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U-47

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  1. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    It's a rumor, but comes with good reason, because we do imported 10 sets of MTU 8V331TC41 engine ( Leopard 2's MTU873's civil use version) in 1978, what we wanted is to make a tank engine version of it, for our future tank (at that time's future tank).
    The question is, the 960hp 8V165 ( V-8, cylinder diameter=165mm, which means 120hp per cylinder) prototype engine based on MTU failed in test again and again, the reason is simply: we don't have that level of technology in early 1980s, and Germans refuse to give us any help when we asked, so this engine had no way to go but died.
    After it failed, in 1981, we decided to devlop a new 1000hp 12V150 engine (and we hope we can improve it to 1200hp later) , which means 83hp per cylinder, so it's more easier to made than the 8V165. With the help from CV12 ( Challenger tank's 1200hp engine, we imported from British in 1985 and made a lot of live test on BK1850~BK1871, and obviously our technology level was better in 1985 than 8V165's 1978 ) and western experts ( I know they helped, but I don't know how much ),  this one is at least more reliable and been installed to WZ123's prototype. It was declare success in 1998, here, I don't know if it achieved 1000hp in 1998 or before 1998, anyway this is 9910's engine. And Type99 (the 2004 type) installed its 1200hp version.
    So basicly this engine is a Chinese one with some technology from British more than German.
    Type99A has a new engine, it is said it's a whole new engine developed all by ourself, but I don't know its detail.
    I don't know the whole codes for Type80 and Type85 family, I only know Type85-II AP's code is BK1055, and Type90-II is BK1062. And there is another interesting thing, somehow Plant 617 has a T-72 upgrade plan called BK1041, no detail info.
    I never heard Type85-IIA, I don't think it has been built.
    Type85-III's 1000hp engine pack comes from Yugoslavia, I never heard anything about we work with Poland on any tank.
    Type80's engine: Max 730HP at 2000 r/min, fuel cost 237~313L/100km ( type59 is 180~190L/100km in the same file, doesn't mention if it is on road or in the field, maybe the lower one is on road and the higher one is in the field), lubricant cost 8.5~10.3L/100km (type59 is 6~8).
    Type80: Max speed 57km/h (type59/69/79 is 50km/h in the same file), average speed on road is 35~40km/h (type59 is 30~33, type69/79 is 32~35).
     
     
    I think the Type80 with D10T gun is a early prototype.
    I don't know where you find this early Type99's picture, but that's nice, I never saw this photo before.
    I have to sleep now, it's 01:31 here already.
  2. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Belesarius in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    It's a rumor, but comes with good reason, because we do imported 10 sets of MTU 8V331TC41 engine ( Leopard 2's MTU873's civil use version) in 1978, what we wanted is to make a tank engine version of it, for our future tank (at that time's future tank).
    The question is, the 960hp 8V165 ( V-8, cylinder diameter=165mm, which means 120hp per cylinder) prototype engine based on MTU failed in test again and again, the reason is simply: we don't have that level of technology in early 1980s, and Germans refuse to give us any help when we asked, so this engine had no way to go but died.
    After it failed, in 1981, we decided to devlop a new 1000hp 12V150 engine (and we hope we can improve it to 1200hp later) , which means 83hp per cylinder, so it's more easier to made than the 8V165. With the help from CV12 ( Challenger tank's 1200hp engine, we imported from British in 1985 and made a lot of live test on BK1850~BK1871, and obviously our technology level was better in 1985 than 8V165's 1978 ) and western experts ( I know they helped, but I don't know how much ),  this one is at least more reliable and been installed to WZ123's prototype. It was declare success in 1998, here, I don't know if it achieved 1000hp in 1998 or before 1998, anyway this is 9910's engine. And Type99 (the 2004 type) installed its 1200hp version.
    So basicly this engine is a Chinese one with some technology from British more than German.
    Type99A has a new engine, it is said it's a whole new engine developed all by ourself, but I don't know its detail.
    I don't know the whole codes for Type80 and Type85 family, I only know Type85-II AP's code is BK1055, and Type90-II is BK1062. And there is another interesting thing, somehow Plant 617 has a T-72 upgrade plan called BK1041, no detail info.
    I never heard Type85-IIA, I don't think it has been built.
    Type85-III's 1000hp engine pack comes from Yugoslavia, I never heard anything about we work with Poland on any tank.
    Type80's engine: Max 730HP at 2000 r/min, fuel cost 237~313L/100km ( type59 is 180~190L/100km in the same file, doesn't mention if it is on road or in the field, maybe the lower one is on road and the higher one is in the field), lubricant cost 8.5~10.3L/100km (type59 is 6~8).
    Type80: Max speed 57km/h (type59/69/79 is 50km/h in the same file), average speed on road is 35~40km/h (type59 is 30~33, type69/79 is 32~35).
     
     
    I think the Type80 with D10T gun is a early prototype.
    I don't know where you find this early Type99's picture, but that's nice, I never saw this photo before.
    I have to sleep now, it's 01:31 here already.
  3. Tank You
    U-47 reacted to Levi in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Didn't see this one before, hence many thanks!
    So, as we now have seen the vehicle's engine compartment, I assume it was to be powered by the same engine the final Type 99 version ended up with, wasn't it? Is it actually based on MTU MB 873 design as many articles suggest, or is it just a rumor?
    I also have couple photos of WZ123 running prototype, more advanced design than what this mockup represents, but still inferior to the final Type 99:


    Note that it is armed with 2A46 gun instead of ZPT-98, lacks commander's panoramic sight, and turret's cheek armor has visibly less los thickness than production variant.
    Another interesting thing - unknown Type 80 prototype armed with D-10:


    And another bunch of my questions:
    -What were the factory codes for Type 80 and Type 85 family vehicles? Not all of them were developed out of factory's own initiative.
    -What is the difference between Type 85-II and Type 85-IIA? Was Type 85-IIA ever made? I have seen no photos.
    -What engine and transmission did Type 85-III have? Some sources claim it was equipped with 1000hp V-2 derivative and BKPs. If yes, then are we to assume these originated from Poland?
    -Can you give a rundown of Chinese V-2 derivatives and transmissions Type 80 and 85 tanks had?
  4. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Khand-e in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Not much, I know sth about what we have in that era ( specific armour and weapon performance, but it is still classified info, so I can't told you the detail, what I can share is in 1989, the lowest Chinese composite armour is a copy of early T72's UFP armour, 200mm at 22  degree, which resist 320mm VS AP and 425mm VS HEAT; the best one is also 200mm/22 degree, which can resist 400mm+ VS AP and 600mm+ VS HEAT. So we may assume that's what the first prototype has ), but not WZ123's original design's detail info.
    All I have about it, is another photo of its early model, this is declassified:

  5. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Not much, I know sth about what we have in that era ( specific armour and weapon performance, but it is still classified info, so I can't told you the detail, what I can share is in 1989, the lowest Chinese composite armour is a copy of early T72's UFP armour, 200mm at 22  degree, which resist 320mm VS AP and 425mm VS HEAT; the best one is also 200mm/22 degree, which can resist 400mm+ VS AP and 600mm+ VS HEAT. So we may assume that's what the first prototype has ), but not WZ123's original design's detail info.
    All I have about it, is another photo of its early model, this is declassified:

  6. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Met749 in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Not much, I know sth about what we have in that era ( specific armour and weapon performance, but it is still classified info, so I can't told you the detail, what I can share is in 1989, the lowest Chinese composite armour is a copy of early T72's UFP armour, 200mm at 22  degree, which resist 320mm VS AP and 425mm VS HEAT; the best one is also 200mm/22 degree, which can resist 400mm+ VS AP and 600mm+ VS HEAT. So we may assume that's what the first prototype has ), but not WZ123's original design's detail info.
    All I have about it, is another photo of its early model, this is declassified:

  7. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Levi in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Not much, I know sth about what we have in that era ( specific armour and weapon performance, but it is still classified info, so I can't told you the detail, what I can share is in 1989, the lowest Chinese composite armour is a copy of early T72's UFP armour, 200mm at 22  degree, which resist 320mm VS AP and 425mm VS HEAT; the best one is also 200mm/22 degree, which can resist 400mm+ VS AP and 600mm+ VS HEAT. So we may assume that's what the first prototype has ), but not WZ123's original design's detail info.
    All I have about it, is another photo of its early model, this is declassified:

  8. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Belesarius in The PLAN present and future: Or, The rapid modernization of the Chinese navy and marines.   
    Chinese carrier's research land-model is under reconstruction, it shows Carrier 002's current design:





    Meanwhile, Type 055 destroyer's research land-model:


  9. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Thank you for your identification. So this must be the T-72M we traded from Romania:

    (this is the only confirmed photo of this T-72M for many years, it was official called as "Type64 tank" for security reasons)
    It seems you may didn't know about Chinese T-72B's story before: yes, technically, T-72B has never been exported, but, in the early 1990s, Russian army is busy on selling almost everything to feed themself, official or unofficial, legal or illegal. And there are rumors so we smuggled some T-80U and T-72B from your far eastern military district. Now, I don't know if the T-72B part is true (some of my friends said it is true), I never saw its confirmed photos, but the T-80U part is real for sure, here is the photo:

    (and we found T-80U is completely immune to all our anti-tank weapons in the 1993 live fire test, this shocked PLA)
    Now, back to the photo of plant 617's testing groud, I know you are far more professional on Russian tank than me, you said it should be a T72M (or T72A), do you mean you found some T72M's  features in the photo, or do you mean it is too hard to check out the specific type of this T72 in the photo but you believe it should be a T72M because there shouldn't be any T72B outside Russia?

  10. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Collimatrix in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Thank you for your identification. So this must be the T-72M we traded from Romania:

    (this is the only confirmed photo of this T-72M for many years, it was official called as "Type64 tank" for security reasons)
    It seems you may didn't know about Chinese T-72B's story before: yes, technically, T-72B has never been exported, but, in the early 1990s, Russian army is busy on selling almost everything to feed themself, official or unofficial, legal or illegal. And there are rumors so we smuggled some T-80U and T-72B from your far eastern military district. Now, I don't know if the T-72B part is true (some of my friends said it is true), I never saw its confirmed photos, but the T-80U part is real for sure, here is the photo:

    (and we found T-80U is completely immune to all our anti-tank weapons in the 1993 live fire test, this shocked PLA)
    Now, back to the photo of plant 617's testing groud, I know you are far more professional on Russian tank than me, you said it should be a T72M (or T72A), do you mean you found some T72M's  features in the photo, or do you mean it is too hard to check out the specific type of this T72 in the photo but you believe it should be a T72M because there shouldn't be any T72B outside Russia?

  11. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Scolopax in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Thank you for your identification. So this must be the T-72M we traded from Romania:

    (this is the only confirmed photo of this T-72M for many years, it was official called as "Type64 tank" for security reasons)
    It seems you may didn't know about Chinese T-72B's story before: yes, technically, T-72B has never been exported, but, in the early 1990s, Russian army is busy on selling almost everything to feed themself, official or unofficial, legal or illegal. And there are rumors so we smuggled some T-80U and T-72B from your far eastern military district. Now, I don't know if the T-72B part is true (some of my friends said it is true), I never saw its confirmed photos, but the T-80U part is real for sure, here is the photo:

    (and we found T-80U is completely immune to all our anti-tank weapons in the 1993 live fire test, this shocked PLA)
    Now, back to the photo of plant 617's testing groud, I know you are far more professional on Russian tank than me, you said it should be a T72M (or T72A), do you mean you found some T72M's  features in the photo, or do you mean it is too hard to check out the specific type of this T72 in the photo but you believe it should be a T72M because there shouldn't be any T72B outside Russia?

  12. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Khand-e in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Thank you for your identification. So this must be the T-72M we traded from Romania:

    (this is the only confirmed photo of this T-72M for many years, it was official called as "Type64 tank" for security reasons)
    It seems you may didn't know about Chinese T-72B's story before: yes, technically, T-72B has never been exported, but, in the early 1990s, Russian army is busy on selling almost everything to feed themself, official or unofficial, legal or illegal. And there are rumors so we smuggled some T-80U and T-72B from your far eastern military district. Now, I don't know if the T-72B part is true (some of my friends said it is true), I never saw its confirmed photos, but the T-80U part is real for sure, here is the photo:

    (and we found T-80U is completely immune to all our anti-tank weapons in the 1993 live fire test, this shocked PLA)
    Now, back to the photo of plant 617's testing groud, I know you are far more professional on Russian tank than me, you said it should be a T72M (or T72A), do you mean you found some T72M's  features in the photo, or do you mean it is too hard to check out the specific type of this T72 in the photo but you believe it should be a T72M because there shouldn't be any T72B outside Russia?

  13. Tank You
    U-47 reacted to Andrei_bt in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    100 photos from PLA tank Museum - link
  14. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from LoooSeR in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    The real "1st Chinese welded turret" ( built in 1979 or 1980. some parts are cast made, I think it means the hatchs and the part around mantlet) of type 80 tank, which is used as a ballistic test target, there is a project ( maybe a 122mm HE? ) right in front of it.

    Plant 617's testing ground, there are 2 WZ122s in the right, and a T72 (T72B?) in the left.

     
    You asked me about the different between 2 sets of photos of "Type80's welded turret" before, I just found out why:


    This tank is not the "Type80 with test welded turret" at all, it is BK1851 as wrote on its turret. It's much later than "Type80 with test welded turret", it is a project started in 1985 which meant to use steering wheel driving and western engine & transmission parts.
    Another unkown tank, maybe still BK1851:

    I'll post BK1871 ( a early prototype of Type90-II tank, more like VK3601 to Tiger but not VK4501) 's photo later.
  15. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from LoooSeR in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    It is a mechanical vehicle, but not WZ122-2 or -3 or even WZ122s, it's a variant which designed and built by LuoYang plant (plant 704, that's why this tank is named as Product 704), you can take it as a improved WZ122 3-mechanical.









  16. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from LoooSeR in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    1, we built 3-hydraulic (WZ122-1) first, and it is a disaster, completely unreliable; that's why we turned back to mechanical (3-mechanical, WZ122-2 and WZ122-3), but they didn't work very well else, one of WZ122B (I don't whether it is WZ1222 or WZ1223) is in plant617's museum as the photo showed before, another one's turret is installed on a Type80 tank body and displaying in BeiJing tank museum (the photo below).

    2, buddy, I don't know what pictures you've saw already, and since plant617's museum is not a pubilc museum (and these tanks may also be stored in the warehouse untill now), the photos I uploaded are the only new photos so far.
    3, there are other Storm-1 and Storm-2 (they are almost identical except the engine and transmission part) displaying in Chinese North Industries Corp's park and plant617's park. I checked their photos and I found you're right.:








    4, I havn't notice this special 59 tank before, I'll see to what I can find.
  17. Tank You
    U-47 reacted to Levi in Transmissions and final drives   
    Not sure if what I'm writing now is needed (or wasn't posted before), but I'll make a little contribution of my own.
    I always thought of Russian 2nd gen MBTs having "very special" transmission arrangement as a well known fact, but constant confusion and numerous gaffes (like wikipedia articles claiming T-72 transmission to be a synchromesh, or Al-Khalid being equipped with SESM ESM500, which are both garbage) drove me to write this.
    I do not have much time and haven't been able to find any decent articles, so I'll be brief. Long story short - Soviet/Russian tanks from T-64 through T-90 (and Ukrainian T-84) do not have a transmission per se. All the shifting is done in final drive assemblies instead - so called BKPs - "half-gearboxes". There is no main clutch - when clutch pedal is pressed, clutches in both BKPs are disengaged, and there is also no steering mechanism. Steering is done by switching one of the half-transmissions to the lower gear, or braking with disengaged clutch if it already was in the first gear. It's easy to deduce that this way you get a unique turning radius on each gear.
    Here's an excerpt with description from T-72A manual:





    And a gorgeous picture from Rolf Hilmes' "Kampfpanzer Heute und Morgen". Unfortunately I don't have a scanner, so the quality is medicore to say at least.

    The interesting part is why did they come up with such a system to begin with. BKP was originally designed as a part of Object 430 tank's powerpack, and later used on it's successor - T-64. In both of those tanks BKPs were coupled each to a different end of the "briefcase engine's" crankshaft. One of crankshafts actually, since briefcases (both 5TD and 6TD) are horizontal transversely mounted opposite piston engines. The simple schematic of this:

    (and here's why 6TD-equipped Al-Khalid couldn't possibly have a SESM transmission)
    All of it was done in favor of saving space - T-64 was and is easily the most compact main battle tank ever produced. And the tradeoffs were considered acceptable. The obvious downside to this is a principal inability to insert a torque converter in such a power train, attempts to introduce hydrostatic steering also didn't produce any viable results. None the less BKPs were carried onto many subsequent Soviet MBT designs, in favor of both uniformity and space saving. Here's an example of North Korean Chonma tanks model 215 and 216 I've made some time before. Transition from synchromesh to BKP was most likely made because of latter ability to handle more torque, but difference in engine compartment size is also obvious:

  18. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    1, we built 3-hydraulic (WZ122-1) first, and it is a disaster, completely unreliable; that's why we turned back to mechanical (3-mechanical, WZ122-2 and WZ122-3), but they didn't work very well else, one of WZ122B (I don't whether it is WZ1222 or WZ1223) is in plant617's museum as the photo showed before, another one's turret is installed on a Type80 tank body and displaying in BeiJing tank museum (the photo below).

    2, buddy, I don't know what pictures you've saw already, and since plant617's museum is not a pubilc museum (and these tanks may also be stored in the warehouse untill now), the photos I uploaded are the only new photos so far.
    3, there are other Storm-1 and Storm-2 (they are almost identical except the engine and transmission part) displaying in Chinese North Industries Corp's park and plant617's park. I checked their photos and I found you're right.:








    4, I havn't notice this special 59 tank before, I'll see to what I can find.
  19. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    WZ is for vehicle which requested by PLA, like WZ120, WZ121, etc, that's what Chinese army asked first, then the plant start the project.
    BK means "BaoKe" (In Chinese,"包科"),
    "Bao"("包") means BaoTou ( "包头", a city of Inner Mongolia,  the city where plant 617 located),
    "Ke"("科") means Keyan ( "科研", means "research" in English).
    So BK means plant 617's own research project (not some stuff requested by PLA).
    So they have no connection to each other,  a BK vehcile is not for the Army, so it won't have any WZ number.
  20. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    Thank you, that's part of the reason why I stay here, to share PLA info to these who like it.
    Thank you.
  21. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Zyklon in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    It is a mechanical vehicle, but not WZ122-2 or -3 or even WZ122s, it's a variant which designed and built by LuoYang plant (plant 704, that's why this tank is named as Product 704), you can take it as a improved WZ122 3-mechanical.









  22. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from LoooSeR in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    WZ is for vehicle which requested by PLA, like WZ120, WZ121, etc, that's what Chinese army asked first, then the plant start the project.
    BK means "BaoKe" (In Chinese,"包科"),
    "Bao"("包") means BaoTou ( "包头", a city of Inner Mongolia,  the city where plant 617 located),
    "Ke"("科") means Keyan ( "科研", means "research" in English).
    So BK means plant 617's own research project (not some stuff requested by PLA).
    So they have no connection to each other,  a BK vehcile is not for the Army, so it won't have any WZ number.
  23. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Khand-e in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    WZ is for vehicle which requested by PLA, like WZ120, WZ121, etc, that's what Chinese army asked first, then the plant start the project.
    BK means "BaoKe" (In Chinese,"包科"),
    "Bao"("包") means BaoTou ( "包头", a city of Inner Mongolia,  the city where plant 617 located),
    "Ke"("科") means Keyan ( "科研", means "research" in English).
    So BK means plant 617's own research project (not some stuff requested by PLA).
    So they have no connection to each other,  a BK vehcile is not for the Army, so it won't have any WZ number.
  24. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Levi in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    WZ is for vehicle which requested by PLA, like WZ120, WZ121, etc, that's what Chinese army asked first, then the plant start the project.
    BK means "BaoKe" (In Chinese,"包科"),
    "Bao"("包") means BaoTou ( "包头", a city of Inner Mongolia,  the city where plant 617 located),
    "Ke"("科") means Keyan ( "科研", means "research" in English).
    So BK means plant 617's own research project (not some stuff requested by PLA).
    So they have no connection to each other,  a BK vehcile is not for the Army, so it won't have any WZ number.
  25. Tank You
    U-47 got a reaction from Levi in Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!   
    The real "1st Chinese welded turret" ( built in 1979 or 1980. some parts are cast made, I think it means the hatchs and the part around mantlet) of type 80 tank, which is used as a ballistic test target, there is a project ( maybe a 122mm HE? ) right in front of it.

    Plant 617's testing ground, there are 2 WZ122s in the right, and a T72 (T72B?) in the left.

     
    You asked me about the different between 2 sets of photos of "Type80's welded turret" before, I just found out why:


    This tank is not the "Type80 with test welded turret" at all, it is BK1851 as wrote on its turret. It's much later than "Type80 with test welded turret", it is a project started in 1985 which meant to use steering wheel driving and western engine & transmission parts.
    Another unkown tank, maybe still BK1851:

    I'll post BK1871 ( a early prototype of Type90-II tank, more like VK3601 to Tiger but not VK4501) 's photo later.
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