Laser Shark
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Posts posted by Laser Shark
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A third batch of 11 Wisent 2s was just confirmed for Norway. 8 will be in the AEV role, and the remaining 3 in the ARV role. FMA also makes a point to mention that some of these were needed to replace the 3 NM189 AEVs and the single NM217 ARV that were donated to Ukraine earlier this year.
https://www.fma.no/aktuelt-og-media/2020/forsvaret-far-flere-ingenior-og-bergingspanservogner
Another 2 LEGUAN Leo 2 AVLBs are also in the pipeline, but there's been no news of any contract just yet.
And finally, the option to purchase the additional 18 Leo 2A8NOR apparently runs out today, so unless we see some kind of announcement on this today, even just an extension of the deadline, I don't have much hope for any additional MBTs for Norway.
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Wagner T-90S that got stuck in the gates of Rostov circus:
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The American company Miller Industries Towing Equipment Inc. (MITE) has received a contract to deliver seven light armoured recovery vehicles to the Norwegian Army, by developing and integrating a recovery module onto the newly developed ACSV G5. The contract also includes an option for two more light ARVs.
https://www.fma.no/aktuelt-og-media/2020/forsvaret-far-nye-pansrede-bergingsvogner
- Clan_Ghost_Bear, Rico and Serge
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Norwegian media are now reporting that the serial production of the ACSV G5 will commence around the turn of the year at the earliest. Production bottlenecks caused by the Ukraine war, on top of after effects from the pandemics and the 2021 floods, are cited as reasons for the delays.
That said, this is kind of old news at this point (at least for anyone who has been paying close attention to this project), so I can’t help but wonder if it might not be related to this recent visit to FFG by Stoltenberg and Pistorius...
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That’s a very difficult question to answer since the 2A7 NOR is surrounded in speculation more so than facts. It might be that it was going to be something else before the Norwegian Army changed up its mind (for one reason or the other), or it could be that the 2A7NOR was finalised as the 2A8NOR because the Norwegian and German armies were of a similar mind about what their future tank should be like.
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Leo 2A8 for Norway too it seems. Main difference will be integration of Kongsberg ICS/CORTEX, and probably few other changes, earning the tank the designation Leo 2A8 NOR, but it's essentially the same tank as the one that will be delivered to the BW (with more countries likely to follow).
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According to the Dutch MoD, a Boxer based solution would be considerably more expensive, but they do not mention any numbers.
"The SHORAD capability will be delivered on the Armored Combat Support Vehicle (ACSV) G5. The SHORAD solution on the ACSV G5 is fully compliant and MOTS is available (the ACSV G5 is in production and will be delivered to Norway in Q3 of this year). The development risks for the integration with the MMR and the command and control IT of Defense are low, resulting in MOTS. The alternative, the SHORAD solution on the Boxer armored vehicle, is considerably more expensive, has a high development risk and has a longer delivery time."
https://open.overheid.nl/documenten/a7533034-3089-4996-9187-2603a070a97b/file
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Looks like the Netherlands are acquiring the SHORAD variant of the ACSV G5:
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On 4/30/2023 at 6:57 PM, SH_MM said:
- SnakeKqcke and David Moyes
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Re the Norwegian acquisition, it's been revealed that the contract value sits at approx. 11.5 BNOK, and that it will cost 3.6 BNOK to acquire another 18. So roughly 20 million USD per tank.
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As with the Wisent 2s, it seems they’re looking to implement some weight saving measures on the new Leo 2 AVLBs:
QuoteThe winter testing is carried out in collaboration between the Norwegian Defence Material Agency, the Norwegian Army and the German supplier Krauss - Maffei Wegman (KMW), and will last for three weeks.
"We are testing mobility with light skirts* and a new type of lighter tracks on the vehicles, and will look at how this works in winter conditions. We are also testing a new solution that will prevent the engine's air intakes from becoming clogged with snow," says Thunshelle.
* I wonder if these "light skirts" are just the standard Leo 2 skirts, that are only lighter in comparison to the heavier and better protected skirts on the German Army's Leo 2 AVLB?
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5 hours ago, SH_MM said:
I wonder if the "better availability" was really given. Didn't they want to buy the K2NO variant with increased weight and Trophy? At the moment this variant only exists on paper and would require - aside of a new/altered production line - a lot of additional testing before being production ready. Then there also is the Polish order. The deliveries of the "K2 Gap Filler" are to last until 2026. That makes a delivery of K2/K2NO tanks to Norway before 2026 seem rather unlikely.
Well, earlier in Oct, ROK stated that they’d be willing to give up 24 tanks from their own production line, and could ship these to Norway in 6-8 months, but those would almost certainly have been regular K2s, and not the proposed K2NO variant. Still, a couple of dozen interim/“gap filler” K2s would nonetheless have been an improvement on the current tanks, even if they didn’t meet all of the requirements, so there is that to consider.
On the other hand, I personally can’t really see why this would have been a particularly big selling point until the government decided that we should donate some of our Leo 2s to Ukraine (even though we barely have enough to outfit our current tank squadrons…), but that decision was also made after FMA had already delivered their recommendation, so who knows...
6 hours ago, Pardus said:I have a feeling the superior protection and firepower of the 2A7NO, not to mention far easier logistics considering all neighbours use of the Leo, is what was the decider. The rest is just drama as the chief of defence didnt want new tanks in the first place, but instead wanted attack helis.
Not attack helos. Just new transport helos (Bell 412 replacement) for the Army and SOF, as well as new naval helos (NH90 NFH replacement) for the Navy and Coastguard. He also wants long range rocket artillery, and more air defence systems. In other words, sensible stuff, which should be funded, but so should the new tanks IMO.
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On 2/7/2023 at 7:54 PM, Pardus said:
Regarding the Norwegian weight limit of 61.5 t, if that is upheld then the Leopard 2A7NO is going to lack some pretty substantial protection in places as compared to the 2A7DK which weighs in at 68+ t. Or was this Norwegian requirement amended?
The 62.5 tonnes figure concerned a dispensation limit for certain stretches of the road network, and we (as in people who don’t have inside knowledge) don’t know if there even existed such a requirement (probably not seeing as how the Norwegian government is on record stating that both tanks satisfied the requirements).
We also don't know for certain if Leo 2A7NO will exceed 62.5 tonnes, but considering that KMW’s own website lists a weight of 61.5-64.3 tonnes (likely empty vs combat ready, but a lot of the bells and whistles like APS are apparently not included in the latter figure either), it does seem rather likely. Of course, this is also going to limit where this tank can go compared to earlier Leo 2A4NO (and the proposed K2NO) unless the Norwegian Public Roads Administration start granting requests for heavier dispensations and/or more of the road infranstructure is upgraded to handle the extra weight.
Leo 2A7NO might also not be worse protected than its German and Danish counterweight if weight can be saved in other ways, e.g. lighter tracks, lithium batteries instead of APU, new materials and construction techniques (as mentioned by @SH_MM)etc.. Insufficient protection was among the given reasons for cancellation of the earlier P 5050 project, so Leo 2A7NO should at least be better protected than a Leo 2A4NO with add-on armor.
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Now for some more juicy gossip & drama. Dagens Næringsliv – the same newspaper that broke the stories about the Chef of Defence’s advice to cancel this project and the compromise with a reduced order – now write that according to sources close to the Norwegian government, the Norwegian Defence Material Agency (FMA) had actually recommended the K2 in their assessment of the candidates, with its lower price and better availability being what ultimately tilted the scale in its favour, It was apparently also the option that the Chief of Defence was the most on board with, which I suppose makes sense seeing as how it sounds like he’d rather spend as little as possible on new tanks (heh). Ultimately, though, the Norwegian government would not heed either them as they had already made up their minds on the importance of strengthening the military and industrial bonds with Germany (I hate to toot my own horn, but I did predict as much earlier in this thread).
- Ramlaen, Rico and Clan_Ghost_Bear
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The reduced order (originally, the project called for 72-84 tanks) is supposedly a compromise between the MoD and the Chief of Defence since the latter wanted to put the project on ice in order to accelerate other projects, like long range rocket artillery (somehow we are still at the point where projects like these are pitted against each other…). Hopefully they’ll rectify this in the future since the order does include an option for the missing 18 tanks, but I won't be holding my breath.
- SH_MM and Clan_Ghost_Bear
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CV9030 OPV with Hawkeye MMP
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Another update on the Norwegian tank replacement programme, maybe even the last one.
It’s been confirmed that the Norwegian Defence Material Agency delivered their final recommendation to the Norwegian Defence Staff on Nov 22, and that it’s now been passed to the Norwegian government, meaning that a final decision could be around the corner.
Buuuuuuuut...
It’s also been leaked that the Chief of Defence Eirik Kristoffersen has provided his own personal recommendation to cancel the entire programme, and instead use the funds on long range fires and new helicopters. His reasoning is still somewhat unclear, whether it means he’s against the mechanized concept or if he just wants to postpone an acquisition in favor of others, and so far there has been no indication that it will have any effect on the programme, but we’ll see.
Corporal Frisk has also written a good article on this, and I wholeheartedly agree with his conclusion that Norway does in fact still need tanks.
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Another update re the Norwegian MBT project:
Apparently, South Korea is also offering to divert 24 tanks from their own production line, which means that the deliveries can start as early as 6-8 months after the contract is signed. Not sure if those would be K2NOs or more or less standard South Korean Army K2s that will have be converted at a later stage.
- Clan_Ghost_Bear, Laviduce and Cleb
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12 hours ago, Lord_James said:
@Laser Shark, do you think this will sway Norway’s opinion on the K2 now that there is another European buyer?The contest certainly seems a lot more open after this victory, and it wasn't a moment too soon as had it happened just a few months later it probably would have been too late to affect the outcome of the Norwegian process.
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K2NO model at Eurosatory. RWS is now in front of the commander instead of behind him, and we also get a better look at the new armour package. The mid section of the hull front is much slimmer on this model too, so maybe some armor/weight was shaved off here in order to add it elsewhere?
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That one is certainly closer to what I expect a Leopard 2A7NO will look like, even if there are some minor differences still (it doesn't have Protector Nordic, there is no camera system for the driver etc.).
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Some additional info, though it's clearly from a while ago since Norway has ditched Arthur in favour of GM200 MM/C. The last picture is also the first look at the light armoured recovery variant.
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Marders will still be used for years to come in both the Bundeswehr (although they are indeed slowly phasing them out) and countries like Chile, Indonesia and Jordan, so it shouldn’t be too much of a hassle to get spares for these. In fact, they can probably acquire/cannibalize the German ones as they are phased out too.
It gets more sketchy when it comes to the Leo 1s (the tank, not the support vehicles) and the Gepards, but there are a few countries that are still using these as well, so they must be getting spares from somewhere.
CV-90, why so much love ?
in Mechanized Warfare
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