; it's too expensive for anyone but superpowers to use (a very comparable situation to Ancient Rome, and legionnaires' plate, in fact). What if we do? In that case, 5.56mm, 7.62mm, our whole suite of small arms ammunition below .50 cal is basically useless.

Does that imply everyone running around with M82s? No, maybe not, but it might mean that small arms ammunition could go either bigger (to penetrate the armor) or smaller (because it's hopeless unless you bypass the armor anyway, and you can only do that accurately at close range), or it could even change the structure of infantry. As an example: Armor is expensive, but it protects the even more expensive soldier. Because of this, there are fewer losses, meaning more money can be safely invested in each soldier. Soldiers become more and more SF-like and fewer and fewer in number, and their marksmanship skills are needed to bypass the armor of enemies clad in similar plates, or to defeat them with armor piercing weapons (GLs, etc). These fewer infantry are supported by increasing numbers of equally-expensive, but effective drones than protect and supply them.

Just an idea, but we could see changes of that kind of magnitude due to body armor.

[D.E. Watters]

If personal armor becomes a game changer, I suspect we'd see a greater use of HE and incendiary launchers.  If we can no longer kill you with single projectiles, we'll shred your unprotected bits with fragments, set you on fire, and stomp you with overpressure.

[CrashbotUS]

While I tend to agree with this to a point, you still end up back in the same dilemma we have faced for the past several thousand years.  Weight.

[Sturgeon]

Right, that's what makes it interesting.

[Khand-e]

Figure it's worth mentioning that things like DBP-10 can already defeat a Level IIIA vest with high quality Level III trauma plate inserts at 300m, and ceramic Level IV, while certainly able to stop most steel cored rounds do break faster then I'd hope in a battlefield setting.

 

......Krupp Steel plates made of small screws are the answer clearly.

[Donward]

The Kruppstahlian Space Valkries took their technology back to their home world before Hitler could negotiate a treaty with them for the betterment of mankind.

THANKS ROOSEVELT!

[Khand-e]

Also, on everything below .50 BMG being useless against level IV plating, I don't quite think that's true, I'd be willing to bet that M993 and possibly M995 could defeat level IV plating, the problem there is, then there's a question of "what actually costs more? ceramic/composite reinforced plates, or tungsten alloy cored AP rounds being used at a massive scale on the assumption everyone has Level IV plates?"

[Collimatrix]

There are considerably more energetic propellants than nitrocellulose that could be used.  I assume that either barrel materials or the speed of sound in the propellant gasses precludes their use.

[Sturgeon]

Also, on everything below .50 BMG being useless against level IV plating, I don't quite think that's true, I'd be willing to bet that M993 and possibly M995 could defeat level IV plating, the problem there is, then there's a question of "what actually costs more? ceramic/composite reinforced plates, or tungsten alloy cored AP rounds being used at a massive scale on the assumption everyone has Level IV plates?"

 

Those can definitely pen hard plates, but they're so freaking expensive and the materials they use are so limited that they're a non-option for anyone but SF.

But Nammo's got sintered tungsten penetrators, so that may not be as true for long.

All in all, good point Khand, and it's something I missed talking about.

[Sturgeon]

There are considerably more energetic propellants than nitrocellulose that could be used.  I assume that either barrel materials or the speed of sound in the propellant gasses precludes their use.

 

I believe the final G11 caseless configuration basically uses a block of RDX. And I believe it, too, since that cartridge produces 5.45x39 levels of performance with a smaller diameter bore and less than 28 grains of propellant, and it's telescoped (which results in substantial propellant waste).