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Anti-air thread: Everything that goes up must come down, and we'll help you go down


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16 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Didn't saw producer claiming that. Not sure how it will do that at 10 km either, or against targets that have low heat emissions in the first place, like drones.

These arent new technologies. SAAB also does not disclose the FCS of RBS-70 (which is somewhat simpler than Sosna), but they clearly state that the system is unjammable.

 

16 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Sosna launching missiles will have significant UV signature and will get into sector of laser turrets suppression/dazzling.

This still works like a DIRCM, but on a larger area (and I have to say, quite smart design!). This still cant affect guidance since the receiver unit is on the rear of the missile. 

Anyway. Here is the site of KB Tochmash, it is horribly translated to english, but still has useful information:

"8. EOCS has increased jamming immunity due to using information channels with narrow fields of sight and application of special signals processing algorithms in the automatic control unit of target acquisition and tracking considering the target signatures. Besides, it is impossible to distort laser spot beam rider guidance or to flash an optoelectronic sensor of a flying missile by the similar laser beam."

 

Additionally, there is a semiautomatic mode, when the system is controlled by the operator (just like RBS-70).

http://kbtochmash.com/press-eng/articles-eng/articles-eng_4.html

 

17 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

20 seconds is sometimes enough to get out of sight for low-flying object, especially if area have trees or other objects around launching platform like buildings.

I highly doubt. Around 20-25 secons is the maximum time for engagement, and it is the absolute worst case for the SAM. If the target is approaching, or if the system launches the missile in the NEZ, the time is considerably shorter. Average speed of the missile is 600m/s, thats 6km for 10 seconds. Such short time is enough only for some very basic evasive maneuver, nothing more. And remember, these missiles are quite hard to evade. For the old 9M311 of the Tunguska, max overload of the missile is 18gs. To give some idea, the old 3M9 missile of the Kub was capable of 15g maneuvers. In practice, this was notoriously hard to evade for strike aircrafts, loaded with weapons. And even if the aircraft is successful, its mission is still over, so the SAM did its work. 

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Austrian Orelikon 35mm Zwillingsfliegerabwehrkanonen 85 firing     

Some historical but relevant stuff. What could have been but was not. In Lešany museum near Prague you can find a prototype of Czechoslovak SPAAG Strop II. This system placed on a modified Dana chassi

Nothing is unjamable in a puristic point of view. What Looser meant is at least theoretically possible. If the launcher doesn't see the target, it can not guide the missile and the way how signal is transported to the missile is then irrelevant. It means that if the dazzler can blind the launcher platform than a missile without own seeker can't hit the target either. I'm not knowledgeable enough if systems like Vitebsk or President-S are able of that. Anyway very small percentage of active airfleets around the world has any sort of similar countermeasures. 

 

Sosna or RBS-70 definitely don't suffer with fast planes. Sosna officially can engage targets with speed up to 600 m/s (on approach I guess) which is definitely more than what the target is capable of within the envelope of the SAM system. For reference that is 2x higher engageable target speed than for Igla-S. 

 

Bolide (the latest missile from RBS-70) is able of 25G maneuvering. 

 

To be honest I'm hesitating about the choice of laser beam guided missiles for a MOBILE frontline SHORAD too. The problem is what Looser correctly points out - the launcher platform has to see the target all the time but a mobile system travellling with the frontline troops doesn't have a luxury to choose it's location at the time of action. It makes sense to place such system on the mountains or hills but if it travels with convoys who naturally try to hide themselves (in forest areas etc. rather than in the open) the system capabilities are seriously degraded. 

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5 hours ago, heretic88 said:

This still works like a DIRCM, but on a larger area (and I have to say, quite smart design!). This still cant affect guidance since the receiver unit is on the rear of the missile. 

   Example: in this case guidance channel between launch platform and missile also wasn't jammed:

   Again, i was speaking about FCS itself, not a system of signal transfer between launcher and missile. Which means that all this:

 

5 hours ago, heretic88 said:

Anyway. Here is the site of KB Tochmash, it is horribly translated to english, but still has useful information:

"8. EOCS has increased jamming immunity due to using information channels with narrow fields of sight and application of special signals processing algorithms in the automatic control unit of target acquisition and tracking considering the target signatures. Besides, it is impossible to distort laser spot beam rider guidance or to flash an optoelectronic sensor of a flying missile by the similar laser beam."

 

Additionally, there is a semiautomatic mode, when the system is controlled by the operator (just like RBS-70).

http://kbtochmash.com/press-eng/articles-eng/articles-eng_4.html

   is somewhat irrelevant. You can guide your missile precisely into weirdly shaped blob of IR countermeasures made by laser dazzlers on your screen, with automatic or operator control modes. If FCS or operator can't figure out where enemy plane is exactly, missile is not going to magically fix that. Laser beam not being disrupted isn't going to play a role in this situation.

   The only thing that can play a role is this part: "application of special signals processing algorithms in the automatic control unit of target acquisition and tracking considering the target signatures", which can mean anything, but i susepct it is simply a software that tracks target by processing image from thermal imager and tracking bunch of pixels of heat contrast object against a noticeably cooler background, like target tracker in FCS of Budget Cuts 3 do. 

 

5 hours ago, heretic88 said:

I highly doubt. Around 20-25 secons is the maximum time for engagement, and it is the absolute worst case for the SAM. If the target is approaching, or if the system launches the missile in the NEZ, the time is considerably shorter. Average speed of the missile is 600m/s, thats 6km for 10 seconds. Such short time is enough only for some very basic evasive maneuver, nothing more. And remember, these missiles are quite hard to evade. For the old 9M311 of the Tunguska, max overload of the missile is 18gs. To give some idea, the old 3M9 missile of the Kub was capable of 15g maneuvers. In practice, this was notoriously hard to evade for strike aircrafts, loaded with weapons. And even if the aircraft is successful, its mission is still over, so the SAM did its work. 

   I wrote about problems with SACLOS missiles guidance to moving target because of terrain around launch platform not always being perfectly flat featureless field, and you are speaking about evasive maneuvers. We are speaking about 2 entirely different problems.

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17 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

You can guide your missile precisely into weirdly shaped blob of IR countermeasures made by laser dazzlers on your screen, with automatic or operator control modes. If FCS or operator can't figure out where enemy plane is exactly, missile is not going to magically fix that. Laser beam not being disrupted isn't going to play a role in this situation.

I see two problems here:

First, the dazzler jamming can be filtered out based on the wavelenght.

Second, as I mentioned it numerous times, the presence of HOJ mode. All the FCS needs to do, is aim at the middle of the jamming source. This is not a new thing. Back then in the vietnam war, single aircraft could be shot down even if they used noise jamming. All the operators needed to do is to aim at the dead centre of the jamming signal. Of course this was rare occasion, because americans knew this well, so if all the planes (typically B-52s) in the formation used jamming, the operators were unable to discern the individual jamming bands on the indicators. 

In fact, the IRIS-T missile already employs DIRCCM, it simply guides itself with the aid of the jamming laser. (and if Im not mistaken the Verba is also resistant, but it uses different methods)

music-jam1021.jpg

 

17 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

 I wrote about problems with SACLOS missiles guidance to moving target because of terrain around launch platform not always being perfectly flat featureless field, and you are speaking about evasive maneuvers.

It can affect the engagement, but I do not think this is a serious problem, especially for a short ranged missile. If it wasnt a big deal for the RBS-70, why would it be for the Sosna? In fact, SACLOS (or even MCLOS) was quite fetishized by the brits, for example there was the Blowpipe, Javelin, Rapier, and the recent Starstreak.

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3 hours ago, heretic88 said:

I see two problems here:

First, the dazzler jamming can be filtered out based on the wavelenght.

Second, as I mentioned it numerous times, the presence of HOJ mode. All the FCS needs to do, is aim at the middle of the jamming source. This is not a new thing. Back then in the vietnam war, single aircraft could be shot down even if they used noise jamming. All the operators needed to do is to aim at the dead centre of the jamming signal. Of course this was rare occasion, because americans knew this well, so if all the planes (typically B-52s) in the formation used jamming, the operators were unable to discern the individual jamming bands on the indicators. 

In fact, the IRIS-T missile already employs DIRCCM, it simply guides itself with the aid of the jamming laser. (and if Im not mistaken the Verba is also resistant, but it uses different methods)

music-jam1021.jpg

   First, filtering out certain wavelenght is cool until you get to question which one to filter out. It is not like there are samples or library of counteraction lasers or IR jammers signatures, this is going to be a guesswork, in which both protection system designers and makers of AA system are playing.

 

  Second, game of simply aiming at source of jamming were over somewhere in end of Vietnam war. Was watching 2 years ago an interview with Soviet advisor to Vietcong, he worked with AA systems. Particular story that i remember was the way they were traying to protect radars from American anti-radar missile and how they were trying to outsmart each other in this race. Shooting at source of radar emissions was one of first steps in this race and it became quikcly outdated after Soviet advisor started to play around with radar "ray"/signals and guide missiles away from radar vehicles. 

 

3 hours ago, heretic88 said:

 

It can affect the engagement, but I do not think this is a serious problem, especially for a short ranged missile. If it wasnt a big deal for the RBS-70, why would it be for the Sosna? In fact, SACLOS (or even MCLOS) was quite fetishized by the brits, for example there was the Blowpipe, Javelin, Rapier, and the recent Starstreak.

   This was enough of a problem for Soviets to use F&F missile on Strelas instead of other, cheaper and easier to design/produce options.

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23 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Second, game of simply aiming at source of jamming were over somewhere in end of Vietnam war.

Oh not at all, not at all. This is a totally viable option. Just one example, from the western side: The MIM-104 Patriot initially lacked this capability. In 1986, one of the main addition of the PAC-1 upgrade was the HOJ mode for the missile against the increasingly more effective soviet jamming technology. 

In the vietnam war, the main problem was that in large B-52 formations, each plane carried powerful jammers, and all planes used them at the same time. So, on the indicators, the operator saw not a jamming "band" that was relatively easy to aim at the middle, but the whole screen was full of noise, it wasnt possible to determine the individual aircrafts. This worked brilliantly with old, mechanically scanned antennas, like the Dvina/Desna/Volhov and the Neva. However, the later systems all used monopulse radars, even old stuff like the Vega and the Krug, and they could precisely track the jamming source.

On 12/20/2020 at 10:11 PM, LoooSeR said:

This was enough of a problem for Soviets to use F&F missile on Strelas instead of other, cheaper and easier to design/produce options.

The problem was not that the launcher needs constant LOS to the target. Back then, they didnt have autotrackers, so a CLOS system required lots and lots of training to use effectively even against straight flying targets. Thats why these systems were horribly ineffective, and most designers avoided this guidance method. Why the british loved it? Good question. Anyway, this isnt a problem anymore for both the RBS-70NG and the Sosna. 

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12 hours ago, SH_MM said:

AMRAAM-ER is not identical with ESSM Block II though and ESSM Block II is not integrated into NASAMS. AMRAAM-ER uses a modified ESSM Block I missile body with the less capable and cheaper seeker from AMRAAM as well as the warhead and datalink antennas. ESSM Block II is a seeker, warhead and datalink upgrade only, so it directly moves in the opposite direction of AMRAAM-ER. Given the different requirements and natures of the datalink (i.e. ESSM Block II being integrated in AEGIS), an unmodified missile is probably incompatible with NASAMS.


Thanks for the detailed response. I believe NASAMs was tested with ESSM Blk I back in 2012 so I had assumed a move to ESSM Blk II should be possible - this may not have been a safe assumption. That said, given that Australia's CEATAC/MOUNT radars are derived from those used in the ANZAC Class ASMD upgrade (IIRC), I am still left wondering whether they may yet be able to provide the needed datalink to ESSM Blk II. This strikes me as desirable since - as you alluded to yourself - it is likely to be the most sophisticated missile of the bunch, while still being relatively affordable. 

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On 12/29/2020 at 12:41 PM, SH_MM said:

As far as I can say, being able to easily integrate further sensors (directly or via networking) and being able to spread multiple launchers over a greater distance (while using only a single TOC) is not a stand-out feature of NASAMS, but a normal feature common to medium/long range air defence systems. E.g. each IRIS-T SLM launcher unit can be positioned up to 20 kilometers away from the TOC. I haven't seen any exact figures for NASAMS, but as Kongsberg's official website speaks of "several kilometers" (rather than something like "dozens of kilometers"), I don't think it offers a significantly larger maximum distance between launchers and TOC than similar solutions.

 

Not only medium/long range. Even our RBS-70/70NG VSHORADS are networked with a data aquisition Retia ReVISOR radar which can be placed up to 20 km from the launcher, in this case basically a MANPADS on steroids. 

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Elta won Slovak tender for new 3D AD radars (medium, short, very-short range). Slovakia will buy six ELM-2084M-MMR, five ELM-2084S-MMR and six ELM-2138M. After Czechia and Hungary it's third Central European country which decided to buy Elta radars (logically all three neighbours can share certain part of service, training and mainteanance). 

https://www.armadninoviny.cz/slovensko-nakoupi-17-izraelskych-3d-radiolokatoru.html

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   Details on a new Optical station on modernised Tunguskas (2S6M1 "Tunguska-M1")

https://oborona.ru/includes/periodics/defense/2020/1025/161430323/detail.shtml

 

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   On the initiative of JSC "Ulyanovsk Mechanical Plant" in JSC "Scientific and Technical Center ELINS" within the framework of further modernization of the SPAAG, a thermal-television system (STT) for 2S6M1 was developed, designed to perform the following tasks:

 

- round-the-clock observation,

 

- visual and automatic detection and recognition of air, ground and surface objects in the visible and infrared ranges;

 

- automatic and semi-automatic tracking of air, ground and surface objects with the issuance of coordinates to the digital computer system of the SPAAG;

 

- stabilization of the line of sight in the vertical and horizontal planes;

 

- observation of the target while tracking the target by radar station;

 

- determination and transmission to the SPAAG system of the rocket coordinates relative to the line of sight.

 

image

 

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   STT is a completely digital vision system in which the reception, transmission, processing and output of the image are performed exclusively in digital form without intermediate transformations. As a result, the influence of external interference was minimized during the joint simultaneous operation of STT and other radio-electronic equipment of the SPAAG. Graphic information is displayed on a high-resolution color LCD.

   The STT has a built-in system ("black box") for automatic registration of various parameters of operation of parts of the product, including the gunner's control actions on the manipulator joystick and control panel.

 

   The most important task solved in STT is the creation of a rocket direction finder based on modern digital image processing methods. A feature of the product, which favorably distinguishes it from the closest domestic and foreign analogues, is that video images from the same camera, respectively, of a wide or narrow field of view, are used for direction finding of the rocket and target tracking. This makes it possible to increase the accuracy of targeting and to exclude routine procedures for aligning the optical axis of the direction finder relative to the optical axis of the sight.

   In addition, a special procedure for reading video frames ensures high noise immunity of the direction finder and detuning from the IR transponder radiation during automatic and especially semi-automatic target tracking.

 

   Target tracking algorithms implemented in STT also have the following features: automatic determination of the type of background target environment (air, ground, combined) and adaptation to it, channel integration (simultaneous target tracking on television and thermal imaging images), simultaneous tracking of priority and secondary targets, inertial tracking based on target trajectory analysis.

 

   STT completely replaces the 1A29M1 product and, having less weight and dimensions, allows you to free up additional space in the SPAAG turret. With the STT, the combat crew of the SPAAG receives a set of previously unavailable additional capabilities.

   For example, the ability to view the space around the SPAAG using a wide-field TV camera in an autonomous mode, separately from the turret drives and weapons, for the purpose of reconnaissance or maneuvering. There is a possibility of issuing digital video images from STT cameras to other consumers, including the driver.

 

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   In 2019, the letter "O1" was assigned to the design documentation of the product. The test results confirmed the declared characteristics of the STT, and showed their excess over the characteristics of the closest analogs when working in a complex background target environment and in the conditions of using false thermal noise sources.

 

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   The Israeli state defense concern "Rafael" announced the successful testing of a new generation of the Derby guided air defense missile at its base in the Ramon crater.

   Unlike previous generations, which were designed to be launched exclusively from aircraft, the new rocket can be launched from the ground. In addition, the missile is equipped with a two-stage engine that increases its range to 100 kilometers.

   The tests were carried out in the presence of journalists and other observers. The first rocket launched self-destructed three seconds after launch. The check showed that self-destruction followed due to a failure in the operation of the second stage of the engine and deviation from the given trajectory.

   Subsequent launches were deemed successful. Unlike most other products, Derby air defense missiles were not adopted by the IDF for budgetary reasons. This made it easier for "Raphael" to export, and Derby systems of various modifications are in service with the armies of Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Georgia, India, the Philippines, South Africa, and Singapore. Sales exceeded $ 1 billion.

 

 

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After the delivery of HİSAR-A +, our HİSAR-O + Medium Altitude Air Defense System successfully passed the farthest range and highest altitude test conducted in our country so far, by directly hitting and destroying the air target.

 

The target was hit at roughly 11-12 km altitude at roughly 40km range. The missile wasn't equipped with a live warhead (blue band on missile canister) and thus no explosion, but it did directly hit the target. Again we can see the second pulse of the booster kicking in at 00:50.

 

Both the A+ and O+ versions come with two way datalink and capability to switch targets during flight. Both of the systems are capable of guiding 12 missile to 6 targets at the same time.

 

The O+ variant will also have an active radar guided variant in the future. For now the Hisars have IIR guidance with the A+ variant having a stubby nose and the O+ and pointed nosecap to protect the missile seeker against heat and will only discard of the cap during later stages of the flight.

 

Rumored 15 A+ batteries and 30 O+ batteries are going to be purchased. This amount is enough to cover the entire Turkish ground forces with a divisional air defense capability under O+ umbrella with the A+ variant providing independent brigades with brigade level air defense. (30 O+ batteries=30 divisions=10 army corpse=3 armies with one corps (3 divisions) redundant. 15 A+ batteries provide independent brigades with brigade level air defense.)

 

In the future the Siper(120km) is going to provide for the corps level air defense. The Sungur(6km) manpads provides company level air defense and perhaps even on the battalion level.

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This isn't purelly anti-air, because Vera-NG can track land and sea targets too but I don't know where else to put it.

 

According to this article about recent CSG export to Indonesia it is written that Indonesia very recently put into operation two Vera-NG passive surveyllance systems.

https://www.armadninoviny.cz/uspechy-ceskeho-obranneho-prumyslu-v-indonesii.html

 

Location of the systems. The eastern one is allegedly able to cover the whole South China sea. The map is from the article. 

mapa_vera_1b.jpg

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A bit more on mating a Stinger tube to a Javelin CLU

 

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The Stinger/Lightweight CLU integration kit (SLK) includes a digital compass and a datalink to a soldier’s tactical radio. This radio was an Army provided AN/PRC-163 (which has only been adopted for SOF) in tests, though Raytheon also claims the link is compatible with the current standard issue AN/PRC-152 and 148. This datalink allows the approximate location of a target aircraft or drone to be displayed within the Lightweight CLU display. Arrows inside the display guide the gunner to the proper direction of the contact, using data from an inclinometer and the digital compass. The standard brackets inside the LWCLU used for Javelin firing are also replaced by a colored circle that represents the seeker’s approximate acquisition arc. An estimated “quality of lock” is provided to the Stinger gunner via the color of the circle, with red, amber, and green representing no lock, partial lock, and good lock respectively. This allows the Stinger gunner to judge the quality of lock without wasting precious seconds of BCU activation. IFF interrogation is handled through the standard Stinger system, although IFF data can also be passed through the datalink from radars.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/03/19/interview-details-about-raytheons-stinger-javelin-lwclu-integration/

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An interesting new radar from Retia. ReGUARD is light portable AESA 3D radar for guarding important objects or venues. The radar has only 66 kg weight. It is able of automatic classification of target (classes are fixed wing, rotary wing, drone, bird, ground object) at the distance up to 18 km and altitude up to 3 km. For example it is able to detect and classify the DJI Phantom at 6,5 km distance. It has a standardized ASTERIX output and can be therefore easily linked to a wider network. It can be placed stationary, on a vehicle or on a on a rotating mast.  

 

More here.

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