Must Be Spoon Fed

On 9/22/2020 at 11:37 AM, Krieger22 said:

I suppose you must be charmed enough to have never encountered such personalities at the top of any organizational hierarchies. Or Miltwitter.

 

More than a few of us have been published with proper bylines, covering subject matter more relevant to today than a 62 year old tank. We have been there and done that, the difference is that for the most part we weren't so certain of our own intellectual superiority just because we got published someplace for the first time.

The problem is that you people are all bark, but no bite. When I ask to show your claims, you either ignore it or divert topic elsewhere. I could ask for examples of articles which forum members wrote. However, I'm certain you will come up with excuses like "I'm not worthy" or you will bring something similar to Boagrius forum post, text which is full of errors, poorly researched and is more of an opinion piece than anything. Posts of which other forum members were so proud of were full of lazy research and newspaper articles talking only very vaguely about things. Sometimes what people were linking were completely unrelated or even were contradicting their statements! When I asked to give me some information to learn from, nobody could offer anything else than newsites and people were shocked when I said that I prefer paying for a book. Did you knew that there are already plenty of detailed books on F-35? Why nobody had bothered to recommend that? Couldn't it be that nobody had read it?

I even asked complete outsider from philosophers community to check this whole deal out and to tell me if I was being in the wrong here and he didn't find me to be source of problems here. I also found old posts in World of Tank forums from certain fellows here. They were as cringy back then as they are now with "you know nothing". 

However, I did encountered some of those rotten personalities in workplace environment, however it was in more stagnant and backwards organizations. I started raising trouble and they had laid me off with generous payouts(in Europe we have social security). I quickly found job elsewhere as a senior engineer with not only almost double pay, but with company's culture where such nonsense quickly gets you penalized (I was competing against person from inside the company for that place. She was forced to leave the company instead due to her attitude and unethical behavior during this time). It is natural for bad people to get stuck with other bad people, because people who do not deserve it usually just leave such places and find employment where they fit better. It is like me not fitting in here and leaving to look for other communities. 

Well, this is my last messages here. I'm leaving now for good and won't post here anymore. It was not a pleasant environment, however, it did inspired me to take this whole warfare subject more seriously. Most importantly, this site was extremely useful in directing me to key books. I found ''Technology of Tanks'' particularly fascinating and I'm likely to buy printed copy soon to add to my library. By extension, it inspired me to look for similar books and articles which had enabled me to crack quite obscure questions. I had found scores of very interesting articles which speak how well tank has to be armored in order to resist recoil impulse and what are limits up arming a vehicle. Or how increase in ground pressure decreases vehicle performance on various soils. I had found answers to a lot of such obscure questions indirectly thanks to this forum. This is the best I could come up as a goodbye and no doubt you will have your fun mocking people who will not respond.

On 9/22/2020 at 3:08 AM, roguetechie said:

 

Was all of this supposed to make me care that you think I'm a meanie head dumb dumb face?

 

P.s. any "news site" stupid enough to employ you as a writer is... I'd say only good as toilet paper but you're essentially just an "online defense commentator" which is right up there with terms like anal fissures for it's negative connotation to pretty much everyone whose not one of them.

 

Congrats on getting yourself into the exalted camp as such luminaries as Nicholas Drummond and blacktail defense I guess.

 

You know, if you just stopped being so exceedingly stupid this place could be a gold mine for you. But, you and I both know that will never happen.

"Meanie head dumb face"? Keep it going, you had regressed to kindergarten level mentality. 

Do you think THIS is a gold mine? No, you post just bunch of videos and photos or news articles. Rarely you have any insight. Anything you do here is found a lot more efficiently in a book. If I want to go in depth, I go for white papers or very specialized books. This site is only good for very few threads where you provide links to other articles and books. For example, I'm reading ,,Technology of Tanks'' and so far I found it enlightening. However, after reading parts of said book I had come to conclusion that you people are truly allergic to putting any effort into your research, otherwise you would know how absolutely silly and impractical most of proposed designs are in design section. High caliber anti aircraft cannons with immense rate of fire and they are merely air cooled... Lightly armored (under 20 tons) aluminium car with medium velocity anti tank guns...Recoil impulse would shatter turret and hull with prolonged usage, not to mention how uncomfortable firing would be for the crew inside. Out of place technologies like second generation missiles (in first generation environment), futuristic non existent 2000 hp engines in 70-80's level tech. I could go on and on. When it comes to making statements rather than reposting information found elsewhere online, you are not much better than an average enthusiast. 

You also are surprisingly proud of doing nothing constructive with your time. I said that I prefer to read books, everyone here was shocked by that. I had said that maybe you should start writing about military equipment as there is a distinct lack of information of in depth information. This is how I got my name changed...You people are very proud of very little. You have no presence in online communities. Various enthusiasts have reach of millions despite making a lot of errors. Everyone, even Gavins guy writes his own articles, however you guys can't do anything more than laugh at him from safety of your own echo chamber. I had offered you and this forum as a whole to be something more than its own echo chamber with non existent relevance in modern day discussions, however you had rejected this opportunity outright while demeaning everybody else who tries to do something constructive...

The difference between pride and arrogance is that one is proudful of tangible and important achievements in his life while an arrogant person has nothing to show for it when pressed, but still pretends to be a serious and respectable member/community. I don't need to boast or to pretend how knowledgeable I'm people, when they hear of that I do or read what I wrote, they are usually impressed with me. Can you say the same about yourself? 

On 10/3/2020 at 6:51 AM, Eliz said:

No no and no, in war that happened last decade about 1000 man were saved with vests and helmets while about 200 died, had not they had vests those 1000 would have died too.  Face, neck and sides are big problem. 

Around 80% casualties in war is not from direct fire, but fragments, mostly artillery. Full body armor which would provide high levels of protection against firearms in key areas and protection against fragments in all others would drastically lower casualties rate and would make various weapons far less effective. From artillery bombardment to thermobaric weapons. In fact, most high tech body armor out there does exactly that, it looks far less than few loosely connected armored plates which we have today, but are rather full protective body suit. My opinion is validated by most cutting edge development of several nations and I was advocating for that since 2012.

Without any specifics, your opinion is just as valid as my own.

13 hours ago, Dragonstriker said:

 

 

 

On the chance you should return here, reread the quotes excerpted above. You're literally stating that you cannot be bothered learning about the very thing you're asking to learn about. Folks here are getting justifiably annoyed at you saying it's just too much work for you, so they should do the work for you.

 

Furthermore, this is a private forum, so there's no onus on anyone to be "nice" or use their time constructively other than the expectation of the forum owner. Not to put words in @Sturgeon's mouth, but the expectation is clearly stated that users will do the work to understand topics of discussion.

A forum which prides itself on quality, you certainly don't uplive to your standards. Not only do you behave as little children, bullying anyone new and creating a lot of "noise", but also you people were caught multiple times not reading what you post. Boagrius for example quoted an article from AirPowerAustralia without reading it and then ignored that accusation altogether. He did the same thing with many of his other sources which did not correlate well to titles and arguments which he was making nor could he recall a case which I had mentioned from his video. Furthermore, you are also to blame for taking things out of context. 

First quote is about me saying that I will have to do a lot more research. Second quote is about the community being a little bit more productive with their time rather than shitposting most of the time. It was about starting to write defence content of your very own like posting articles to newsites or having your own blog, but I had caught people yet again not reading properly the information with which they operate. Third quote is about me actually doing my research. It is you who put whatever meaning you wish to see. I had asked for sources,  not to be told everything thing by thing. A community member did claim that you guys have vast quantities of information shortlisted for reference and that you know infinitely more than I do. However, when I had asked for any of you to come up even with one good book to read, nobody could offer anything. It speaks volumes. Yes, I know that nobody ought to be "nice". However, I still highlight how immature the behavior of a lot of people here are. A grown man should not behave as a small child, but some of you do. I'm questioning how such people could ever take any high ranking position within industry or military with such behavior as a professional environment rarely allows for such narcissism to exist. I'm quite frankly shocked by the behavior here as I do not interact with such impolite people. 

In the end, I do understand that the cultural differences between me and the others are just too vast. I had decided to leave this forum a month ago. However, it is people here who want me to stay with constant replies and insults. I would say, just ignore me, call me an idiot in order to make yourself feel better and we will be done. Disputing what I had said and then expecting not to get a reply, well...that is how coward would behave. Either lets accept truce to agree to disagree or we might have to continue this futile "discussion" for a lot longer.

18 hours ago, Boagrius said:

- The Navy budget link directly covers the Sidekick weapon bay mod that will give all F35A's and Cs from Lot 15 onwards the capacity to carry 6 AIM120/260 internally. This is not controversial.

On 9/14/2020 at 6:23 PM, roguetechie said:

Yeah, we get it, you want us to do all your work for you. 

 

But we're not going to.

 

Nice try on insisting we write up faq's and etc though.

 

And oh by the way, you finding the competition threads and managing to so badly mangle the intent just goes to show how monumentally fucking defective you are.

 

P.s. yes, I do know a metric fuck ton more than you... But that's just not hard or something to actually be proud of. Even diagonal sushi mightyzuk and lastdingo would be highly disappointed by you, and that truly says worse things about you than anything else I could add.

No, I want you to have self respect and self esteem not tied to acceptance of some extremely obscure, half dead forum, because it sounds really pathetic when a grown man aspires to one day become accepted into an anonymous online community. By becoming a writer, having your own blog and getting publishing deals with some newspapers you could develop as a person. It is not that hard, I just went and asked a person whom I know and he had agreed to publish me, his news site has connections with other news sites and thus I will have a very wide reach just at my first attempt. I had offered to do something as constructive for yourself, because with time, those blog posts and comments have very little staying power or worth in society as a whole. 

As for you lashing out at me so violently and without a solid cause. Well, usually people just project their own insecurities at me. A good example is how you went through threads to attack me and now suddenly it is my fault for merging your outbursts from both threads. I'm sorry for trying to help you. As you say, you know what you are doing and I assume those nicknames are your online friends. It is good that you have at least them.

On 9/15/2020 at 2:35 AM, Boagrius said:

I must admit to being a little hurt that my posts didn't rate more highly with Calicifer. I honestly thought they were masterpieces (replete with high quality links/sources) compared to what you'd get from most other fora. *Sigh* back to the drawing board I guess... 

Well, I have whole forum to fight against. So sorry, but it is easy to forget, especially when you see me coming only once in a week or even more rarely. I was just loaded with work last, this and next month. I also was talking about a different thing, that there isn't any educational content available. A lot of it are just news articles, some official talking about something or someone robotically mentioning all the parts of a tank. Alright, I want to know the differences between various 1'st and 2'nd generation thermal optics between Soviets and Western tanks.  Show me pictures of generated images of both systems side by side. Or how does radar and stealth interact with each other? Those questions are a lot harder to find and there is a distinct lack of people which could explain those things to others. Asking community for anything here was completely fruitless as they either seem to hoard knowledge or don't have anything of value themselves. I had suggested that since people here want to be seen as extremely knowledgeable, they could start writing and publishing those kinds of articles. As people who are talking about defence and who have huge followings are sometimes are a little bit questionable for example Red Effect. However, community here did not wanted to be relevant and you can see results of that for yourself. It seems that they are just content sitting in their own forum and being horrible rather than trying to do something constructive with their time. 

I also want to say that I learned a lot about F-35 when discussing it with the other fellow elsewhere. I can see now how AirPowerAustralia was dishonest in its work and where they had made key mistakes. It also helped me to finally understand modern aircraft in their entirely. By that I mean that I know of all major components and systems and what is important in a fighter plane. However, my view remains the same about this aircraft if you can remember what it was. 

Btw: Even if I did not said it aloud previously, I did read through most of what you had wrote to me (articles). I will eventually finish with the rest. 

Edit: As I'm reading, there are alarmingly more and more links which lead to nowhere. For example, in 6 vs 4 internal hardpoints argument you had attached me Navy procurement budget...In ZOCTS over presents arbitrary features you had attached me an article which talks that every fighter plane has its problems when you named it: "the F35’s aerodynamic characteristics combine the excellent low speed controllability of the Hornet, with the excellent subsonic acceleration of the F16". Another case was when one guy talks that F-35 is just as maneuverable. However, he does not give any specifics and we all at least should know that F-35 can't maneuver as well due to how it is designed, not to mention various other high profile failures to beat legacy fighters in BFM. That is not rebuttal. That is telling me that you know the guy who knows the guy who works on F-35 program and he knows all the details about it and he said that aircraft is... You quoting of AirPowerAustralia is non existent and when you do quote them, you link whole article which talks about entirely different thing than you had presented me in your argument. Also, reading again what they wrote, it seems that time had validated their arguments and conclusions. Later you are attaching link of simulated exercise which does not talk at all about BFM combat. In fact, those loses in that exercise all came from dogfights which only disproves your argument. I'm also confused by how poorly that Su-30MKM pilot handles his plane. He seems to be quite inexperienced and he did three times the same mistake. However, if you had watched that video yourself, you would see an alarming capabilities of TVC from Su-30MKM when it basically turns around and scores a kill shot during the time it took for Super Hornet to recover from a dive and your other article about F-22 does not say much of anything either which would be relevant when it comes to BFM combat. I had read through all your posts together with articles and I must say that it is a highly questionable post. You lack quotes of your claims and where you do provide me with such, it appears that you did not bothered at all to read source material and had quoted rubbish. What you quote as examples or evidence has no correlation at all with ongoing argument with highly misleading headers. You rely mostly on news and promotional articles which are either very generic or serve just to advertize plane's capabilities. Sometimes however you quote articles completely randomly for your points. This is on top of that I did not payed a lot of attention at the beginning of your post, if I would had been critical, I might had found a lot more errors in it. Though, that was a good post, especially at the end. You should had focused more about mentioning the technological edge of F-35 rather than making dubious efforts in discrediting unspecified (no links attached to claims you are discrediting thus you can make up whatever you wish to discredit) source. 

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

Bold of you to assume you have advice worth giving, especially when you are completely tone deaf to what people are saying to you as well as the actual tone of the forum.

Oh, but I do. My points are awfully specific which indicates that I had read something somewhere before. The problem is that I have to talk about really basic stuff to you people. Like that army had integration with artillery branch since WW2 and could call artillery strike on target within minutes. Some people however were surprised to hear that and thought that tying intel to artillery strikes was revolutionary. 

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

Your comments about uav's not being revolutionary is especially funny when you turn around and accuse people of being blindly technocratic.

And how they are funny? I had shown that those capabilities existed since Cold War and that nowadays we do not have much more capabilities than before. Israel was doing the same stuff in its wars that we are considering cutting edge in Ukraine today. Even then, you miss entirety of my point. In most militaries you are not going to find a lot of advanced drones. At most they are doing recconnance, but even then their role is superficial. Only within this decade more serious projects are going to be completed and with increasing military budget and popularity of drones, these things are becoming commonplace. This is why Rheinmetall only now are marketing new anti air solutions to be effective at taking down drones versus to how previously we used missiles 10 times more expensive than a target we are shooting down.

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

The whole point of uav's for the most part right now is to do the things we used to do other ways better, faster, cheaper, with less manpower, much lower latency, much higher certainty, over much larger areas, and In a much more usable and effective way.

This statement is so generic that it is pointless. Whole military is moving towards greater capabilities and efficiency. My point was that drones are taking quite a niche role and so far they were superfluous to most militaries in a sense that they were an afterthought in military procurement and their capabilities were quite minor outside of few notable exceptions. Only now we are seeing greater procurement budgets and attention paid towards drones and within current decades we are going to see drones with far greater combat capacities than we had seen previously. 

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

In that respect, they have been wildly successful almost beyond expectations. Your inability to grock that everyone here is far more aware of their limitations and weak points is not winning you friends nor is it making you come off as anything like intelligent. On the plus side, it is slightly less cringe than your constant talk of being more informed than public officials tasked with decision making and guiding development decisions. You definitely aren't by the way, you need to understand that.

Again, a technocratic belief that public officials should not be accountable to public. I do not share that believe and consider that by obfuscating information they are hiding internal corruption, biases and incompetence. Furthermore, you had provided no concrete examples so far. I had said that drones excel in a small niche of aerial reconnaissance, you however disagreed with me. So I want concrete examples where they were all of that you claimed to be in other spheres too. 

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

A great example is your surprise and wonderment at drones being a great tool in the hybrid warfare toolbox. They're also great in COIN operations other than war and probably most importantly in the role of dealing with gathering ISR and a myriad of other missions involving hostile nations we don't want a shooting war with.

That was one niche at which I did not thought about hybrid war. However, that is quite a niche application and your given examples about intelligence gathering is also quite wrong. Drones are shot down from the skies quite easily and they are incapable of gathering intelligent data over adversary which can actually shot back at you. Hence latest downing of a drone in Iran. Aerial reconnaissance is a niche which I said they excel at, so far I do not see any major points to the contrary. 

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

And herein lies the issue people here have with you. You are falsely under the impression that you are far smarter and more knowledgeable than you actually are. You preach to people who have forgotten more than you'll ever know and chide them about their stances on things you're plainly far out of your depth on.

I can say the same with you. You constantly insult me, often without bothering to tell me why. Only now you are doing that. Furthermore, you do not know how intelligent I think, I'm. Furthermore, from this reply you make yourself look like everything you blame me to be. Seriously: "You preach to people who have forgotten more than you'll ever know and chide them about their stances on things you're plainly far out of your depth on." and you say that I think that I'm clever than anyone else then you say such things without ever backing anything up? All I hear is boasting from you at how high and mighty you all are, however when I see the most sophisticated threads on this forums, they are just plain ridiculous stuff like designing armored car under 20 tons with main battle tank cannon. Or putting second generation missiles on missile design, while vaguely explaining how you can make something better than designers at that time, or casually throwing 2000 hp engine in a design which supposed to feature low tech design.

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

I'm by far one of the least intelligent and well read people here and yet my knowledge is still encyclopedic In comparison with your own. 

Again, you boast of how clever you are compared to me while accusing me doing the same thing.

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

Your comments in this thread pretty plainly show that your own internal ideas of what uav's are supposed to be and do are very divergent from what they actually are. This should have given you pause and made you stop to consider whether you actually know what you think you do instead of triggering you to post wildly laughable admonishments and batshit insane proclamations.

However, military application confirms what I had said. The problem is that you get triggered without fully grasping what I had said.

On 8/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, roguetechie said:

You're either going to actually learn how to be a good poster here or you'll go back to whatever shithole forums you came from. 

 

The choice is yours.

I had chosen that already. And from how often I come here you can see that I will not be staying here. I can say a lot more in response, but if you want to get rid of me faster, then I would recommend just ignoring me. Otherwise it would be pretty cowardly of you to expect a free shot at me when you know I won't be able to defend myself. If however you would choose to ignore me, I will not have further reason reply and this will be my last reply to you. 

Sadly no, such things are not well documented. I had discussion, at least for a little while about F-35 capabilities and I could not find anything about this aircraft in a nicely summarized fashion. Even some basic things are surprisingly difficult to find about this plane. Which is to be expected as it is still new aircraft with a lot of its information tightly guarded. However, failure for you to provide any such information which you had referred to confirms my initial claims and position. I had asked this forum also the same question, but nobody could give me any solid source, only generic newsites or press conferences. You throw around a lot of statements and insults, but have absolutely nothing to back them up with. I did understood eventually that you guys have religious-like obsession with your favorite military equipment and this is why you can't stand critique towards those pieces of equipment which you love. This is why posting here is solely positive and you somehow manage to avoid entire controversy over most controversial high profile military hardware in 30 long thread which is named as "bash thred". This is impressive to say the least.

I also highly doubt about your claim of "quality posting". You had contributed nothing to constructive conversation while pretending to speak from position of superiority. I had seen other people being harrassed here too merely on a basis of them daring to have their own opinion or more precisely - a negative opinion over something. Posts are nothing more than just posting information you found on the internet. Those posts are not high quality posting, but perphaps you do consider that to be high quality posting, throwing a link to information you found somewhere. In my eyes, I had forced users to try harder in trying to disprove me than most of you had tried to in posting high quality material lately. You don't have to lie, I had checked other threads too and the quality of posting present here. While it is perfectly fine not to like me, you should not lie to me. Especially than you yourself had contributed nothing, but a noise to every reply to me ever since I was here. I was not disproven on my claims regarding F-35 despite the massive outrage. Only 1 person here and that was a new guy, previously just reading material here who had brought forth why AirPowerAustralia is not a credible source. However, he did not touched anything in said source or what I had said previously. In fact, when I did my research and had posted high quality post, it was completely ignored despite being the core of initial outrage. That is even sadder is that without me, this forum is pretty much dead. F-35 being the major talking point for any military enthusiast received no replies since me.

I would like you to do something constructive and maybe create quotable FAQ on most common contention points. There are many points which you could do research on, some are easy to disprove like low autonomy, high wing load of F-35 while others needs a lot more research like F-35 maneuverability in a dogfight. You certainly claim that you have all the information at the fingertip. However, that is the use of all that high and mighty information if all you do with it is boosting your own ego? You should try and do something constructive with it like I do in my own life. Since I had joined here, I got publishing deal from one online site to post my own articles. Said newspaper has connection to other newspapers and I will pretty much be publishing to half of Lithuanian audience about military technology and explaining how warfare works. My first article will be about AMX-30. You should too try to be more constructive in your life or here.

On 8/18/2020 at 1:23 AM, Beer said:

Sure the drones have tough life if the opponent has proper AA network BUT lack of the "proper AA coverage" is a very real thing which exists far more often than it doesn't. In fact it's rare when the "proper AA coverage" exists. Even most of the US bases in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan have little to no defence against drones. 

 

Drones are extremely effective tools especially considering their cost compared to the manned aircraft and much longer time they can spend in the air. Also since many drone types are cheap and disposable they can be easily sent to a suicide mission where shooting down the manned aircraft would create political problems. Often it's enough if such drone finds the enemy, it doesn't need to get back home. The rest is job of the artillery or airforce or whomever else. Exchanging a wrecked quadrocopter or small drones like Orlan-M for anihiliating a howitzer battery or an infantry company is a pretty good deal for me and that's what happens over and over again in all current wars. Not speaking at all about the use of strategic assests like MQ-4/RQ-4.

Hmm, I was not considering hybrid warfare seriously. I was thinking more in terms of an official war with major nations clashing with each other. Modern AA systems are insane and would melt all those drones with ease, however they are too expensive to fire at drones. This is why I think that low caliber SPAAG systems would see a return. 

However, I do think that you raised a good point which I did not considered before. Drones play a huge role in a hybrid warfare. 

On 8/18/2020 at 1:23 AM, Beer said:

Just for the record.

 

I appreciate your examples, however some of them only prove my initial point that we need low caliber autocannons to deal with new drone threat. Patriot and other older SAMs are not designed to deal with such threats. Furthermore, I still fail to see how drones were instrumental in your examples. To me it just seem as poor man's improvisation of cruise missiles. How any of those strikes could not be done better with having few cruise missiles in your inventory? In this, drones are just as menacing as cruise missiles from 80's and UAVs of that time. In fact, UAVs existed throughout the cold war, but do we hear about how important they were? They did became the hype in recent years. However, this is due to rise of hybrid warfare where nations do not want to risk lives of their personal.

I find it surprising how oblivious some of a people are here. All you do is insult me and never provide anything of value in critiquing me. My point in this thread was ultimately ignored all together after I went through all the trouble of looking through information recommended to me. Some of people here do nothing else, but insult me merely on a basis that I have different opinion. There are some knowleadgable people here and I did had interesting discussion with them in other threads. 

Boagrius, thank you for your contribution and help. I appreciate your efforts to help me, however information you had provided do not answer my questions. For example, your latest post. It essentially says: "do my own research". This is what I had decided to do since nobody in this forum knows for any good source on aerial warfare which would cover topics in depth. I also do raise a lot more complex questions than the ones which people would like to ask. For example, why F-35 information centric system could not be used as an upgrade program for F-16 and then we could procure more of F-16 to save the money? We need then to investigate where those parts are located in those planes, their physical dimensions, power and other equipment requirements which those systems might have and only then we could answer if F-16 could have same capacity as F-35. It seems that F-16 uses older ARINC-664 & Avionics Ethernet while F-35 uses Fibre Channel. Both are electrical optic cables. So, how little research would give me an answer of why we do not simply upgrade F-16 with same capabilities as F-35? Both are merely just optic cables, any plane can have same bus rate as F-35 if we would replace old wiring in those planes with newest data transfer cables. It just one example of how trying to do your own research does not answer questions which you have. 

Now however I often find non descriptive comparisons or talks about one or other system without a proper comparison. It all comes down to "do your own research". This would put me ahead of even most officials in terms of understanding modern military equipment as you can see that their understanding of a topic is very tenuous and generic. They use wide generalisations, they can't give practical examples of how new weapons system is better and why. It also would take a lot of time, you casually offer to do something which is neither easy or fast. Making FOI request or finding relevant cross information takes a lot of free time and unless you are jobless, you can't casually just do that on everything you read or think. 

On 8/17/2020 at 9:55 PM, Sturgeon said:

 

If you're serious about this, then you'll find no home on this forum, certainly.

Yes, I can see that people here have a different mindset than me. A lot of people seem to absolutely hate any critique and negativity here directed to military equipment. That is fine, it is your forum and your environment. If people would keep themselves from replying to me, I will be on my way quicker.

I do however find your design of vehicles to be fascinating. If I will ever have time to design my own vehicle or piece of equipment, I will come here to ask for feedback. 

On 8/17/2020 at 11:33 PM, roguetechie said:

You somehow missed the part of the war where an entire Ukrainian division got localized then annihilated by a massive cross border artillery barrage apparently...

 

Your shit takes are the shittiest takes.

That is basically like...any modern combat since cold war. Replace word: ''drone'' with a recon team with a radio set and you will have a same thing. I would argue that similar capabilities existed since WW2 as artillery barrages and infantry collaboration had achieved quite high standard at the end of WW2. Drones in this case do not provide anything revolutionary in terms of capabilities, if we would use any other system in its place we would receive the same results. It is also completely superfluous as drone in that case did not provided something which more conventional system could not do just as well. It however is an improvement over our existing capabilities. However, outside of few exceptions, most high end drone projects are still being developed and I predict that it is during 20's to 30's when we are going to see a serious rise in drone warfare. A good indication of that are all those high profile drone systems being developed like Poseidon or X45 series developments, Tanaris, ACV-30 Korkut. However, my point was that in modern combat drones do not take a serious role. They are superficial in modern warfare and outside of some niche roles, militaries across the globe either do not have much of a drone inventory and can do perfectly without them or they do have large drone inventory, but most of them are small reconnaissance drones. There are notable exceptions however, but an exception does not make a rule. Examples which were provided was against an adversary without basic capabilities like air monitoring capabilities and defense. I do however did not considered their use in hybrid warfare where their role is a lot greater and they serve as an improvised replacement for more capable platforms. 

Quote

And there we go, as beer has so ably pointed out, calcifiers seems completely unaware of what drones are for and just how amazingly successful they've been.

 

If your not even aware of what their place is on the battlefield, you probably shouldn't be commenting about them in such an attempted authoritative fashion.

I could offer same advice and to you. You seem to be awfully eager to judge me without even bothering to understand what I'm saying or to fully read all my comments in a same thread. However, his comment did not disproved anything I had said. He had even proven partly of what I was saying. As for whatever a person should have right to express himself. Well, nobody knows everything. Top officials also make a lot of mistakes and poor judgement calls. Sometimes I'm astounded by stupidity of those people due to statements they make on media. Your view is very technocratic however and I find this forum to be very traditionalist in terms of unwavering support of ongoing developmental efforts and people do have a strong tendency to attack or dislike anyone daring to critique the establishment. In our case it would be government, research teams, military, projects. 

I also believe that a lot of hate coming my way is at least partly unwarranted. I do support same projects like F-35. I do think that drones are the future. Our views are different only on some more complex and niche topics like: Do drones provide significant combat value in conventional war environment? Would a properly set up defense of Mantis system would negate all drone activity all together? However, my highly critical outlook on those subjects do make me a target. I do understand that not all communities enjoy more negative and thought provoking people. However, I do think that this forum needs to change as it will die out as all the other similar hardcore forums had died out. It is happened even now, take a look at how many new threads were created (there are very few new threads popping out). Take a look at how active and serious those people are (most veterans are content with posting low effort content posts, no analysis, no insightful comments, no opinions), forum is already becoming a vegetable if it isn't one yet. I also saw other new guy being viciously attacked and harassed for smallest, unspecified mistakes. Not only you have no new blood coming in, but you also actively attacking anyone new by default who do not fit into your very specific mindset which you had set for this forum. Without new blood you will eventually die out.

This is the issue. I should not do my own research. All research should be already be done, well referenced and presented for ease of reading. I will have to try books on aviation, I was expecting some recommendation from there as I much prefer just to pay an author for their work rather than going through the hassle myself. Books are my prefered form of information and they had worked wonders for me in the past for land vehicles.  If I do use other sources, they often are similarly vague about details and sometimes present questionable claims out of nowhere like with F-16. This is why I wondered if there is any website which has those analyses, articles and comparisons, because most of them present vague and general data which does not help me even if it comes from reputable source.

On 8/12/2020 at 5:25 AM, roguetechie said:

 

I'm not gonna lie, this is a way stupider take than your comments in the f35 thread.

 

Not only does beer disagree with you but the Ukrainian army does too. So do the syrians, the Iraqis, the afghanis, the houthi and a fuck ton of other people too on account of them getting their shit wrecked repeatedly by drones of a shockingly wide variety!

 

How the fuck have you managed to miss the last 2 decades?

By being realistic and following what is actually deployed in a field. Combat is still completely dominated by conventional armament. Drones there are either experimental and very few in number or completely absent. The only niche where they exist in force is in aerial reconnaissance. 

I had read again my previous messages and wording there isn't clear or correct. I had in mind that drones are either quite niche and are limited in their use. In addition, most combat roles are still done by more conventional assets. This was a very general comment meant to be taken in most generic terms. First, what you are showcasing here IS cutting edge development of only one nation. Secondly, how much drones are procured and put into service across the globe. Most of what is proccurred are small reconnaissance variants. Outside of notable exception of Predator, most nations procure negligible UAVs if they even include them in their arsenal in more than a token fashion. UAVs like Ravens, Pumas are go to types of UAVs when it comes to drones.That was my bad for using imprecise wording, this is why some folks had jumped on me. When I was talking about them, I primary meant that generally most militaries do no have sufficient air coverage. Cheap, low capabilities stationary guns will see a massive comeback as nowadays they are crucial in protecting all assets from drone reconnaissance via shooting them out of sky. Due to lack of proper AA defenses, we are seeing BUK's missiles being used in taking down 10 times cheaper target or massive Ukraine's ammunition storrages being destroyed due to UAVs simply because there are no effective AA coverage. 

I had watched videos attached here, they both are the same, just different presentations. It did provided some interesting insight in cutting edge warfare evolution. 

Hmmm, that does not help much. I do read individual articles, but they are not what I'm looking for in a sense that they quote a lot of numbers which I can't take into context properly. Is it good or bad? How it compares to competition? What are key aspects of this piece of technology? How useful it is or how useful it is considered. It is like calling stealth plane as stealthy. Alright, what are differences when engaging enemy SAM sites? How stealthy it is by comparison to older aircraft? It does not give necessary context to properly understand how stealthy is. It does not compare stealth cross section nor directional stealth cross section. It is like they would give you bunch of numbers of how stealthy it is at best and say it is stealthy. For example, you said to read what you gave me for starters. Multi-spectrum link shows exactly why such information is quite useless. It talks about F-35 having much broader spectrum. Literally in that video speaker constantly uses such words like "much wider" and how I'm supposed to understand differences between F-35 and F-22. How much wider it is? Is it a big deal? Or officials tend to parrot about how F-35 have information centric warfare suit and how good it is supposedly. Alright, but F-16 models also have that. So wouldn't it be better just procure more of F-16 if that is such a big deal? A lot of sources do not go into proper detail and showcase why one system is better than another. Most articles are just an alphabetical list of features and capabilities of an aircraft with little actual hard analysis of why it is precisely better than its competition. Articles do tend to give similar kind of information, they will talk about capabilities without putting things into context nor highlighting what is important. For them everything is important and thus it is impossible to understand what to look for specifically. What I'm looking for most likely would either be a book or I will have to write an investigative analysis myself. I tend to learn best by doing it myself.

You have to read into what they are saying as they are governmental watchdog which means that they will attack anyone and anything for their failures and as we had established, nearly no large scale project goes without multiple parties screwing up. They will critique every project and it is important to read into why they are critiquing it, because there is always room for improvement. They do not seriously propose to cancel project nor they push for some other competing projects. Every large project will have countless flaws. F-22 IS very expensive which they had pointed out. Same critique was used and in F-117 scandal, but aircraft had proved to be cost efficient with time. I went through entire prototype testing report as suggested by another fellow forum reader. Even with F/A-18 there were dozens of major issues which anyone could had picked on. Govermental watchdog should b e considered as a dog, constantly barking at everything they see no matter of context. 

On 8/2/2020 at 5:36 AM, Boagrius said:

Actually they absolutely do, you just didn't read them properly: 

- My first link clearly specifies a proposed fleet of 50 Raptors and 36 (heavily) upgraded F111's precisely as I said. The RAAF dismissed the proposal primarily on the grounds that the F22 was not suited to its needs, unavailable for export and entirely unaffordable to operate. Meanwhile, the obsolete, orphan F111 fleet had long-since become a maintenance hog that could not provide enough capability to justify its existence.

- APA's anti-F35 stance can be clearly traced back to their early (ridiculous) bid to directly profit from the AIR6000 program as the prime contractor. They are about as trustworthy and "independent" on this issue as an alcoholic running an AA meeting.

- The quotes I posted (from actual experts) are also readily available at my second link. You can find them here if you take the time (p42 onwards).

- The "ZOCT" is demonstrably ridiculous. A high-school level understanding of Science will tell you that displaying characteristics like an aircraft's kinematic, sensor and signature reduction performance in a binary table is not a valid way to present the relevant data because they are not binary variables.

 

Furthermore, the table itself is misleading, incomplete and fundamentally not connected to a rigorous or objective assessment of aircraft capability whatsoever.

Once again, real experts have pointed this out already.

You are right, I did not read it correctly, mostly because it was a lot of information and without linking a specific page, I would have to go through hundreds of pages myself. Thank you for your reply, I will make sure to read it and investigate it myself at a later date. I also believe it to be ridiculous that they had proposed to go for F-22. Now it is clear to me why these people in your video were commenting about procuring F-22 which to me appeared quite silly. It was because Air Power Australia had raised this question. I had watched video fully before and to me it appeared that they dismissed them out of hand without properly addressing issues which they had raised. However, after reading document which you had attached, they do address it in 42 page and beyond. Now when I have context for that video and that proposal, I do agree with you.

I want to ask you if you can recommend me a source to learn about modern jet fighters. I do understand basics, but more advanced, technical details are beyond me and I would enjoy website or a book who explains in details concept behind air warfare. My focus were always more on ground vehicles as to me they were a lot more intuitive to understand. I even got a partnership deal with a local website to publish articles about warfare, because I was so outraged by nonsense being printed for public. Hopefully, I will be able to write in the future about development and procurement decisions of most modern jet fighters as I'm comfortable speaking about tanks.

I had read report on F/A-18 development. I can state with certainty that F/A-18 did not experienced nearly as many problems. There were only several important areas where F/A-18 had struggled during its prototyping stage and during review process and still when aircraft was undergoing development, most of those issues were fixed according to contractors. Cost overruns also were 10 times lower than of F-35. Report was more concenred about long term prospects like cost growth due to struggling contractors to deliver more complex equipment than actually presenting issues with an aircraft. Here is conclusion of all problems presented within F/A-18 prototype. As you see, majority of them are either potentially fixed during release of report or are unrelated to development of aircraft itself, like lack of AMRAM missile to increase aircraft‘s deadliness.

Acceleration threshold not reached – fixed with minor modifications during prototyping.

Range is short of Navy expectations – Fixed through lowering weight down by 341 pounds back to approved specifications. Changes were made by 123‘th produced aircraft.

Higher than anticipated drag – Changes were made during prototyping stage to address problem and solve underwhelming performance of aircraft, results are not stated in the document.

Lower engine thrust – It is unknown if problem exists, more testing required.

Sparrow missiles reduces F/A-18 survivability – Irrelevant critique. All aircrafts need to light up target with radar to use said missile.

Sidewinder missile capabilities – Irrelevant critique. Enemy‘s ability to evade new missile is a separate issue from plane‘s design.

Harm deficient – Irrelevant critique. Aircraft‘s armament is a separate concern from the design of aircraft itself.

Advanced systems planned for F/A-18 slow in development - Noncooperative target recognition capability which would enable the pilot to identify all known aircraft are to be developed sometime later in 1980. Critique can‘t be compared to systems late on F-35 who are not ready even after 5 years being late.

Late aircraft deliveries slowed flight testing – Deliveries of aircraft were late by 2 months, setting entire program back up to 3 months. Problem was that Northrop‘s plant had underestimated production challenges of F/A-18. They had estimated 67,500 production hours per developmental aircraft, but it actually took 93,000 and 147,000 per aircraft. Contributing problems were poor plant layout, required major redesign of the F/A-18 and recurring problems with fit, access and leakage of plane‘s fuel cells.

Critique is legitimate, but largely irrelevant. 2 months delays are acceptable and can‘t be compared to delays experienced by F-35. F-35 experiences over a month of production delays which proves that scale of problems with F-35 is in a different league all together.

https://www.industryweek.com/technology-and-iiot/article/22028435/lockheedmartin-f35s-full-rate-production-to-be-delayed-up-to-13-months-longer

Starter deficiency – Engine starter had failed during test flight. Analysis had indicated complex problem leading to starterts being unable to reach specified 7,800 hours lifespan. 500 to 1000 hours were more realistic for existing starters. New contractor were given a job of designing new starter, expected delay 1-2 years.

Finally, a fair critique of an aircraft, but fairly minor one. The only impact it has on development of aircraft is more expensive maintenance.

Oil temperature exceeds allowable limits – Oil temperature exceeds allowed limits and puts operating limits of aircraft. Redesign of oil cooling system is being considered. A fair issue with the aircraft.

Air-condition system does not provide adequate cooling – Installation and operation difficulties had led to redesign of a system. This redesign is done and manufacturer claims that new system exceeds design requirements.

F/A-18 Cost growth – There are many reasons behind cost growth, but in short aircraft price had changed from predicted 15.9 million per aircraft to 17.4 million per aircraft. It is around 9% growth, acceptable margin of error, by comparison price of F-35 had almost doubled.

https://nation.time.com/2012/07/09/f-35-nearly-doubles-in-cost-but-you-dont-know-thanks-to-its-rubber-baseline/

Radar production problems could have long-term cost impact – Hughes was losing money on radar production due to underestimating complexity of hybrid radars. Producer was 5 radar units short, but it had no impact in short term with potential cost increase later on.

Rest of cost related issues – Article speculates that aircraft might face possible further issues, because contractors are not monitored. It further speculates that being an export success could alleviate those problems which we with hindsight know that it did.

Review of F/A-18 concludes by saying that design-production cost analysis has too many unknown variables to be a reliable tool in estimating costs. It predicts further cost growth for aircraft and recommends delaying full scale production until previously analysed issues are fixed. Delay caused by all those issues were of few years. Review of F/A-18 development had proved that this aircraft had faced a lot less problems than F-35 faces. If there any similarities in problems encountered between these two aircrafts, F-35 takes similar problem to entirely new level. 2 months delay in production are stretched to year long delays. Cost growth of 10% is multiplied to 100% cost increase with F-35. After reading literature presented to me by forum members I thereby conclude that my initial opinion on F-35 was correct. F-35 is a lemon, its fifth gen capabilities were so delayed that when it comes out, it is not nearly as potent as it was ought to be. It cost had ballooned out of proportion. Furthermore, it continues to face never ending design problems. Within F/A-18 were potentially none of just few Category A design problems. F-35 has 9 of them half a decade after mass production together with almost a thousand of smaller issues which still are ought to be fixed. F-35 will need at least another 5 years and new serial production batch to mature into worthwhile fighter. This proves that my linked article in Air Power Australia was correct in its analysis, F-35 represents high risk investment which would take a decade after its completion to mature into platform worth investing into. Alternative investment options were proven to be superior.

Overall analysis of cost growth. Major source of cost growth seems to be inflation. Lack of consistent cost analysis tools as repot had indicated is a major cause of incorrect cost analysis. It turns out that designing and producing aircraft takes a while and we still did not figured out that during that time inflation will cause significant growth in overall costs. Secondary problem are that key contracts fail to properly make cost-analysis and production analysis and impede progress of entire program. We had seen this happen with Northrop. Third major factor behind the cost is lack of commitment from government. If investment would be set in stone, contractors would not have to account for potential risks and thus could drive costs down. Government needs to commit into procuring certain quantity of aircrafts. Furthermore, changing requirements and unrealistic goals cause massive delays in key areas which are expensive. Requirements should be set in stone. Such programs require director to oversee entire process who would be responsible in keeping design changes to a minimum and would focus on as quick and cheap delivery of a first serial production variant. Further improvements could be delivered with further production models as A,B,C…etc models. In addition, contractors need governmental oversight as often they fail to properly assess cost and time requirements for their own contracts. This causes costly delays for an entire program and inevitable costs revisions for contractors. Supervision should be tighter and allowed estimates more generous in order to control overall time frame of development better.

On 7/28/2020 at 7:09 PM, OnlySlightlyCrazy said:

Unfortunately I won't be able to respond at length, since I need to head into work in just a few minutes. Broadly, most of the issues I outlined with the "Legacy" fleet are publicly available, including from POGO.

https://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2012/05/pilots-arent-guinea-pigs-ground-the-f-22-until-dangerous-oxygen-problem-resolved.html

and

https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2018/03/pentagons-21st-century-icarus/

"Breathing problems aboard the Navy’s main fighter, the F-18, spiked from 57 in 2012 to 125 in 2016. The breathing gear on the Navy’s F-18s and T-45s “is inadequate to consistently provide high quality breathing air,” the Navy itself concluded last June. “The net result is contaminants can enter aircrew breathing air provided by OBOGS and potentially induce hypoxia.” The Navy flubbed its probe into a series of F-18 oxygen-related crashes that killed four pilots, a Navy-commissioned NASA report, ordered by Congress, concluded in September." And, yes, the 2nd article includes the fact that F-35As are also having platforms - but this is exactly my point; all platforms are dealing with problems like this. I'm sure you can find sources from your NGO of choice for the structural problems with the Eagle or any of the other problems I've listed.

Regarding the Viper stuff, the F-16 is a very mature and relatively simple platform, so I wouldn't say the issues are as severe as the F-35A's, which isn't surprising. They're mostly to do with the fact that the majority of the Blk 30 fleet is using mech-array radars as far as I'm aware, which is about as useful as a knife in a gunfight. 

I won't really dispute that there is a technological debt on F-35 - the fact that it was developed prior to massive advances in computing power and metallurgy means it's avionics and engine need some love, for example. I instead dispute that it's severe or unusual - the fighters as they stand are the best multirole in the sky, bar none, and the level of rework and continuing development they're receiving isn't so much a sign of malfeasance or incompetence as it is a normal and frankly healthy part of keeping fighters on the bleeding edge of performance.

Here is a problem with logic of your argument. Most of legacy fighters had some problems. Some of them still do. You attribute failure of one sub-system, oxygen supply system failure to properly work on some extreme conditions as a failure of fighter program. You use this as a proof that previous generation aircraft had suffered and suffer same amount of problems as F-35 despite that problem persist through all types of aircraft where this module is present. Then you use this 1 case to argue that 13 or something problems like that on F-35 are not more severe. Do you understand why I disagree with you on this stance? You dismiss my claim of F-35 being a problematic airplane, because other fighter planes had and still have issues. You link just 1 issue and consider it to be equivalent to train wreck of a program which F-35 is. I think that you are not taking into account differences in scale of these two examples.

On 7/30/2020 at 3:23 PM, Gripen287 said:

No it doesn’t. No F-35 model has any CAT 1A deficiencies at present. Are you surprised to learn that POGO and the media either don’t bother to differentiate CAT 1A from 1B deficiencies (the program office’s metrics) or use the Air Force’s definition of CAT 1 that is a lot broader and includes less serious deficiencies than those that represent a serious risk to the aircraft? 

 

Are you purposefully trying to conduct an impossible analysis to justify your preconceived notion that the F-35 is crap? Can you go back in time and apply today’s level of oversight and risk averseness to legacy programs?
 

I’ve already given you more of my time than you appear to deserve. You don’t seem to have realistic expectations or a realistic frame of reference. So rather than submit a few hundred FOIA request hoping to get that nugget of releasable info that will surely, surely change your mind, I’m going to enjoy the rest of my day. 

 

 

So, why they are saying that F-35 has 9-13 Category A defects while others are being fallaciously downgraded to Category B defects? Is there an essential difference between Category 1A and 1B deficiencies?

Quote

The F-35’s problems include 13 Category 1 deficiencies. Such problems “may cause death or severe injury; may cause loss or major damage to a weapon system; critically restricts the combat readiness capabilities of the using organisation; or results in a production line stoppage according to the US Air Force’s (USAF) definition

I'm not an aircraft engineer, but in my eyes it is pretty serious regardless of further categorization on how your aircraft is going to crash. It seems that you are missing a forest for the trees here.

I'm also uncertain why you said that no such defects exists when in my previously provided source, there are plenty of such defects on a list as late as 2020. I will quote again said source: 

https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2020/03/f-35-design-flaws-mounting-new-document-shows/

Quote

Are you purposefully trying to conduct an impossible analysis to justify your preconceived notion that the F-35 is crap? Can you go back in time and apply today’s level of oversight and risk averseness to legacy programs?

My analysis is quite simple, there are still plenty of Category A problems in F-35 aircraft despite it being half a decade into full scale production. I'm not sure why you are so up in arms about it, it is piece of machinery. This project was mishandled. It is not as good as promised. That is fine, no need to take F-35 program as a personal failure.

Quote

Air Power Australia is neither an official source or from 2020.

I have quoted few more sources, namely POGO after that. POGO uses official documents, this is why I had said that if you deny such source as legitimate one, you might as well deny Apollo 11 landing. It uses JSFPO Deficiency Report Metrics or  Defense Budget Materials - FY2021. This information is released by the government and denying that POGO does not know what it is talking about is no longer possible. We then reach the stage that we either accept that official budget reports passed to congress are either correct, or you have to directly tackle information there. So far, this community only talks the talk, but I'm yet to see much substance in other people arguments. Seeing for example how Air Power Australia is being laughed at and all sources provided there fail to show why they are laughed at all, only how solid they are, being able to present their case at the highest level possible, I'm left confused of hostility towards me or APA (Air power australia). People here strike me as anti-intellectual, who prefer obscurantism over true debates. I merely want to force an issue on this point, because people here seem to be awfully ignorant of F-35 flaws and struggles (fellow forum member was completely unaware that F-35 had plenty of Category A defects even in 2020). While maybe I should not had presented F-35 in such a negative light to the community which is not used to that kind of critical thinking, now it is little too late to change my attitude.  

https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2020/03/f-35-design-flaws-mounting-new-document-shows/

https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2019/11/deceptive-pentagon-math-tries-to-obscure-100-million-price-tag-for-f-35/

Boagrius, thank you for bringing this to my attention. Could you please help me with other links which you had offered? You had said that their contribution was laughed out of the room once again and presented massive document about F-35 acquisition. Which part of this document you are referring to? I could find only very vague references by skimming the article. I also think that you had linked a wrong article in your first reference. First link shows that they are advocating mixed fleet of F-35 with F-111 which rather speaks quite highly of them to be able to reach a realistic compromise. I had watched attached video and table was dismissed out of hand, I'm surprised that it was submitted in its current form, but I could not find the quote in the video which you are presenting. In fact, outside of vague comments about inaccuracy of said data, there was very little said further. That is not good source to show why Air Power Australia is as you say. I had looked at all of your sources and they do not support what you say in your comment. 

12 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

 

Feel free to show you are just pretending to be retarded and actually cite these 'official' sources.

I already did previously in this thread. 

Quote

So in your clearly learned opinion how would you rate the F-14? Yeah, you might say sticking TF30s in the A-model birds was a "small problem."  Only something like 375 or so TF30 A models made into the sky to try and kill their crews for staring at the throttle the wrong way. 

 

Every single Super Bug that will likely ever fly has gigantic, toed-out pylons because of unanticipated store separation issues. 

 

It's not even clear if your criticism is with issues due to specific engineering decisions that are liable to occur in any new aircraft program, let alone three as with the F35s, or with the general configuration of the aircraft. To the latter possibility, why is it even useful to compare the F-35 to the F-22, Su-57, or J-20? They all have very different design criteria, different missions, and fight in different organizations. I bet you're fun discussing WWII armor too. 

 

And like, dude, Kopp was trying get F-22s for Australia. Have you noticed that APA stopped trying to stir shit up after F-22 production ended in 2012? 

 

I can't comment on F-14. I knew it had a lot of issues in the past, but how they do compare with F-35, I'm not sure. I have critique in both aspects, from design of an aircraft to its engineering problems. Aircraft does not excel at any role and it is painfully mediocre for fifth generation aircraft in any niche. From technical standpoint, endless delays, cost overruns, critical errors and countless smaller issues with F-35. My point isn't that this does not happen with other aircraft, but that the scale of those things in F-35 is way out of proportion compared to previous projects. A good example, people do mention that there were some issues in the past and with other aircraft. For example, you had mentioned few of them yourself, but by comparison, F-35 currently has 9 such issues which can cause loss of an aircraft. It is well into aircraft's lifespan and serial production. Considering that it had 5 whole years to work out those issues after its official finish line, that is little bit unfair to compare problems which this aircraft has to prototypes of previous aircrafts which you had directed me to read.

Btw: I'm still reading sources which you had provided. You said to google a lot of things, but I obviously can read only one of all sources you had offered me. They are bloody big and for the most part, they have little correlation to what I'm saying. If there is any particular piece of information which you feel I should read, I will be glad to read it.

35 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

 

I was just thinking this felt like I took a time machine back to 2012-2014. Just for future reference, expect people to treat you like an idiot when the first thing you do is shit on the carpet with ancient debunked misinfo.

I'm yet to see how said information is debunked. Even official sources in 2020 say that aircraft is crap. I will look into deeper if there is a an equal comparison between troubles which previous aircrafts can they be compared in terms of scale and severity. So far from an overwhelmingly emotional response I received, I feel that this is solely emotional matter of touching piece of engineering to which people are emotionally attached. Otherwise, flaws within F-35 would not had been a surprise for people here and they would know that this aircraft constantly receives harsh criticism. 

I'm also reading information which other members had provided and so far it is inaccurate. I read about F-18A prototypes and developing woes it had. There are a lot of various problems there, but a lot of them being about aircraft not performing up to scratch. Some entries are particularly curious as minor modification fixes for example F-18A acceleration problem quite easily despite officials responsible for commenting on it were baffled and made up pathetic excuses like "it will barely ever need to do that anyways". I had found that to be hilarious.

It would be more difficult however to track down how many of those problems persisted after aircraft had entered serial production. Then another part is unrelated information about missiles not performing as they should. Then there are some downright questionable entries about missiles having to be guided by plane's radar and that is supposed to be design flaw within an aircraft. I knew that all prototypes have plenty of small little problems which need to be fixed before vehicle or aircraft enters serial production and quite often, not all of those flaws are fixed. The hardest part is comparing scale and severity of those flaws and how smooth development and introduction of previous generation of aircraft were compared to F-35.

I had investigated that claim and it seems to be a rumor which was started by that site. 

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4373897

As far as I could find they are referring to wing AESA system.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/sukhoi-su-35/

Though, picture does not state if a radar is AESA or PESA. 

Thank you for your sources. I will read them and maybe write something tomorrow. I'm also busy now working, but I just can't focus and try to do anything than the work I'm supposed to do.

But just to be clear what I'm saying in order not to talk past each other:

1) I claim that F-35 is a lemon. To me it means that this platform is overly delayed, has mediocre performance which you would expect from fifth generation plane and possesses more than usual flaws which will need to be fixed in a future. This is to comparison of what you would expect compared  to other similar projects.

2) I claim that F-35 has more inherent problems than it should at this point. (This is the point which we are discussing)

3) I agree that F-35 is currently the best plane available on the market. However, to me F-35 is the best simply, because it is the only readily available fifth generation fighter which can be readily purchased. You can't proccure F-22 or Su-57 and those planes are a lot more specialized. F-35 is a lot more flexible aircraft which can do a lot of roles, but it does not excel at any of those roles. It also falls short in performance as fifth generation aircraft. In my eyes, such aircraft is perfect for export. I do not disagree with you on this point and I want to make my position clear to avoid any further misunderstandings. 

Quote

What do you expect? What value, even if only entertainment value, do you think you've added? All you've done is trot out "arguments" from nearly a decade ago, or more, and slapped some CYA language over them lest someone hold you to the implications of advocating for those positions. Are you even aware of the rebuttals to the Kopp/Sprey drivel? I suggest you take a week or two to catch up on the Chip Burke debates/testimonials and the wealth of information and context here before getting back to us with a comparative analysis informed by a modicum of understanding of the compromises inherent in fighter aircraft design and the trajectory of air combat. 

I highly doubt that those people have anything relevant to say in regards to my initial critique of said aircraft. You should had taken a look to what I had quoted as many of those things are relevant even today. Furthermore, I had revitalised this thread and an actual discussion might start out of it. That is a lot more valuable than posting memes or pictures of an aircraft. 

I did no such thing. On the contrary, I had asked to know more about what he had said. I also had argued that no other aircraft had as many defects and problems as F-35. I'm awaiting now for his response on that. Furthermore, I had discussed about reliability of those sources and had said that if you question official budget reports and tell me that it is unreliable or false information, then you are going into conspiratorial territory. I did not stated nor suggested that he does that nor anybody here. I'm defending legitimacy of sources which I had quoted and I try to show why they must be accepted as legitimate. Cherry picking information is most typical form of delusion where person just accepts positive information about something and ignores everything negative. This makes person's view on something extremely bias. Person becomes incapable of looking at things critically. I do not imply nor accuse anyone of doing cherry picking here specifically right now. However, I do say that if you want to be honest about F-35 you have to accept all sources, good or bad. So far I get a vibe that people prefer to ignore any information which is negative. I will be glad to defend information which I had presented if someone would want to take a crack at it. POGO's source would be a good start and I will be glad if OSC could prove me wrong on this. This would be especially easy as POGO had provided very precise information on amount of defects existing even in current model of F-35 and we could compare the number of defects on any other serial production legacy fighter. 

Also, if you would bother reading my comments properly, you would know that I had explained and admitted that F-35 is the best aircraft on the market three times already and you still did not catched that. Could you please behave more professionally, because to me you are just tiring and annoying.