U-47

16 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

More of Turkish Leo2s in Syria

And then I found this is from "Turkish SAS", what an "SAS"......

I have a question: My friend and I searched all the videos of Mig29K( the current one, not the old 1980s one)'s take off, but we never saw the carrier (no matter Kuznetsov or INS Vikramaditya) rasied its jet blast deflector, why?

1 hour ago, Lightning said:

617厂内的大佬吗？

炮霸，虽然其实他不是该厂的，但是在这个实验场拍了些照片，不过禁止外传（类似的还有些实验装备）。所以实际上我能发的也只有网上已经公开的照片（大多来源于杜老，我想你也了解）。

5 hours ago, Levi said:

Thanks for your answers and new photos, which are great, just as always. As for the T-72-ish vehicle in the backyard, it's an interesting one indeed. But I don't think it's Russian made. Judging by the splash guard and overall shape of the upper glacis plate, I'd say it is WZ123 based.

Also, going back to BK1871 you have mentioned earlier. I have only two pics of it (I think someone might have already posted them here)


Do you have any extra info? Actual vehicle seems to have T-72M turret, but judging by the schematic, something else was originally intended, different from both T-72 and later Type 90-II developments.

I asked my friend about the chassis which looks like T-72/WZ123, the plant's source says it is a WZ123's prototype, and it has been restored for other test purpose in the recent time.

Also by plant source, the T-72 in the background is a T-72M (not T-72M1), and he send me a close photo of it (and some photo of other tanks here), but I'm sorry, I am forbidden to share these photos.

14 minutes ago, Levi said:

Do you have any extra info? Actual vehicle seems to have T-72M turret, but judging by the schematic, something else was originally intended, different from both T-72 and later Type 90-II developments.

No, I don't have any more photos of BK1871.

According to WZ123's deputy chief designer's memoir: BK1871 is a test bed for western engine pack, specificlly British CV12 engine + German LSG3000 transmission. It's also a early stage/prototype of 90-II.

That's all the info I know about BK1871. It looks like a T72 chassis + western engine pack to me, but it's just a guess.

2 more new photos from plant's testing ground:

this "T-72" is interesting, it looks like some kind of T-72's hull + Type80's roadwheels. Levi, do you have any idea what it might be if it is still a Russian made tank?

On 2017/3/3 at 4:26 PM, Levi said:

 

By the way, Type85-III's 1000hp engine pack from Yugoslavia:

WZ122-4's engine pack's running test in March 1979 before it been installed to the tank ( MTU8V331TC41 engine + Chinese hydraulic transmission ):

WZ122-6 &WZ122-6F2 's Chinese automatic transmission:

WZ122-6's 8V165 engine:

1 hour ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

 

No, but the HVAP round became very common for the M1A1/A2 guns.   There was a HVAP round that went into testing for the M3 75mm, but the M1 gun programs looked more promising and the ended the program.  

Roger, thank you for the info.

Did M4's 75mm M3 and 76mm M1 gun has any new AP (or HEAT) round after WWII ?

On 2017/3/3 at 4:26 PM, Levi said:

New questions (since you have mentioned BK1850). What are the recognition points of WZ1224/BK1850? I have gathered that one of them had rectangular exhaust tubes, while the other - round ones, but which is which? What was the purpose of BK1850? What kind of engine did it have? And snce we have touched this, what kind of engine did WZ1224 have? Was it the same as WZ1226 or something different?

And for your other questions before:

WZ1224 uses [ imported MTU 8V331TC41 engine ( yes, the civil engine, according to MTU it's a 748hp engine) + Chinese hydraulic transmission ( learned from M46 captured in Korean war and M48 captured in Vietnam war) ] power pack ( the first Chinese power pack),

WZ1226 uses 8V165 engine ( 960hp, the Chinese tank engine version of MTU8V331 which failed as I said before) of Changchun plant, WZ1226F2 uses 12V150 engine ( some said it is 12150L, which means V-2-54's copy, maybe with some improvements. If 12150L is ture, then this is obviously a very reliable backup choice) of Datong plant, and they both use Chinese automatic transmission ( no detail info).

After WZ1224 became BK1850 it uses [ British CV12 engine (1200hp) + western transmission ( either be British TN12 or French ENC200, nobody said which one exactly) ] power pack, in order to install this bigger pack, it cut out the rear hull and welded a new one.

WZ1224:

WZ1224's engine:

WZ1224 installed 2 extra cooling fan later when we found its original cooling system is not strong enough, like this:

Then installed western power pack and became BK1850:

I think the difference of its rear part is clear visible:

1, the shape of exhaust hole: in WZ1224 it is square, in BK1850 it is round.
2, the shape ( size) of the engine part: in WZ1224 it is trapezoid and havn't cover the whole width above the track, in BK1850 it is square and covered the whole width above the track.

(maybe you can find more difference)

I'll post more photos of WZ1226 and 1226F2's engines later.

55 minutes ago, Levi said:

3. What about it's power output? Was it the same or did it grow over time? Engine compartment of 96A seems to be larger than of previous models (most likely because of larger radiator), could it be related to the power increase? Some sources claim 96A to have 1000hp engine.

3a. Could it actually be that the tank from the museum (the one that stands between WZ111 and Type 69) is actually "68 revolution"? It is a 59/69 model with turbocharged V-2 after all.

4. Photos 1 and 2 show the same engine, photo 3 is a V-2 version above Type96A. Engine from the first two pictures I have already seen before:
Just haven't paid enough attention to the photo because of the overall informational "static" around the subject (too much irrelevant information out there). But since it is the same engine, Zhu Yusheng stands next to, it must be 99s 150HB indeed. And yes, it does look like neither MTU, nor CV12 or V-2. Seems to be original indeed.

3,

Type 80/88/96 uses 120V150ZLC engine, 730HP, I have showed its detail info before;

Type 96A (the 2014 Russian tank game ) uses 12V150ZLD, 800hp, it's a improved 120V150ZLC;

Type 96A1 (the 2015 Russian tank game ) uses a improved 12V150ZLD, still 800hp, no other info;

Type 96B (the 2016 Russian tank game ) uses a complete new 8V150 engine based on 99A's 1500hp 12V150 engine (only know their name are "new 150HB series", and installed on new SPG/ZTD-05 ,etc, no other info), 1000hp.

3a, I thought it before, but unlikely, because it uses a 1-piece cast turret, yet WZ123's deputy chief designer said first Chinese 1-piece cast turret is 1972's WZ122's turret, and "68 revolution" is built in 1968, so, a 1968 tank shouldn't have a 1-piece cast turret. Yet, the museum made a lot of "A's turret + B's hull" hybrid tank (like WZ1223 turret + Type80's hull, or WZ123's turret + Storm's hull which you mentioned before ), so maybe this type 59's hull it is "68 revolution", just has a turret from somewhere else.

3 minutes ago, Lightning said:

AFAIK,we also have made a six barrels version called 676..

哎，哪一方面军的？

2 hours ago, Khand-e said:

 

It's a export only stuff based on AK176 ( simplify AK176 to lose some weight and voloum so it can be installed on a truck), as far as I know, PLA army has no interest in it at all, so of course no military designation.

According to the intervies to its designer, this project started in 2012, it uses AHEAD and laser guided round, no any kind of AP round, that's all I know about it.

BTW, PLA Navy is interest in a quadruple AK176 as a super CIWS, I mean this is not a joke, they are serious on it.

On 2017/3/3 at 4:26 PM, Levi said:

What kind of engines did earlier Type 99 variants had I have no idea. Many sources refer to it as "150HB" while also claiming MTU connection, but I have seen neither any photos, nor any other kind of additional detail. 12V150ZL (as well as all of it's predecessors) was clearly based on V-2-54, but whether new engine was it's knock off, or an entirely new design, it's unclear.
By the way, you have mentioned "Type 99 - 2004 type", did you mean the version that also had a welded turret? I am asking because it was only spotted in 2006 if I remember correctly, so this may be a valuable clarification.
 

Thanks for all of the info.

Type 85-IIA was according to several sources a version of 85-II (with L7 and simplified engine and transmission) that Pakistan was initially going to order, before switching to 85-IIM/85-IIAP.

I have only heared about 85-III's engine as having eastern european origins, Poland was my own assumption, do not mind it.

What about Type 96 engines? 96A is equipped with 12V150ZL, right?

Can't point to the source of Type 99 prototype photos unfortunately. I have those for a rather long time already. I once used to make a lot of searches in baidu with several specific queries such as "prototype" or "test vehicle". Likely there was not much additional info, on the site whewe it came from.

New questions (since you have mentioned BK1850). What are the recognition points of WZ1224/BK1850? I have gathered that one of them had rectangular exhaust tubes, while the other - round ones, but which is which? What was the purpose of BK1850? What kind of engine did it have? And snce we have touched this, what kind of engine did WZ1224 have? Was it the same as WZ1226 or something different?

1, like I said before, though we did try to make a tank engine based on MTU in 1978, but it failed. So maybe Type99 tank's engine still has some German tech, but that's not the major part.

2, in 1990s, a lot of Chinese  military fans worship German tech (even still today), so they hope our engine is also made by German tech, that's why the "99 engine is copyed from MTU" rumor keeps spreading.

3, 120V150ZLC engine (type 80/88/96, 730hp, also called as "730" by our old tank enginers and designers) is basicly a turbocharged V-2-54, here are 2 early photos of it:

prototype engine under test:

test tank ( looks like a Type69, maybe "68 revolution", according to WZ123's deputy chief designer's memoir, "68 revolution" is the frist test bed for 730 engine, it's a tank designed by a worker, yes, worker, not tank enginer, basicly a ordinary type 59/69 with some improvements, no detail info or photo ) with prototype engine under test:

4, Type99 (before 99A)'s engine is C12V150ZAL (1200hp, or 150HB), like I said before, it is basicly a new engine (with some tech from British CV12 much more than German MTU), and that's also why it's so unreliable for a very long time (unlike Type80/88's 730 engine based on V-2). Here are some photos of it:

.

(the photo above could either be 150X or 150HB, I'm not sure, sorry, I'm not good at engine. BTW, in case you don't know, 150X is another engine designed for WZ123, like F100/F110 for F-15/F-16 , but it's canceled before completed)

I have to work now, I'll answer your rest questions later.

4 hours ago, Levi said:

Didn't see this one before, hence many thanks!
So now, as we now have seen the vehicle's engine compartment, I assume it was to be powered by the same engine the final Type 99 version ended up with, wasn't it? Is it actually based on MTU MB 873 design as many articles suggest, or is it just a rumor?

It's a rumor, but comes with good reason, because we do imported 10 sets of MTU 8V331TC41 engine ( Leopard 2's MTU873's civil use version) in 1978, what we wanted is to make a tank engine version of it, for our future tank (at that time's future tank).

The question is, the 960hp 8V165 ( V-8, cylinder diameter=165mm, which means 120hp per cylinder) prototype engine based on MTU failed in test again and again, the reason is simply: we don't have that level of technology in early 1980s, and Germans refuse to give us any help when we asked, so this engine had no way to go but died.

After it failed, in 1981, we decided to devlop a new 1000hp 12V150 engine (and we hope we can improve it to 1200hp later) , which means 83hp per cylinder, so it's more easier to made than the 8V165. With the help from CV12 ( Challenger tank's 1200hp engine, we imported from British in 1985 and made a lot of live test on BK1850~BK1871, and obviously our technology level was better in 1985 than 8V165's 1978 ) and western experts ( I know they helped, but I don't know how much ),  this one is at least more reliable and been installed to WZ123's prototype. It was declare success in 1998, here, I don't know if it achieved 1000hp in 1998 or before 1998, anyway this is 9910's engine. And Type99 (the 2004 type) installed its 1200hp version.

So basicly this engine is a Chinese one with some technology from British more than German.

Type99A has a new engine, it is said it's a whole new engine developed all by ourself, but I don't know its detail.

4 hours ago, Levi said:

-What were the factory codes for Type 80 and Type 85 family vehicles? Not all of them were developed out of factory's own initiative.
-What is the difference between Type 85-II and Type 85-IIA? Was Type 85-IIA ever made? I have seen no photos.
-What engine and transmission did Type 85-III have? Some sources claim it was equipped with 1000hp V-2 derivative and BKPs. If yes, then are we to assume these originated from Poland?
-Can you give a rundown of Chinese V-2 derivatives and transmissions Type 80 and 85 tanks had?

I don't know the whole codes for Type80 and Type85 family, I only know Type85-II AP's code is BK1055, and Type90-II is BK1062. And there is another interesting thing, somehow Plant 617 has a T-72 upgrade plan called BK1041, no detail info.

I never heard Type85-IIA, I don't think it has been built.

Type85-III's 1000hp engine pack comes from Yugoslavia, I never heard anything about we work with Poland on any tank.

Type80's engine: Max 730HP at 2000 r/min, fuel cost 237~313L/100km ( type59 is 180~190L/100km in the same file, doesn't mention if it is on road or in the field, maybe the lower one is on road and the higher one is in the field), lubricant cost 8.5~10.3L/100km (type59 is 6~8).

Type80: Max speed 57km/h (type59/69/79 is 50km/h in the same file), average speed on road is 35~40km/h (type59 is 30~33, type69/79 is 32~35).

I think the Type80 with D10T gun is a early prototype.

I don't know where you find this early Type99's picture, but that's nice, I never saw this photo before.

I have to sleep now, it's 01:31 here already.

On 2017/2/25 at 4:58 PM, Levi said:

By the way, speaking of WZ123. The most interesting (to me) version of it was the one you were talking about - "would be type 93 or 94". Here it is I assume:

How much information about this vehicle is there?

Not much, I know sth about what we have in that era ( specific armour and weapon performance, but it is still classified info, so I can't told you the detail, what I can share is in 1989, the lowest Chinese composite armour is a copy of early T72's UFP armour, 200mm at 22  degree, which resist 320mm VS AP and 425mm VS HEAT; the best one is also 200mm/22 degree, which can resist 400mm+ VS AP and 600mm+ VS HEAT. So we may assume that's what the first prototype has ), but not WZ123's original design's detail info.

All I have about it, is another photo of its early model, this is declassified:

Chinese carrier's research land-model is under reconstruction, it shows Carrier 002's current design:

Meanwhile, Type 055 destroyer's research land-model:

1 hour ago, Levi said:

I always thought that T-80U deal was official. There were no such tanks in districts bordering China, so this could not have been done without government's consent. Probably they hoped to sell it, probably it was done in exchange for some other favor. But it was already in 90s. WZ-123 program was based on T-72, and as far as I know, it started before 90s (correct me if I am wrong here). That's why I thought that getting hands on T-72B in 90s would have been insignifficant.

My identification of this T-72 as T-72M1 (and not T-72M) was not just a product of deduction - features of "Dolly Parton" turret (specific to T-72A and T-72M1) are clearly apparent. It is distinctively different from both full cast turret of T-72 and T-72M, and "Super Dolly Parton" of T-72B. This is interesting because it could not have been the tank from Romania - there were only T-72Ms there. It seems that China was collecting Russian tanks from different sources at some point.

Yes, WZ123 started in 1980s.

But T-80U's superior armour and M1A1HA's slaughter on T72s in 1991 shocked PLA, that makes PLA believe WZ123's original design (basicly a heavily improved T-72M as you know it) is not enough at all. I always thought WZ123 may goes to production much earlier if without these 2 events, and if so, we would probably have a Type 93 or Type 94 tank instead of the Type 99.

T-72M1 and T-72A look like the same, right? I mean, could that T-72 in fact be a T-72A?

And thank you for your great help, you corrected a lot of our mistakes (like museum's Storm-1's turret and the so called T-72B's interior photos).

And, so far, I still found 0 info about the 1-piece casted turret Type59 aside WZ111, nobody knows what's that turret. I think I may have to visit the museum myself someday, try to find out more info.

5 hours ago, Levi said:

Most of the photos seem to be a perfect T-72 match. Just as I said before, probability of this vehicle being T-72B was very low to begin with (T-72B couldn't have been found outside of Soviet Union prior to 1990s), and some pictures here prove it. Driver's and commander's controls (on photos 13 and 10) clearly identify it as T-72A/M1 and not T-72B (again, most likely M1). Picture 12 shows driver's place of neither T-72, nor any other Soviet vehicle, I do not know what it is. Photos 3 and 4 are ranther interesting. They seem to show typical T-72 autoloader, but something is off. I for one do not recognize boxes on the right side of the turret. Other pictures are typical to T-72. 1, 5, 6, 7, 9 show gun's breech, 2 - floor behind commander's seat, 8 - view behind driver's position (again, evidently this is a version prior to T-72B). 11 - transmission shift lever.

Thank you for your identification. So this must be the T-72M we traded from Romania:

(this is the only confirmed photo of this T-72M for many years, it was official called as "Type64 tank" for security reasons)

It seems you may didn't know about Chinese T-72B's story before: yes, technically, T-72B has never been exported, but, in the early 1990s, Russian army is busy on selling almost everything to feed themself, official or unofficial, legal or illegal. And there are rumors so we smuggled some T-80U and T-72B from your far eastern military district. Now, I don't know if the T-72B part is true (some of my friends said it is true), I never saw its confirmed photos, but the T-80U part is real for sure, here is the photo:

(and we found T-80U is completely immune to all our anti-tank weapons in the 1993 live fire test, this shocked PLA)

Now, back to the photo of plant 617's testing groud, I know you are far more professional on Russian tank than me, you said it should be a T72M (or T72A), do you mean you found some T72M's  features in the photo, or do you mean it is too hard to check out the specific type of this T72 in the photo but you believe it should be a T72M because there shouldn't be any T72B outside Russia?

On 2017/2/16 at 2:16 PM, Levi said:

 

Most of these photos were claimed taken from T-72s (some may from other vehicles) in Plant 617, can you recognize if it is a T72B or T72M or sth else from these photos?

1 hour ago, Xlucine said:

Where did you hear this, out of curiosity?

About 17 years before, on a Chinese magazine, and it do have a photo of " M1 turret front with a welded plate" ( the photo only shows the turret front ) like the one above.

6 hours ago, Levi said:

Early T-72M1 I think.
And thanks for the clarification on BK1851 tank.
By the way, how do WZ and BK codes relate to each other?

WZ is for vehicle which requested by PLA, like WZ120, WZ121, etc, that's what Chinese army asked first, then the plant start the project.

BK means "BaoKe" (In Chinese,"包科"),

"Bao"("包") means BaoTou ( "包头", a city of Inner Mongolia,  the city where plant 617 located),

"Ke"("科") means Keyan ( "科研", means "research" in English).

So BK means plant 617's own research project (not some stuff requested by PLA).

So they have no connection to each other,  a BK vehcile is not for the Army, so it won't have any WZ number.

I heard that US Army felt M1A1 (before M1A1HA) didn't have enough protection against Russian new tanks in 1980s, so they welded 80mm RHA plate to M1A1's hull and turret front. But I hardy see any picture of it.

So, is this the 1980s upgrade welded plate ? and why they kept so ancient stuff on a M1A2 tank?

6 hours ago, Khand-e said:

U-47 is one of the best assets on PLA topics we've had on this forum as you can see.

We have some others that are really good, they unfortunately aren't around much anymore though.

Thank you, that's part of the reason why I stay here, to share PLA info to these who like it.

5 hours ago, Bronezhilet said:

U-47, this is absolutely amazing. Thank you for posting these pictures and information!

And Levi, welcome to SH!

Thank you.

The real "1st Chinese welded turret" ( built in 1979 or 1980. some parts are cast made, I think it means the hatchs and the part around mantlet) of type 80 tank, which is used as a ballistic test target, there is a project ( maybe a 122mm HE? ) right in front of it.

Plant 617's testing ground, there are 2 WZ122s in the right, and a T72 (T72B?) in the left.

17 hours ago, Levi said:

 

You asked me about the different between 2 sets of photos of "Type80's welded turret" before, I just found out why:

This tank is not the "Type80 with test welded turret" at all, it is BK1851 as wrote on its turret. It's much later than "Type80 with test welded turret", it is a project started in 1985 which meant to use steering wheel driving and western engine & transmission parts.

Another unkown tank, maybe still BK1851:

I'll post BK1871 ( a early prototype of Type90-II tank, more like VK3601 to Tiger but not VK4501) 's photo later.

2 minutes ago, Levi said:

I may have seen it, but name "Product 704" is unfamiliar to me. Is it a Three-Mechanical vehicle? If yes, then I of course have seen all the searchable photos of it (accessible from google and baidu). But from time to time I accidentally stumble across new ones, some of which still cannot be found via image search. Besides, others may not be as involved in this topic as I am, so I's say it's safe to post anything which haven't been posted in the thread.

It is a mechanical vehicle, but not WZ122-2 or -3 or even WZ122s, it's a variant which designed and built by LuoYang plant (plant 704, that's why this tank is named as Product 704), you can take it as a improved WZ122 3-mechanical.