Militarysta

Making it very very (to!) simple - yes. But whole think is mucht complicated - having some budget and 248 Leo-2 Poland will try to build it's own system of suply chain for Leopard 2. In theory mones for 2PL will be enought to replace main armour and improve suspension - even whit changing suspension points in hull lower part. But including buliding domestic poland abilities to service and suplly chain for polish leopard 2 - there was not enought money to support sevral military industry factories and replaced main armour in 2PL.

under 60,5t combat weight so ammo, crew, fuel itp About armour: AMAP is very very good, as I wrote - the problem is "weak" (vs KE) old main armour 2A4. AMAP is of course not wundersondenpanzerung mady by elfs - it typical multi layered NxRA armour and thin ceramis-steel to protect NxRA again small arms and spalls fire. And it's seems to be indeed better solutions then "wedge" NERA armour from Leopard 2A5. Polish reqirments for 2PL where simple - stop Cornet and 3BM59/60. As I know nobody is anoying about first (CE) protection ;-) The problem is whit KE couse to weak (circa 350mm RHA) old main armour -and of course AMAP will not double this protection couse it's to light armour. But definetly 2PL is higly resistant vs old Mango, Vant, and old Swieniec - so AMAP give a lot but propably not enought against 3BM59/60 on typical Polisg fight distance (800m) whit old main armour.

You are writing my claim about "weak" M829 or mythical polish-US test in 1999? In case some strange test - after polish join NATO in 1999 there were a lot of tests betwen RFN, GB and US and Poland -mostly in case equipment. Polish ERA vs germans Pz-3T and IT300, American MLRS + Ah-64A vs polish mod GECKO (while Victore Strike ind Drawko in 2001 polish Sa-8 anihilated whole Ah-64A regiment despite it was supported by MLRS) and other stuff. And in case half-mythical PT-91 vs M829 - I have heard it twice from two diffrent retired polish army offciers. In they claimed PT-91 whit aditional "mobilisation" 40mm HHS plate on hull frotn + ERAWA was shoot by 5x M829 whit no penetration and 1x M829A1 whit penetrtion. Of course I han't any hard proof (in sources) so for my it's half-mythical. BUT Knowing what was tested in 1999-2003 in Poland after joined NATO I can belive that sucht test was really possible, couse other strange tests are confirmed in "hard" sources.

And M829 was rather weak APFSDS-T.

Well hard to wirte for patryotism resons but indeed - polish made T-72M1 alway was theriblle quality. Polish Army in 80's had the same problem - soviet made T-72M1 was quite OK, polish ones - Jusus fuckin Christ! - like in pdf linked in my previous post. All is depend on non-existinq quality controll in Bumar-Labędy. And big hurry whit running up T-72M1 production in Poland. BTW - funny quiz for you guys - how many producktion lines T-72M1 was in socjalyst Poland? And which components where banned by Soviets for productioon in Poland?

No, they are correct. Dimensions for 30. degree for T-72M1 are checkt in 3 diffrent blueprints - Polish, russian and one other country-manufacurer. All 530-540mm LOS for 30.degre whit exatly those values.

Ho ho ho Merry x-mas T-72M1 durability and relability All based on "CONSIDERATION OF WEAPON SYSTEMS AVAILABILITY IN EARLY OPERATION PhASE" Translate: PT-91 Twardy tank, during 3 yers and 2 months for 144 tanks. During trials period (1174 days) we had 510 PT-91 falitures whit avarage time to repair 27 days. Avarage faliture ratio was 3 per tank but during trials it was between 1 to 14 for eacht tank. Important: falitures under factory warranty was in number ca 364 so up to 71%. All was procedure due to factory production. Translation from english for normal users here: up to 71% falitures was cased by non-existin quality control in Bumar-łabędy and fucked up production process. Summary in one table: And compare old Leopard 2A4 and PT-91: (black - Leopard2A4 white - PT-91)

x2 BTW - Leopard 2 was developed whit some "german specyfic" too - armour was only "addon" to whole rest and prioryty was firepower, mobility and relability. After IIWW trauma when Panthers and Tigers where mostly in repairs then on battlefields there was the same story since Leopard 1 - tank must be on battlefield not in garage during reperation and mobility and firepower haveprioryty then armour. And Leopard 2 would be mucht more sophisticated but US trials had shown that Leopard 2AV even castrated from autoloader, APU, better FCS etc outperform XM1 in this case. And finnaly we had Leopard 2A0-2A3 whit working FCS, whit panoramic comander sight, whit 120mm and whit gorgous mobility and relabity. And really easy to use and repair. Polish army have very very good compare between T-72M1 so pure low-cost soviet tank, PT-91M/MZ so deep modernisation whit western FCS, western stabilisation, turet ring, transmision, thermal cameras etc and...25 yers old leopard 2A4. And what? And this "old" Leo-2A4 outperform not even T-72M1 but mostly PT-91MZ (Pandakar) tank in olmoust all aspects -including fire power, not even mentioned about durbility and relability. And thats the reason why Bumar łabedy had butthurt and had tryied (sucesfully...) block any take nex Leo-2 batch between 2003-2012...They "new" child whit mostly western components suck in compare to old 2A4. Ironiccly not in armour area but in all others aspects importatnt for tankers. In some way taken in 2002 Leopard 2A4 for Germans had killed Bumar-Łabedy and PT-91. But MoD and Army didn't do anything between 2003-2012 not take next Leo-2 batch (and Germans had offered circa 500 tanks) nor developed and buy nex PT-91 or modernisated T-72M1/PT-91 to "Pendakar" level. Of course Iraq and A-stan mission, and cirisis in 2008 hurt a lot armu budget but whole problem is mucht deeper - pepole rosponsible for army modernisaton did nothing in those times... :-/ Only thanks to two Generals Polish Army had taken germans 2A5 - it was small miracle in polish shitholle named moD, and lucky shoot. But whole rest had problems - including Leopar' s 2A4 couse lack of spare parts and looooooooong procedure to choose who (KMW, RHM or Aselan lol) will modernisated polish leo-2A4. This procedure had taken from 2012 to...december 2015. So proud of my MoD... :/ And form limited budget army choose Rheinmetall and..choose wrong in some way Long story.

As I said - old Leopard 2A4 have better armour in case vs CE - while T-72M1 is circa 500-550mm then in Leopard 2A4 is 700-750mm+. It's big difrence. From the other side - Leopard 2A4 have weaker armour vs KE. Against older Soviet ammo (3BM9, 3BM15, 3BM22) it's 400mm+ but against longer rods (M111, DM23 etc) its "only" circa 330mm RHA. In this scenario, ironnicly T-72M1 have advantage over Leopard 2A4. And unfortunatly PT-91 whit ERAWA 2 (on test better then Knive/Nozh ERA) is better armoured then basic Leopard 2A4. And again -in all other aspects Leopard 2 outperform PT-91. And I will repet again - almoust all informations about problems whit Leopard 2PL or doubfull balistic test are rumors from OBRUM and HSW factories - co competitors of Bumar - Łabędy SA. Polish Rheinmettal of course doesen't coment, WITU too. There are some rumors from army side but they are rather suport IBD/Rheinemttal then blame them. And all is theory OPSPEC so I would be very cerfull whit some "hard" statsments. Some rumors from MSPO'2018 are not trusted sources! Nope. And 390-400mm vs KE value is for 30 degree for longitiudal axis. So 530mm LOS. For 650-950mm it's 480-700(!)mm RHA. Thats reson why polish PT-91 was able to windstand DM33A1 and other mucht never APFSDS during trials for Peru They are some rumors that old PT-91 whit aditional 40mm plates windstand in 1999/2000 trials in Poland while M1 shoot 5x M829 in hull frotn :-) Back to the reality: Oh this in minnor problem - we can talk about "brilant" M1 and M1IP FCS lack PERI analogue, AGT1500 durability and fuel compsumption, to weak 105mm gun etc. In fact M1 have only onne god think - armour integrity and vs. CE protection. And really good protected tank was diffrent - Ob.219AS whit 4s22. Well -weight limits in Leopard 2A4 are unclear. They are obvious limits for suspension (60,5t), but they are questionable abilities to overcome this level. Acoding to people from polish industry they are neccesery "major changes" in "hull structure". Some peoples had said that means only suspenson anchor point (mounted points?) other said that it's indeed need diffrent bottom-hull sides plates. As I know Polish MOD had decide to choose Rhainmettal packed couse weigh limit related in limited budget. There was not enought money to improved chull suspension to overcome 60,5 tons limit. It's estimated cost for tank it's rebuild in Lima and modernisation + trening + ammo + spare parts. If this value it's true it's mean really good price. But I dont belive that M1A1PL will become real. Despite fact that is a good tank all factor supports buy new Leopard 2A7 for Polish Army. Exept one - this goverment present now in my country (PiS - Law and Justice party) is totally brownnose in relatio to USA and it's dislike EU structures including western industry. So all resonable arguments support buying nex Leopard 2 batch but polish goverment is not resonable ...

@UP no, definetly not - late 2A4 haven't this problem as I know, but still suspension limited weight to circa 60,5t. The next problem that not exatly all Loeben users can had problem whit "old" 2A4 chassis - many depend on how is used tanks. And this polish ones have hard life couse they are used a lot - sevral are send to Germany between 2006-2015 to welded again the bottol of the hull sides couse it was cracing - but it's mostly cased by stupid-estern cowboys jumping whole tank style. But there where some problems whit cracking - old hulls, "tired", used a lot. And now whole problem blow up during Leopard 2PL program - weight limits, $ limits, etc. Intresting case are Indonesian and Singapour tanks - maybe they armour is mucht lighter then we think or they have upgreaded suspension. Or finall user doesnt care about microcracking chassis mounts. No idea. Oh, the last but not least - almoust all informations about problems whit Leopard 2PL or doubfull balistic test are rumors from OBRUM and HSW factories - co competitors of Bumar - Łabędy SA. Polish Rheinmettal of course doesen't coment, WITU too. There are some rumors from army side but they are rather suport IBD/Rheinemttal then blame them. And all is theory OPSPEC so I would be very cerfull whit some "hard" statsments.

K-2 is not possible IMHO in polish condition. One factory in Poland want to have cooperation whit South Korea and K2 but it's only marketing proposition. This factory (Cegielski) haven't know-how, politican support, MoD offciall support etc. IMHO no chance to real K-2 in Poland. Not whit this goverment and MoD. Seriously doubt. So despite the fact that K-2 is very good tank - not this time. And brown nose MoD want any possible weapons system from USA so, despite Leopard 2 in Poland, M1A1PL have some chanses to become real. And it's very good tank too -depiste 40% bigger LCC then Leopard's 2 and...lack panoramic thermal viewer for Tc in most verison. And M1A2 will be to expensive for my country.

Well sometimes knowledge in silver but shut the fuck up is pure gold. That what I think about those on AW forum. Point by point: Yes, mostly true. PT-91M/M1 have better vs KE armour then Leopard 2A4 and as base armour - mucht more weaker then L2A4 against HEAT. But PT-91M/M1 whit ERAWA-2 is mucht better protected then Leopard 2A4. Sad, but it's fact. But from the other hand - Leopard 2A4 outdated PT-91 in all other aspects and tank crews don't event want to lisen about T-72M1/PT-91/Pendakar tank. They just want's Leo-2. yes, it's true in case old 2A4. No, not true. AMAP-B is OK, "base armour" in Leopard 2A4 is shit -that's the problem. Whole protection accoding to polish PGZ shoud be "over 2A5 level" but on test WITU dicover that is not even on this level. Rest is classify but definetly AMAP-B is not problem...in relatio to weight is very good. Part of polish MoD is working on G2G whit USA about take 300-400 M1A1 and upgrade it in Lima. Estimated cost is ~3bln $ It's forced against polish industry (PGZ want's to deal whit Germans or mod.PT-91M) or Army (they want Leopard 2 tanks). It's just slowly doing by last year - IMHO chance are 50/50 couse nobody (despite part od MoD) want's M1A1PL in Poland.

Link please. EDIT I got it.

May be usefull: English version FragOut! whit my article Javelin vs Spike: https://fragout.uberflip.com/i/1064315-frag-out-magazine-22/0? page 48.

Mostly like Valyron said - in polish terrain condition and whit polish army structure - Spike is mucht better.

I will - Polish industry is sick. If somebody had claimed that Revolution AMAP armour + old special armour will give values beyond 2A5 and on par whit 2A7 but the same person/instytute haven't idea that armour pacage B and D is competly diffrent and in polish 2A4 is "B" it's mean that somebody shoud be layoff... :/

Thanks. To be honest I had mucht more but all in polish and mostly in paper: Publication lists for sucht instytution: General Tadeusz Kościuszko  Military University of Land Forces

Polish FragOut! edition whit my article about Javelin vs Spike (page 52) https://fragout.uberflip.com/i/1055276-frag-out-magazine-22-pl/0? In polish but it may be intresting for users here. Whole is based on Javelin and Spike test in Poland - both system are offered in "Pustelnik" program for new "light" ATGM for WOT forces and for Army.

Well 2PL modernisation is in progres. Despite fact that polish industry had obvious problem whit absorb german know-how in some areas (and PCO thermal camras factory is "stuck") there are some serious doubts about some Rheinmettal components for 2PL when 2PL faild some tests in Poland. Unfortunatly polish army had more problems then tanks - decapitated HQ by political cleansing, completly stupid military movment to estern border, creating new forces (terytorial forces -wanabe comando seal spetznaz killer ASGay), dying naval, only very small number operational F-16 and junky MiG-29 and Su-22 whit seriously safety incidents (toxis air conditionig in pilot mask, not working K36 etc). More or less polish army is fucked mostly by politicians who are trying to incarase PA numbers but whit constans $ level - ok it's 1,98-2% GDP but whole Poland made GDP like circa germans Bavaria Land... Tank, firearms, ATGMS etc are less important then whole system, and this in Poland have cancer :/ - mostly by political manual steereing by completly idiots who firstly where afraid about "army loyalyty" in relatio to new "Law and Justice" (PiS) goverment in Poland (since 2015), so they just decapitayted HQ by retired ca 70% generlas and then they had started to manually reform Polis Army and military industry. What is completly faild in both aspects. One very simple example - in Poland where 34 Arm. Tk. Bde on Leopard 2A5 tanks in Żagań City (western border - close to L2A5 rebuild base in Poznań City and whit big trening ground whit modern trening center). All in one place whit 15 miles near 10 Tk Bde (On. 2A4 Leopards). Two batalion in 34 bde, all after OPEVAL and certificated in NATO. New MOD and PM in 2015 had decide that "estern border is not protect against Russian attack" and they had decide to move whole brigade to Warshaw (where was in deep reserve 1 Tk Bde) . In Warshaw (Wesoła city) ther is no infrastructure, nor trening ground for more then one regiment. And teh put whole Tk. Bde... And of course it's not just "moving" but forming 1 Warsaw Tk Bde on new tanks. The result is dismount 34 Tk. Bde and 1 Tk Bde is not forming on Leo2A5 still. Maybe in 2020 tehy will be redy for opeval. But im doubt. Of course the whole general staff protested so Law and Justice MOD just retired whole general staff... And this is only one SMALL example of how fucked is polish army now. Other example - Polish PGZ military industry - since 2015 the had five diffrent GM and CEO and whole upper menagment where changed six time in complete personal composition! During only 3 years!. And of course - those all GM's and CEOs and managment where not experts - they just Law and Justice party members or brown nose close to the Kaczyński (Law and Justice chief) or MOD or PM. Really whe have here more seriously problems then only Leopard 2A4... :/

Wonderfull photos of polish "golden autumn" and tanks from 10 Tk Bde by press 11 "Lubuska" Armoured Division. Photos made by Senior Staff Warrant Officer Rafał Mniedło:

I don't see pictures. Generally I can't see ictures hosted there -what's the reson?

My translation of the first sentense from the middle paragraph for nromal language for users here: "Was developed and manufacured full welding aluminia line, was bought CNC center, it was preapared full equipment for Hitfist 30P production line."

Yes, many t(h)anks! - Those are this old photos from NowaTechnika Wojskowa Magazine. The turret zitadele is welded in Poland i ZM Bumar Łabędy. Whit Al alloys. For me is unkown source of Al plates, but there are welded in ZM BŁ.

Nope :-) Hitfist 30P is made of aluminum and welding is in Poland. In NTW where photos from Bumar factory from welding turret. I had posted them on DFI many years ago. If I found them I will post it here.

No idea, most of them are taken from Bauman book (2006 Moscow) and they are put ther based on "unkown" criteria. Thats the problem whit, in theory realible sources. Whit polish WITU is the same - sometimes they put something shamefully mistaken but generally it's good source.