ATGMs and RPGs for infantry - a thread for rebels around the world to choose their ATGM supplier.

[Zyklon]

[Krieger22]

Didn't get time on the Javelin trainer today? No problem!

 

[LoooSeR]

Forgot to post this here - Kornet missile salvo fire, "anti-APS" mode.

 

[N-L-M]

1 hour ago, Krieger22 said:

Didn't get time on the Javelin trainer today? No problem!

 

Homo Sapiens develops tools to hunt mammoths, Schoningen, 300,000BC [artist's impression]

[LoooSeR]

Quote

   Israeli Rafael and Australian VARLEY signed today an agreement on industrial partnership in creating joint ventures in Australia for the production of Spike missiles and other systems of the Australian army.
   According to Rafael, company will supply the Australian ground forces with advanced Advanced Spike LR2 (5 generation), which will be included in the "Boxer" from Reinmetal.

 

[LoooSeR]

Ru MoD having hard time with ID ATGMs. APILAS RPG became Javelin.

 

 

[N-L-M]

4 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

5 generation

What does this even mean?
1st gen=MCLOS
2nd gen=SACLOS
3rd gen= F&F
3.5 gen (Rafael term)= F&F, man-in-the-loop

4th gen=??
5th gen= Anti-APS??

[LoooSeR]

I will use power of this forum and ask @Mighty_Zuk to answer this, as he knows better. I am from Russia and we don't know any 3rd generation ATGMs either, and you ask me about 5th!

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, N-L-M said:

What does this even mean?
1st gen=MCLOS
2nd gen=SACLOS
3rd gen= F&F
3.5 gen (Rafael term)= F&F, man-in-the-loop

4th gen=??
5th gen= Anti-APS??

You got the first 3 right.

 

1st gen = MCLOS

2nd gen = SACLOS

3rd gen = F&F

4th gen = FO&U (Fire, Observe, and Update), multimode

5th gen = Networked

 

In the first 3 gens, each generation utilizes a completely different method of guidance. Not just increasing in automation, but the sensory package required to provide the guidance changes.

The 4th gen adds a mode of guidance via added datalink. Missiles like Spike have a TV channel, but it isn't really required technically, as you can also use the thermal seeker for that, as on the Javelin. 

 

The FO&U is Fire Observe and Update which is a man-in-the-loop addition. You steer the missile on your own but it can still do F&F on its own if you don't want to steer it.

Contrary to some claims, man in the loop (FO&U) does not bring you back to SACLOS. The missile still flies itself autonomously to the target that you locked on to, whether before launch or after launch, and you just steer it slightly to adjust its aim in case it's targeting a problematic section of the target, like the hull of a tank when you want to hit the turret, or a wall of a building when you want the window. SACLOS never offered autonomous engagement via missile-borne sensors.

With FO&U you can also do a partial LOAL. Why partial, you ask?

LOAL can only be completed with networking. Because you cannot actually see the target due to NLOS firing, you cannot lock on before the launch. 

You could do LOAL firing by just firing blind, going over a hill or any other obstacle that prevents LOS on target, with the use of a lofted trajectory of course, and then visually acquiring the target, locking on, and completing the firing mission.

Or to avoid wasting munitions, and fire more reliably, the missile can receive via a network, the coordinates of the target, and autonomously guide itself to these coordinates, which then opens up 2 options for the operators - Either rely solely on the 3rd party designator to complete the firing mission, or take over with the FO&U mode and guide the missile in its terminal stage.

 

The 5th gen is the only one that doesn't add a guidance mode. It is instead networked to a whole host of platforms with sensors via BMS.

It allows the operators to not only be at a completely different location from the missile launching units, but to also be completely disconnected from them.

In theory, it means the ATGMs don't even need dedicated operators of their own, and can be used as hives from which missiles are called upon by various units on the battlefield like tank crews, UAV operators, infantrymen, artillery-men etc etc.

 

Unlike 4th generation missiles it makes no fundamental and substantial addition to the missile's accuracy and effectiveness in the eyes of the end target, but it does make substantial structural changes to the force by allowing the application of a different doctrine. That is important.

It requires the user to be technologically advanced in other areas, particularly having a widely fielded and advanced enough BMS, unlike other generations of ATGMs that provided the full capabilities in just one package instead of utilizing technological solutions around the system, but when its potential is utilized even if not to the fullest, it creates a capability jump far more substantial than previous generations of missiles, so it most definitely warrants a generation of its own.

 

EDIT: I copied some of my previous arguments in the Tank-net.com forum, to make understanding things easier.

[Collimatrix]

I think that very fast beam-riding ATGMs are a generational improvement over wire-guided SACLOS types.  Things like Vikhr are a step in the right direction, but things like LOSAT would be much better.

[Mighty_Zuk]

5 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

I think that very fast beam-riding ATGMs are a generational improvement over wire-guided SACLOS types.  Things like Vikhr are a step in the right direction, but things like LOSAT would be much better.

They are an improvement for certain purposes, but not for all. They may become a liability as well, for example due to inability to loiter or do post-launch target discrimination. 

The improvements I listed, which are in line with the marketing of ATGM-making companies, are things that cannot be a liability over the previous generation. 

 

[LoooSeR]

13 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Ru MoD having hard time with ID ATGMs. APILAS RPG became Javelin.

 

 

Those idiots are serious that APILAS is Javelin.

 

[Ramlaen]

 

[LoooSeR]

2 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

 

Why you guys don't have a FCS sight for CG? Like, even we have those things in development for disposable RPGs.

 

And Belarus is working on such things for RPG-7

Spoiler

 

Somebody just fix a RPG-32 day/night sight to RPG-7

Spoiler

 

[LoooSeR]

 

 

[Ramlaen]

8 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Why you guys don't have a FCS sight for CG? Like, even we have those things in development for disposable RPGs.

 

Why buy expensive sight just for Carls if you existing inventory works?

[LoooSeR]

Looks like first combat use of South Korean Raybolt ATGM by Saudis in Yemen.

 

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

As a follow-on to the Spike LR 2, Rafael are unveiling the Spike ER 2.

 

Spike ER:

• Fiber-optic data-link.
• 8km range from air.
• 8km range from surface.
• Possibility to proceed engagement beyond 8km in F&F mode (no video feed or controls).
• 1,000mm penetration.
• Energy-efficient trajectory and moderate angle of attack. No Counter-APS.

Spike ER 2:

• RF data-link for air, and extended fiber-optic data-link for surface.
• 16km range from air.
• 10km range from surface.
• RF data-link ensures FO&U (LOBL) and F&S (Fire and Steer, LOAL) are preserved for the entirety of the energetic envelope of the missile.
• * 1,300mm penetration.
• * Counter-APS mode with steep dive.

 

* In the Spike ER 2 column I added some un-confirmed improvements that officially exist on the Spike LR 2 but were not yet mentioned on the Spike ER 2 version.

 

Janes: Rafael Unveils Spike ER 2.

[SH_MM]

The German army has issued a tender for the "Leichtes Wirkmittel 1800+" for the special forces. It shall be a lightweight fire-and-forget ATGM with multi-purpose warhead. Currently MBDA's Enforcer and Spike-SR are confirmed competitors.

 

[Zadlo]

On 8/31/2018 at 1:52 PM, Mighty_Zuk said:

As a follow-on to the Spike LR 2, Rafael are unveiling the Spike ER 2.

 

Spike ER:

• Fiber-optic data-link.
• 8km range from air.
• 8km range from surface.
• Possibility to proceed engagement beyond 8km in F&F mode (no video feed or controls).
• 1,000mm penetration.
• Energy-efficient trajectory and moderate angle of attack. No Counter-APS.

Spike ER 2:

• RF data-link for air, and extended fiber-optic data-link for surface.
• 16km range from air.
• 10km range from surface.
• RF data-link ensures FO&U (LOBL) and F&S (Fire and Steer, LOAL) are preserved for the entirety of the energetic envelope of the missile.
• * 1,300mm penetration.
• * Counter-APS mode with steep dive.

 

* In the Spike ER 2 column I added some un-confirmed improvements that officially exist on the Spike LR 2 but were not yet mentioned on the Spike ER 2 version.

 

Janes: Rafael Unveils Spike ER 2.

 

The first presentation of SPIKE-ER2 will be on Tuesday

[LoooSeR]

On 8/31/2018 at 11:07 PM, SH_MM said:

The German army has issued a tender for the "Leichtes Wirkmittel 1800+" for the special forces. It shall be a lightweight fire-and-forget ATGM with multi-purpose warhead. Currently MBDA's Enforcer and Spike-SR are confirmed competitors.

 

From not very well informed view, MBDA's weapon looks to be better choise for SFs. Spike SR on paper have less to offer than Enforcer. Enforcer have higher range, airbust capability (according to their site) and it is lighter.

 

What do you think?

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, LoooSeR said:

From not very well informed view, MBDA's weapon looks to be better choise for SFs. Spike SR on paper have less to offer than Enforcer. Enforcer have higher range, airbust capability (according to their site) and it is lighter.

 

What do you think?

Got data on range and weight? Because the Spike SR has evolved quite a lot so you can find different data on different variants still under the SR label.

 

But I don't see much merit to airburst in an ATGM. It's not something you'd want to spend on infantry.

[Valryon]

@Mighty_Zuk  Enforcer has the range from 100m to 2000m but during tests they were able to reach 2.9km. Launcher with missile weights 9kg and FCS(Dynahawk) is about 2kg.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Test launch of the Spike ER 2:

 

https://defense-update.com/20180902_spike_er2.html

 

Defense-update also say the missile will be showcased in MSPO in a bid to convince Poland to purchase it for its fleet of Mi-24 which are currently lacking ATGMs. Also, the Spike ER is already in use by a Mi-24 user.

[LoooSeR]

Umm... is something wrong with 4th wing?