Gun Ready

https://images.app.goo.gl/SheeyNG4T8Z3vFM6A

Finnish 2A6

1 hour ago, Militarysta said:

My all dear friends,

first of all - polish MoD mr Błaszczak is lying when he only open his mounth. The same PiS (Law and Justice party) goverment. This is faritails propose only by parlement election this outum in Poland. They will be no new tank in possible to recoginze future in Poland - 2PL, 2A5 after small upgrade and just refresh T-72M1 and thats all. Poland will take Finish 2A6 and Protugaleese if those countres will sell those tanks. And thats all. You must understand that this goverment is lying whole time and sucht "declaracton of interest" is only bubble talks to deluge all around - german partenrs, EU industry, polish soliders and...people before parlament election. Whole goverment narration is about "building strong army" whit 4th division, unit deploy to est, taking US forcet to Poland and tehnical modernisation of the Polish Army. Inn all aspect is low-cost shit. Sorry for talk this straight. In case tanks - all buble talk about "super duper IVgen German-French=Polish tank"  is only to deluge that will be done more then...to small refresh 230 T-72M1 and 148 Leopard 2PL (and this program is totall disaster right now). 

Comprehensive answer @Militarysta! Giving a credible picture what's going on in Polish MoD. Do they really have a chance to get 2A6 from Finland or Portugal and are they able to pay for?

First I thank @SH_MM for tracing MGCS. In may opinion the Polish are welcome to the program but not in this stage. In the beginning of the technology demonstrator study phase Polish industry would not be required at all. They want to make quick business. But may be that the research establishment WITU would be welcome to participate with their technology ideas. @Militarysta what is your opinion to this?

16 hours ago, Beer said:

Pardon my ignorance but how the driver enters and exits the vehicle? Through the turret (aside of the escape hatch in the floor)? 

He can only climb in and out if the turret is in 11:30 position! That is also the position to drive with open hatch on road.

On 8/4/2019 at 8:26 PM, BkktMkkt said:

Great job, really! What CAD program did you use? 

Coming back to the old German specification for armour steel (TL 2350-0001): The allocation to hardness is the following

A, R and D   250 to 300

B                   310 to 360

C                   340 to 390

E                   400 to 450

X                   370 to 420

W                  400 to 450

V                   440 to 490

L                    250 to 300

Now @Wiedzmin you can perform the analysis for the old Leopard 2 AV.

BTW, why are you boys always discussing the pretty old stuff of Leopard 2 AV? Only two, to my knowledge, had been built. Nowadays we are talking about Leopard 2 A7V! So the "7" should be taken into discussion!

On 7/22/2019 at 1:45 PM, Militarysta said:

Today our PM signiture contract for upgrade up to 318 T-72M1.

https://www.premier.gov.pl/wydarzenia/aktualnosci/premier-mateusz-morawiecki-odbudowujemy-potencjal-polskiej-armii.html

 

Firstly, it will be upgraded between 250 and 318 tanks. It depends on how much money from this PLN 1.75 billion will be spent during program.
Secondly, the range of work on tanks will be different - some T-72M1 wil get more mork other less,. It's  due to fact that some of them have been rebuild since 2014 so it's not neccary to rebuild all tanks.
Thirdly, "small modernization"  includes: 

-  PNK-55/72 „Radomka” for driver

- Liswarta (or TKN-3Z) for Tc

- new fast hoping ECCM radio  RRC 9310AP "Radmor" (in comander tank - two radios)

 - full seto of PCT-72 thermal sight for T-72 tanks  including KLW-1 thermal cameras and two monitors - one for Tk and one for gunner.

And thats all...very budget rebuild whit cosmetic "upgrade". 

 

About PNK-72, Liswarta and PCT72 you can find data here:

https://pcosa.com.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/PCO_product_catalogue.pdf

pages 18 -21

About RRC 9310AP "Radmor" here:

http://www.radmor.com.pl/eng/Military-products/Radios/RRC-9310AP-tactical-VHF-ECCM-50W-vehicle-radio

 

The 409 million euro program will make Rheinmetall not happy with their business program in Poland, or? What impact may be expected for them? I thought that Polish MOD wanted to participate at MGCS program. Is that now delayed or even obsolete?

Any news within the community to EMBT and MGCS. It's quite quiet around these stuff, isn't it?!?

On 7/23/2019 at 7:16 PM, SH_MM said:

 

I say that Type C armor cannot stop DM43 based on the available information. DM43 has a 600 mm long penetrator and a muzzle velocity of 1,740 m/s. It should be enough to deal with armor supposedly having troubles with DM23 at close ranges. The LKE1 prototype nearly defeated the frontal armor of a simulated T-80U turret with Kontakt-5 ERA, i.e. "over 700 mm RHA", if one does care about such figures.

 

If the Leopard 2A5 kept Type C base armor, why did the Germans use old turrets from the earliest batches to create them? They could have just kept the old turrets and only modified the area around the EMES 15. But they didn't. Also why would Rolf Hilmes lie?

The image from the Swedish leaks shows five different colored areas in the graphs, suggesting there are five armor configuration. Unless you argue that these are refering to different configurations of add-on armor, there is one color without representation.

I agree with you that the yellow graph matches the "German model" (Type B armor with Type D add-on modules), but please take a look at the blue area.

It has less armor protection at 50% than the "German model", but much greater coverage with higher protection. This means that this armor somehow covers less area (like lacking the hull add-ons), but is better than Type B + Type D add-ons in terms of average coverage between 85% and 30%. If you pay attention to the gradients at the end of the graph, it becomes obvious that the yellow area would have higher protection at below ~25% coverage, i.e. a better turret front armor (if the gradients do not change). In other words the armor package represented by the blue graph covers less area and has weaker turret front armor, but higher protection at other areas. How is that possible in your opinion?

 

The only explanation aside the existence of a Type D base armor package (for which there are sources claiming that it existed) or multiple types of add-on armor, which however were never mentioned by any source and never has been spotted. Both TVMs use the same armor, the KVT was made with mock-up modules only.

 

 

That is an anecdote and hardly a source. Tank crews do not take of the skirts by themselves on a regular basis and without uusing a scale, I doubt that he can distinguish between 75 kg and 100+ kg.

 

@Wiedzmin, I have found a theory about the different steel types mentioned in the Leopard 2AV docs. Letter codes used for construction steel might be the explanation:

• hh: gehärtet - high hardness
• sh: geschält - hot rolled steel, turned (for extra smooth surface - might be an advantage when used in NERA?)
• W: wetterfest - weather resistant
• V: vergütet - steel with high UTS
• C: kaltgezogen - cold rolled

 

 

I have the answer for @Wiedzmin to the different steel types and old dude @SH_MM is completely wrong with his theory:

The letters are used in the old German specification for armour steel TL-2350-0001 for different hardnesses where W is 400 to 450 HBW, V is for 440 to 490 HBW and C is for 340 to 390 HBW. The letters hh and sh are not German abbreviations.

2 hours ago, SH_MM said:

 

Penetration at "normal" means perpendicular impact angle to the armor plate, so the 85° impact angle makes sense. The gun was probably placed a bit too far to the side, thus it didn't hit the turret front at a perpendicular angle (i.e. 90°). I believe the impact angle written next to the HOT impact on the left-hand turret side is also supposed to say "85°", it is just hardly readable due to poor hand writing.

 

The fact that the turret armor was penetrated by the DM23 isn't surprising, given the impact location and the limited LOS there (orange line):

 

Overall protection seems quite good. The gunner's sight weakspot was penetrated, but only barely so that a spall liner (or maybe the electronics of the gunner) would have stopped the residual penetration, crew would stay alive. Hull seems to be worse, but again all penetrations are "unlucky". Shot 5 (KE round at hull front) split the weldline, so it seems it hit the edge of the hull armor module rather than the center. Shot 6 (KE round at left-hand hull side) missed the armor skirt. So only one penetration by HOT (shot 1) seems to be "normal"/"fair".

It should be noted that the CE with 136 mm is the HOT1 and should not be confused with the HOT2 which has 150 mm in SC warhead caliber an therefore another penetration performance.

12 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

As amusing as it would be, replacing their Leopard 2A4 with Abrams would not be a good use of limited defense funds.

Especially if you think about the thirsty turbine. Then they have to ask the Russians to supply them cheap kerosene before riding against the East. Ha, ha!

5 hours ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

Who's selling?

That is a good question! Leo2A6, which is a Leo2A5 with L55 barrel instead of L44 is only available at German, Spanish, Greek, Quatari, (no more in Dutch), Canadian, Finnish and Portuguese Armies. The only which may have to many tanks are the Spanish and the Greek.

57 minutes ago, Militarysta said:

Yes it was our shitty Pz.541 trening munition :/ 

 

In trening munition polish facgory use low-cost propelant charge from 125mm :/ In combat APFSDS-T we used Rheinmettal propelent and Plansee rods. Well catrige is from Germany too...

That confirms my assumption! Although the Polish made ammo is cheaper than the German one the barrel life goes down which at the end costs also money. But that depends on the training rounds fired.

BTW the chart of Polish Armed Forces is very interesting, too. How many tanks are in one armoured cavalry brigade? So, how many guns will be ready to defend 🇵🇱 in 2026?

3 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

The Leopard A4 shot shows a lot of propellant burning in front of the muzzle. This means pretty bad combustion in the loading chamber. That was definitely no Rheinmetall ammo! Can you get info where the round was coming from? Was it Polish self made?

It should look like this

https://images.app.goo.gl/kM4YnW8HiAK89J5e9

On 6/20/2019 at 10:38 AM, Militarysta said:

A few absolutly astonishing photos made by Rafał Mniedło  - press officer form 11 Lubuska Dywizja Kawalerii Pancernej

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Leopard A4 shot shows a lot of propellant burning in front of the muzzle. This means pretty bad combustion in the loading chamber. That was definitely no Rheinmetall ammo! Can you get info where the round was coming from? Was it Polish self made?

6 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

This is Pz87 WE with the D-Tech heavy track skirts

https://images.app.goo.gl/gHpuzf4zXxzQAKSKA

The Pz87 WE is to be recognized by the PERI flap

 

This skirts look different to the old ones.

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

 

 

Panzer 87WE with old skirts (B-technoloy).

 

 

Panzer 87 with old skirts (B-technology)

 

There is no external distinction between heavy skirts of C- and D-technology, they have the same thickness and shape.

This is Pz87 WE with the D-Tech heavy track skirts

https://images.app.goo.gl/gHpuzf4zXxzQAKSKA

The Pz87 WE is to be recognized by the PERI flap

3 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

105mm DM13(L28) APDS vs T-62 from 200 meters(german protection thickness TL graph made for 800 meters).

 

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The DM13 HVAP DS (hyper velocity armour piercing discarding sabot) round was the first nature fired from L7A3 105 mm gun installed in Leopard 1. The perforation limit of this round was 250 mm @ 800m & 0° NATO. This was the standard engagement distance in firing halt with sufficient hit probability against this types of targets.

58 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

Okay, so it is not official. Thanks. The "ceramic composite armor" statement might be inspired from the Wikipedia article.

I can confirm but not prove to you that the description of the OG Panzer is 100% correct and not inspired by Wiki! FYI the heavy track skirts are in D-Tech at all Pz87 and Pz87 WE

1 hour ago, Gun Ready said:

Sicherheitskurve means that above the curve you will get complete perforation, on the curve it may be partial perforation and below you will have no perforation.

 

@Wiedzmin BTW from whom did you got this old stuff of 1975? It was classified secret and filed by BWB KG III 4 (protection referate).

On 5/26/2019 at 10:14 AM, Wiedzmin said:

first part of T-62 trials, 20mm DM43 

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maybe german speaking members could help with term "Sicherheitskurve" ? it's protective thickness curve(min.required thickness to protect from specified type of ammo, speed and angle) or penetration of round curve ? and "sicher/nicht sicher" is really safe/not safe ? 

Sicherheitskurve means that above the curve you will get complete perforation, on the curve it may be partial perforation and below you will have no perforation.

Rheinmetall news: IBD Deisenroth is absorbed by Rheinmetall Protection. 

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/media/editor_media/rm_defence/publicrelations/pressemitteilungen/2019/2019-03-26_Rheinmetall_IBD_Deisenroth_en.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjHl6y05uHiAhXLblAKHcA6DLgQFjAQegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3e5m2Vqd1un2Rz-ssfxgTa

@SH_MM now finally this company is history! Your comment?

3 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

 

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The way I understand this slide, the rubber track could be used for the Commando/Control-platform which may be lighter than the effector-plattform with a main gun (thus maybe allowing it to be light enough to use rubber tracks)

@Alzoc fully agree! Could be a PUMA like vehicle with maybe 4 operators for UGV and UAV. Then the vehicle weight could be 40 tons.

http://imgur.com/gallery/TkK1YpI

This is planned to be only applied for the one common command and control platform (Eine Kommando/Steuerplattform), see also imgur link.