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General artillery, SPGs, MLRS and long range ATGMs thread.


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Additional information about Dana M2 for Ukraine. The article quotes ukrainean sources including official military standards and the MOD deputy. 

https://www.armadninoviny.cz/houfnice-dana-m2-nasazeni-na-ukrajine-do-deseti-hodin.html

 

In short. For guaranteed destruction of a point target by unguided ammo at a range of 20 km it is statistically needed 540 rounds (with CEP50 being 130 meters at 20 km - and 460 meters at 40 km). For 2S3 or D20 it is even more because they need rocket assisted round to reach such distance and that is said to be 25% less accurate (675 rounds needed). 

 

They compared time needed to fire 90 rounds on the target by a battery of six guns. According to the article it is 45 minutes for 2S3 Akaciya, 35 minutes for 2S19 Msta-S and 25 minutes for Dana M2. 

 

Then they compare price of a given task (the said destruction of point target at 20 km) by ammunition produced in Ukraine (explicitely stated that imported ammo is up to twice more expensive). The result of the calculation was 675 thousand USD for 2S3, 620 thousand for 2S19 and 615 thousand for Dana M2. 

 

The Ukrainean media also states that the fire-data from the new Dana M2 FCS are around 30-35% more accurate than for the 2S19 in service. 

 

They also state that the main advantage of Dana M2 is its operational and strategical mobility. They say it is able to reach on its own any place in Ukraine in 10 hours which is completely impossible with tracked vehicles. 

 

The MOD deputy also confirms that currently Ukraine isn't able to produce 155 mm ammo hence why such guns are at the moment out of question but the development of 155 mm SPH Bogdana nevertheless continues.

 

The last and very interesting although unconfirmed information is that part of the production will be done entirely in Ukraine and that Ukraine will probably buy also a license for Tatra trucks production. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Beer said:

The article quotes ukrainean sources including official military standards and the MOD deputy. 

Or in other words, ukrainian propaganda... Take everything with a grain of salt. 

For example, the data about the rate of fire of different guns is a blatant lie. For a single 2S19, sustained rate of fire is 100 rounds in the first hour (official data from manual!)... For a 6 gun battery, its 300 rounds in 30 minutes... thats far higher than the pathetic 90 they require. Even the good old Akatsia is capable of firing 75 rounds/hr. Again, official data from manual. 

And I highly, HIGHLY doubt the claim that the FCS is 30-35% more accurate. 

 

Dont get me wrong, Im sure that the modernized Dana is a very nice piece of equipment. I just dont believe what the ukrainian officials say, telling the truth is not their virtue... I even have questions about their claim to be able to produce their own ammo...

And the license built Tatra trucks... Well, that means only one thing, Kraz plant is dead, and they cant produce anything on their own.  

 

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KrAZ is probably indeed dead. I saw some time a go somewhere that they produced something like ten trucks in the last year. Same applies for the Artem company producing 155 mm ammo. They went bankrupt according to the media reports. 

 

Regarding the rate of fire, there is no more information what was the specific task calculated. For sure they counted not only the simple fire alone. Otherwise of course also Dana M2 can fire many more ammo as well (for six vehicles it's 216 ready rounds in 9 minutes). 

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56 minutes ago, Beer said:

Otherwise of course also Dana M2 can fire many more ammo as well (for six vehicles it's 216 ready rounds in 9 minutes). 

Yes, thats exactly 4 rpm. Slightly higher than 2S3M(3.5). But the Msta is hard to beat (7-8) with the mechanism the Dana has. There is a video on youtube that shows it firing, loading time is around 13-14 seconds, so I think the maximum can be around 5 rpm. Similar to the 2S5 Giatsint (5-6) 

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1 hour ago, heretic88 said:

Yes, thats exactly 4 rpm. Slightly higher than 2S3M(3.5). But the Msta is hard to beat (7-8) with the mechanism the Dana has. There is a video on youtube that shows it firing, loading time is around 13-14 seconds, so I think the maximum can be around 5 rpm. Similar to the 2S5 Giatsint (5-6) 

 

Dana has maximum 5 rpm, and sustained 4 rpm. And yes, I know the video. Also the video of Msta-S ;) 

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8 hours ago, Beer said:

by ammunition produced in Ukraine (explicitely stated that imported ammo is up to twice more expensive).


Imported ammo also probably has higher quality control than anything Ukraine can produce right now, so I take this with a grain of salt. 

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   More about Dana purchase by Ukraine

https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/1752147.html

Quote

   The Ministry of Defense planned to purchase the Dana self-propelled guns at an inflated price.

 

   2 years ago, the company Excaliburarmy offered an SPG for 812 thousand hryvnyas, said Mikhail Zabrodsky, People's Deputy of European Solidarity, on Facebook. Before that, the program for the development of Ukrainian artillery was canceled. "Life itself continues to offer topics for discussion. And again, one of the most important is the issue of purchasing the Dana-M2 self-propelled guns. I will immediately note for specialists in measuring barrel length in calibers and experts from the level of training of cadets-artillerymen of the Soviet spill - now we are not talking about the technical advantages of the Czech SPG and not about artillery, as a kind of troops in general. Today's topic - signs of banal corruption while trying to get such a tasty Czech contract. Last week we talked a lot about the actual disruption of the program for the development of domestic artillery. Everyone is well aware of how, for some unknown reason, all funds allocated for the purchase of artillery systems were planned to be directed to a dubious contract for the purchase of Dana-M2 at a price of 1.29 million euros per unit. It is in the price that the most interesting highlight of this problematic transaction lies.

   Two years ago, in 2018, the Czech armed company Excaliburarmy offered these SPGs for 812,000 euros! Apparently the trade was not going well. Several countries have purchased a certain number of units. And, lo and behold! The prospect of a Ukrainian contract for 26 units appears. And the price of an SPG, which has been most successfully sold in recent years in the post-Soviet space (caliber plays a role!), Takes off one and a half times!

 

image

 

Quote

   Below is a document - a commercial proposal of a Czech company from 2018. Let no one be confused by the name Dan M1-M, we are talking about the M2, the same vehicle. But it was Dana M1-M that was exported to other countries all these years, and only she can theoretically be purchased in accordance with the 345 Resolution of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine.

   What does this mean? And Dana M2 was not born specifically for the prospect of a contract with Ukraine, with the aim of how to explain the price increase by 1.5 times?

   And another question may arise during a detailed consideration of this transaction?

   ... The response from law enforcement agencies was not long in coming. At the end of November, the SBU opened criminal proceedings on these facts, under Article 111 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine - treason! Well, the recent searches in Ukrspetsexport are a vivid confirmation of active investigative actions on this implementation. ", - Zabrodsky writes.

 

   But not everything is so simple: Yuri Butusov clarified that an additional ammunition load should be purchased. The number of this ammunition is 5,000 conventional high-explosive 152-mm shells and 1,000 units of active-reactive pl. 2700 euro pcs.

 

   Although it still does not add up.

 

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   As follows from the data of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, published in the publication "Krasnaya Zvezda", the arsenal of long-range cruise missiles has increased 37 times in 8 years.

   We are talking about Iskander-M missiles, Caliber cruise missiles, and Kh-101 aircraft. This type of weapon is classified under the Strategic Non-Nuclear Forces section.

   In addition, from 2012 to 2020, the number of carriers of long-range cruise missiles increased 13 times.

 

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   Msta-SM entering service.

https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12332592@egNews

Quote

   18 new modernized self-propelled artillery howitzers "Msta-SM" entered service with the 150th motorized rifle division of the Southern Military District, stationed in the Rostov region.

/.../

   Target selection and gun aiming can be carried out using a special automated control system from the battery commander's control room, or directly on the howitzer. Guided projectiles and non-guided high-explosive fragmentation can be used for firing.

...

 

   And news about Koalitsiya-SV:

https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12333373@egNews

Quote

   Eighteen units of the Coalition-SV inter-service artillery complex will first enter service with the Taman Motorized Rifle Division of the Western Military District in 2021.

 

   "Coalition-SV" is equipped with a modern 152mm 2A88 cannon with a firing rate of more than 10 rounds per minute, as well as a modern system for automating the processes of gun aiming, target selection and navigation.

 

   The 152-mm self-propelled howitzer "Coalition-SV" is based on the platform of the T-90 tank and is designed to defeat the entire range of ground targets: command posts, communication centers, artillery and mortar batteries, armored vehicles, air defense and missile defense systems, as well as enemy manpower at a distance of up to 70 km.

 

   The workplaces of the gunner and commander of the self-propelled artillery unit "Coalition-SV" are equipped with digital displays and integrated into a single automated tactical control system, which allows to receive target designations via a digital communication channel, to carry out round-the-clock observation of the terrain, autonomous calculation of firing data and weather conditions.

   The armament of the howitzer also includes a 6S21 remote-controlled turret with a 12.7 mm Kord machine gun.

 

   Already in September of this year, the division, as part of the formation, will be involved in the Zapad-2021 international exercise.

 

 

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